Weapon focus (grapple).


Rules Questions

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Garrote is desigened for grappling. Fist knees and headbutts are not. Not that your skill is useless remeber to take imp grapple you need IUS so it helps in that your able to grapple without getting hit back.

Grand Lodge

Okay, naga(or goblin snake) with weapon focus(unarmed strike) grapples man. Does he get the bonus?


First they dont have Unarmed strikes they have natural attacks see below.

Some creatures do not have natural attacks. These creatures can make unarmed strikes just like humans do. See Table: Natural Attacks by Size for typical damage values for natural attacks by creature size.

Now however if they had Final Embrace they would apply it with the natural attack that gained grab so for a dark Naga for instance probably weapon focus bite.

P.S. Still wondering about the Whip thing.

Grand Lodge

All creatures, with a corporeal body, can make an unarmed strike. This was so even in 3.5. They even did a Fiendish Gelatinous Cube Monk in the Elite Opponents article:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/eo/20060922a


Well thats news to me thanks bbt.

It would still be a wasted feat for the Naga who would need to pick up IUS and Imp Grap to grapple without provoking when they can get one feat and make their naturals work better.

Just take wp (focus) Grapple if you really think you need the +1 CMB when grappling.


I can say that this issue has definitely confused me as well,
although Jiggy's post pretty well sums up the functioning of things per RAW.
afaik, you can take weapon spec grapple, but it only applies when doing damage with grapple itself (usually equal to your unarmed or natweapon dmg).

How things stack, or don't, when multiple weapon focuses/specs may apply
(wf/spec man-catcher or whip and grapple, for instance) isn't clear to me. For that reason I think it works better to say weapon focus/spec: trip/sunder/other maneuvers DONT exist, ESPECIALLY if they are normally deliverable via weapon....

On that score, I'm not 100% sure of Trip's status, if unarmed trip means using unarmed strike to deliver a trip (meaning you still provoke an AoO even though you have Improved Trip, unless you also have Imp UAS) or there IS a grapple-like non-weapon trip ON TOP OF weapon-delivered trips (incl UAS since you dont need the trip quality to use a weapon)

W

Grand Lodge

Unless using a grapple weapon, natural attack, or spell, I see the only thing that is used in a grapple, is an unarmed strike.


as already written here, on a rules basis, grapple doesnt use UAS, which is consistent with weapon focus: grapple's existence in parallel to wf:uas..

Imp UAS is a pre-req of Imp Grapple and in 3.5, UAS was normally used to make the Touch attack leading to STR check (both of which CMB/CMD model) so you could say it SHOULD, but it doesn't use UAS per RAW.

I do think this could be made clearer in the rules, including stuff like fighter weapon groups, where grapple shows up in neither close, natural or even it's own special group (along with bullrush, push, etc?)

Grand Lodge

With SKR suggesting that there may be errata, and the other evidence, it seems RAI. It does seem that there is evidence that is not RAW.


In fact bbt by your arguement every combat manuver benefits from wp focus UAS since every single one of them can be done using your body and not a weapon.

Grand Lodge

Talonhawke wrote:

In fact bbt by your arguement every combat manuver benefits from wp focus UAS since every single one of them can be done using your body and not a weapon.

In a sense, yes.


i think one issue is the action needed to make a cmb attempt.
'in place of an (any) attack' obviously (or not) uses a weapon or UAS,
but you can actually have separate action requirements while still using a weapon to deliver the cmb.

i'm also not sure if by RAW you need Imp Trip AND Imp UAS to not provoke when making unarmed trips (trips are delivered by attacks/weapons, Imp Trip negates the AoO for non-improved Trips, but does nothing about an AoO from using non-improved UAS to make an attack, whether attack for dmg, trip, other maneuvers, etc)


Doesnt that seem to go way outside the power of one feat giving a +1 to all combat manuevers. And dont even get me started on how this makes Lorewarden fighter who might fight unarmed the unbeatable masters of combat manuvers.

+2 wpfocus
+6 from weapon training and dualing gloves.
+8 from his class
+5 from his enhancements to UAS
+20 from BAB

@20th level that +41 before str to any combat manuver he makes.

Where as a whip guy get it only to disarm and trip and maybe reposition and grapple.
Most other weapons choices only one of these. And he is the only one getting more than a 28 on bull rush steal feint and what not before feats.

Grand Lodge

Whip has reach, and is much easier to enchant. There are combat maneuvers that do not use an unarmed strike, like sunder. In the end, if the weapon is what you are using to perform the maneuver has a bonus, your cmb roll should reflect that. By the way, late game, combat maneuvers are rather weak in general. Monster cmd rises way faster than any cmb based build could keep up with.


grapple is by default screwed by the RAW since you can't easily get fighter weapon training to it in any way. over-run is in the same boat, bullrush is a bit better since it says in place of attack, i.e. using weapon, when charging, and other class options like barbarian knockback exist. ...So to say that using UAS for those suddenly makes normal attack bonuses possible (like normal attacks and the explicitly weapon-using maneuvers like trip, sunder) seems a bit silly of an argument against. but per current RAW I wouldn't say it does (or those other maneuvers)


Why can't I sunder unarmed? (Honestly asking couldn't find anything)

Grand Lodge

CMD of 71 is what high level characters will have to deal with. My suggestion as to what is RAI would not create anything gamebreaking. I see how it may not be RAW, but I no have evidence to prove that it isn't RAI.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

blackbloodtroll wrote:
CMD of 71 is what high level characters will have to deal with. My suggestion as to what is RAI would not create anything gamebreaking. I see how it may not be RAW, but I no have evidence to prove that it isn't RAI.

As has been noted (maybe you missed it?) the aforementioned blog post makes allowances for the GM to rule that in a certain situation a weapon (including unarmed strike) might apply to a maneuver that doesn't benefit from a weapon by default. I don't think you'd have a hard time convincing a GM to put WF:US into that category for your grapples.

Basically, if you're talking about PFS, expect table variation. If you're talking about a home game, then just ask your GM to let you, and if they're not a Nazi, you're probably fine.

Liberty's Edge

I have only skimmed this thread so apologies if my input has been superceded by something official.

If in Pathfinder there are such things as Grapple Weapons, then perhaps its a case of Weapon Focus (Grappling) cutting across horizontally, whilst Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike), Weapon Focus (<weapon name>) etc cut vertically.

I.e. with Weapon Focus (<Grappling Weapon Name>) you get a +1 to attacks with that weapon and to attempts to grapple with that weapon and also attempts to trip with that weapon. However without that weapon the feat is useless.

Whereas Weapon Focus (Grappling) would get you a +1 to CMB checks when grappling, and that bonus would apply whether you are grappling unarmed or with a grappling weapon (and any grappling weapon).

If you have both Weapon Focus (Grappling) and Weapon Focus (<Grappling Weapon Name>) then they wouldn't stack.

Does that make sense?


Hve this been oficially settled? I would say that the only way to add enhacement bonus to grapple are with with whip mastery and hamatula strike, and no unarmed strikes, but i do not really know.

Grand Lodge

I am surprised to see this necro'd.

Then again, we have some weird rules updates lately, so it's a valid curiosity.


Another thing I think would be nice, if this isn't just an error, is...
add "grapple" to some of the fighter weapon training groups (close and/or monk and/or natural). I think it's reasonable that part of the fighter's training could be in improving his grappling.

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