An owlbear gets 2 claw attacks and one bite attack.
Can the owlbear attempt 2 grabs on two different PCs if he hits with both of his claw attacks on 2 different PCs? A grab is at -20 and provokes no attack of opportunity I understand.
Once grabbed, then does the owlbear use his cmb (+14) to maintain the grapple? If successful I think he inflicts his 1d6+4 damage. If unsuccessful, then no attack? Does he lose his bite attack if grappling?
Can an owlbear grapple only one PC at a time?
Thanks for the help.
noblejohn wrote:
Can the owlbear attempt 2 grabs on two different PCs if he hits with both of his claw attacks on 2 different PCs?
Yes.
noblejohn wrote:
A grab is at -20 and provokes no attack of opportunity I understand.
It can be at -20 but doesn't have to. If he takes the -20 and succeeds he is not grappled otherwise he is grappled as well as the PC.
noblejohn wrote:
Once grabbed, then does the owlbear use his cmb (+14) to maintain the grapple?
Yes.
noblejohn wrote:
If successful I think he inflicts his 1d6+4 damage. If unsuccessful, then no attack?
If he successfully hits with the claw attack he does claw damage and can use grab to start the grapple. If he successfully starts the grapple he does not do additional damage this round (he does not constrict) but he may next round with another successful grapple.
noblejohn wrote:
Does he lose his bite attack if grappling?
Nope.
noblejohn wrote:
Can an owlbear grapple only one PC at a time?
Nope. See above.
Thanks for the awesome response. Very helpful. I do have one follow up question.
A grab is at -20 and provokes no attack of opportunity I understand.
It can be at -20 but doesn't have to. If he takes the -20 and succeeds he is not grappled otherwise he is grappled as well as the PC.
I don't understand this response. I thought if hit with a claw attack he roles at -20 to try and grab and then will grapple in the next turn. If he fails the -20 grab, then nothing happens I would think?
A grab can be at -20 but doesn't have to.
1. If the owlbear hits with a claw attack he does claw damage.
2. The owlbear can now choose to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an AOO using grab if the opponent is his size or smaller. If he does decide to grab he "has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition itself." If the owlbear fails the CMB check (whether or not it took the -20) it does not grapple the opponent at all.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
A creature with grab can grapple multiple creatures at once, one per each attack with grab. He wouldn't even have to take the -20 penalty to his CMB to do it (if humanoid, he may take a -4 penalty on successive checks for having less than two hands available, however).
He wouldn't be able to maintain the hold on all of them in the next round though (not unless he has multiple standard actions).
why would an owl bear grab instead of grapple? I am missing something.
Is grab for multiple opponents, but grapple is used for one opponent?
noblejohn wrote: why would an owl bear grab instead of grapple? I am missing something. Grab enables the owlbear to start a grapple without provoking an attack of opportunity and allows the owlbear the option of holding the opponent and not gaining the grappled condition itself by taking the -20.
Normally when you start a grapple it provokes an attack of opportunity that can cancel the grapple attempt (and hurt you) and you also gain the grappled condition if you succeed. The owlbear can avoid both of these negative effects by using grab.
It would never choose to not use grab but there are times when it can't use grab, like if an opponent is bigger than it. It may choose to not hold as part of the grab if it didn't want to risk the -20 though but if it did it would gain the grappled condition along with the opponent.
Lots of game terms here I know, maybe someone else can chime in with a more understandable answer. Think of grab as a better grapple. It was primarily designed for large tentacled creatures (like a kraken), that might help you picture what a grab does.
cibet44 wrote:
Grab enables the owlbear to start a grapple without provoking an attack of opportunity and allows the owlbear the option of holding the opponent and not gaining the grappled condition itself by taking the -20.
Normally when you start a grapple it provokes an attack of opportunity that can cancel the grapple attempt (and hurt you) and you also gain the grappled condition if you succeed. The owlbear can avoid both of these negative effects by using grab.
It would never choose to not use grab but there are times when it can't use grab, like if an opponent is bigger than it. It may choose to not hold as part of the grab if it didn't want to risk the -20 though but if it did it would gain the grappled condition along with the opponent.
Thank you for all of your responses, I think I am getting it. If you grab, you take a -20, but the opponent gets no attack of opportunity. Then you can hold the PC. If you are holding a PC, you can damage them in future rounds by passing a grapple check? Or are you simply not allowing the PC to move and you hit them with your normal attacks?
noblejohn wrote:
Thank you for all of your responses, I think I am getting it. If you grab, you take a -20, but the opponent gets no attack of opportunity. Then you can hold the PC. If you are holding a PC, you can damage them in future rounds by passing a grapple check? Or are you simply not allowing the PC to move and you hit them with your normal attacks?
That's basically the gist of it. Let me try to put it in the correct game terms for you...
I'll put the actual game terms in italics. This means the word is actually meaningful as far as the rules go and I'm not just using it to describe something.
Grab is a special ability that some creatures have. Not everything can grab. If a creature can grab it will be listed in it's stat block (like the owlbear does). The grab ability works as described above but it is not really optional, the creature either grabs when it tries to grapple or doesn't. The creature does have the option to take the -20 on the CMB check as part of the grab and it gains the bonuses and penalties as described above if it does. The creature can also choose to not grapple at all when it does hit an opponent, if it chooses not to start a grapple the grab ability doesn't do anything.
Once a creature is grappled its movement and other options are certainly limited and, yes, they can be damaged in subsequent rounds with a successful CMB check (as well as other ways such as constrict).
The -20 is separate from the the no attack of opportunity.
The Grab ability grants three bonuses to the owlbear.
1) When it hits with a claw attack, it can choose to make a grapple attempt on a foe of its size or smaller as a free action. Making this grapple attempt does not provoke an attack of opportunity.
2) It can choose to only grapple with the appendage that hit (in this case a claw) instead of it's whole body. Doing so gives it a -20 on its check to start the grapple, but it does not gain the grappled condition and can fight normally with its other attacks.
3) The owlbear gains a +4 bonus on combat manuever checks to start and maintain a grapple.
Kalshane wrote: The -20 is separate from the the no attack of opportunity.
The Grab ability grants three bonuses to the owlbear.
1) When it hits with a claw attack, it can choose to make a grapple attempt on a foe of its size or smaller as a free action. Making this grapple attempt does not provoke an attack of opportunity.
2) It can choose to only grapple with the appendage that hit (in this case a claw) instead of it's whole body. Doing so gives it a -20 on its check to start the grapple, but it does not gain the grappled condition and can fight normally with its other attacks.
3) The owlbear gains a +4 bonus on combat manuever checks to start and maintain a grapple.
I thought this would be easier! Thanks for helping me.
So if the Owlbear Grabs - the PC is grappled, but the Owlbear is not in a grappled state. Does the Owlbear damage the 1 player that is grabbed with a successful grapple role vs PC CMD? And the the OB gets to attack with its bite and other claw on either that same PC or other PCs?
Thanks again.
noblejohn wrote:
I thought this would be easier! Thanks for helping me.
So if the Owlbear Grabs - the PC is grappled, but the Owlbear is not in a grappled state. Does the Owlbear damage the 1 player that is grabbed with a successful grapple role vs PC CMD? And the the OB gets to attack with its bite and other claw on either that same PC or other PCs?
Thanks again.
Hmm. I may have made a mistake in my previous post. The -20 allows the owlbear to avoid the grappled condition, but it looks like he still needs to use a standard action to maintain the grapple. Creatures with Grab under the D&D 3.5 rules were a bit nastier, as taking that -20 allowed them to continue to fight normally while grappling someone with one appendage. It doesn't appear to work that way in Pathfinder, so I apologize for the confusion.
Here's how it would work in Pathfinder:
Scenario 1: Owlbear hits Biff the Barbarian with hits claw attack. Because of its Grab ability, the Owlbear can now make a free grapple check on Biff without provoking an attack of opportunity. The Owlbear rolls its CMB of +14 to grapple vs. Biff's CMD. If it succeeds Biff is grabbed, and both Biff and the owlbear have the grappled condition. This ends the owlbear's turn.
On Biff's turn, he can attempt to escape the Owlbear's grapple, or perform any of the actions listed under "If you are Grappled" in the rulebook.
On the Owlbear's turn, if Biff hasn't escaped, it can use a standard action to continue the grapple, making a CMB check vs. Biff's CMD and perform any of the actions listed under "Grapple" in the rulebook as part of its standard action.
Alternatively, it can let Biff go as a free action at the start of its turn and perform any actions it would be normally allowed to.
Scenario 2: Owlbear hits Biff the Barbarian with his claw attack. Because of his Grab ability, the Owlbear can now make a free grapple check on Biff without provoking an attack of opportunity.
The Owlbear wants to only hold Biff with its claw and avoid the Grappled condition, so it rolls its CMB of +14(-20) for a total of -6 to grapple vs. Biff's CMD. If it succeeds Biff is grabbed, but the owlbear can still attack with its remaining claw and bite against any PC in range, including Biff.
On Biff's turn, he can attempt to escape the Owlbear's grapple, or perform any of the actions listed under "If you are Grappled" in the rulebook.
On the Owlbear's turn, if Biff hasn't escaped, it can use a standard action to continue the grapple, making a CMB check at -20 vs. Biff's CMD and perform any of the actions listed under "Grapple" in the rulebook as part of its standard action.
Or again, it could release Biff as a free action and act normally.
Perfect, thanks. I don't know why I had so much trouble with that one.
noblejohn wrote: Perfect, thanks. I don't know why I had so much trouble with that one. That would be because the Grapple rules are a pain to work with, really. It's perfectly normal to be confused. We all are or were at some point because of those.
As an aside, please do note that Owlbears main mission in life is to shred low-level character into bloody pieces. Be careful around those, whether you're a PC or the GM, those things can be nasty for their CR.
Valfen wrote: noblejohn wrote: Perfect, thanks. I don't know why I had so much trouble with that one. That would be because the Grapple rules are a pain to work with, really. It's perfectly normal to be confused. We all are or were at some point because of those.
True. This is because, for some reason that I have never been able to figure out, someone decided grapple needed to be a complex multi-step process that (now with PF) includes tracking a new condition and new stats.
Why grapple is simulation but every other form of combat in the game is abstract I have no idea. I wish PF would have dropped the grapple rules entirely instead of expanding them.
In fact I think all the combat maneuvers including trip, charge, bull rush, overrun, are all unnecessarily simulationist. They just complicate the game and are only applicable in low-level humanoid on humanoid fights. It's like the whole system of combat maneuvers (going all the way back to 3.0) was designed in a vacuum and for a diffrent game.
A good tactic for the owlbear would be to release any grapples at the beginning its turn and attack (with grab) and hope to re-establish. On its initiative it gets the full attack option, on PC's initiative they are potentially (depending on the rolls)) stuck with grappled condition.
cibet44 wrote: Valfen wrote: noblejohn wrote: Perfect, thanks. I don't know why I had so much trouble with that one. That would be because the Grapple rules are a pain to work with, really. It's perfectly normal to be confused. We all are or were at some point because of those.
True. This is because, for some reason that I have never been able to figure out, someone decided grapple needed to be a complex multi-step process that (now with PF) includes tracking a new condition and new stats.
Why grapple is simulation but every other form of combat in the game is abstract I have no idea. I wish PF would have dropped the grapple rules entirely instead of expanding them.
In fact I think all the combat maneuvers including trip, charge, bull rush, overrun, are all unnecessarily simulationist. They just complicate the game and are only applicable in low-level humanoid on humanoid fights. It's like the whole system of combat maneuvers (going all the way back to 3.0) was designed in a vacuum and for a diffrent game. Interesting you would say this - I was thinking that these combat maneuvers give players more strategic options - rather than just running up and hitting with your sword, or shooting with a bow. Now you can try something different. I guess that is a discussion for a different thread though.
The Bald Man wrote: A good tactic for the owlbear would be to release any grapples at the beginning its turn and attack (with grab) and hope to re-establish. On its initiative it gets the full attack option, on PC's initiative they are potentially (depending on the rolls)) stuck with grappled condition. Thanks for taking the time to point out this tactic. I like having and thinking about combat options.
noblejohn wrote: Perfect, thanks. I don't know why I had so much trouble with that one. You're welcome. And as others have said, the grapple rules are needlessly complex in places. (Note my confusion above about what the -20 actually allowed the owlbear to do.)
The Bald Man wrote: A good tactic for the owlbear would be to release any grapples at the beginning its turn and attack (with grab) and hope to re-establish. On its initiative it gets the full attack option, on PC's initiative they are potentially (depending on the rolls)) stuck with grappled condition. Yup. Especially since PF nerfed (Improved) Grab to where taking a -20 to only use one appendage is only useful in the initial round of the grapple.
It's kind of counter-intuitive. Realistically the owlbear should be more dangerous once it gets a hold of someone, but it actually does less damage maintaining a grapple than it does just dropping the PC and trying to shred them.
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