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The Archer Archetype for Fighters allow you to perform combat maneuvers at range.
While most of the listed combat maneuvers are kinda clear cut; you make the combat maneuvers as part of an attack or a AO, the Trip, combat maneuver is kinda confusing.
Usually Trip is done in place of a Melee Attack, and if you fail by 10 or more you get knocked prone instead.
But how does this work when applied by Trick Shot?
Do you still get knocked prone if you fail by +10?
Am I just looking this from a logic vs rules point of view?
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Also for Grapple, a successful grapple usually means the target is moved next to the Grappler, but since this is done by an arrow... where is the Grappler?
Do I mark a square next to the target as the "Grappler" hence the "break the arrow" to free part of trick shot? Or do I move the target next to me?
Help?
The grappler is the arrow. Presumably it's in the target's square, but I guess it could also be adjacent. Either way, target stays still.
I wouldn't get the grapple trick, since there's no text otherwise, you're giving up a full attack to use it as a standard action against someone in close range. Most likely he could not have full attacked you. You could easily fail the CMB check (especially with that -4), he will almost assuredly destroy the arrow. So instead of trading a full attack for a charge (most likely), you're using your turn for an effect that best case scenario you both just wasted your turns, worse case scenario does nothing.
If it were 3E rules and grappling meant loss of dex to AC AND you had a rogue ally, I could see using it...maybe. But as is, it just seems so pointless to ever use.
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The grappler is the arrow. Presumably it's in the target's square, but I guess it could also be adjacent. Either way, target stays still.
I wouldn't get the grapple trick, since there's no text otherwise, you're giving up a full attack to use it as a standard action against someone in close range. Most likely he could not have full attacked you. You could easily fail the CMB check (especially with that -4), he will almost assuredly destroy the arrow. So instead of trading a full attack for a charge (most likely), you're using your turn for an effect that best case scenario you both just wasted your turns, worse case scenario does nothing.
If it were 3E rules and grappling meant loss of dex to AC AND you had a rogue ally, I could see using it...maybe. But as is, it just seems so pointless to ever use.
I was thinking of combining it with the Combat Patrol and Combat Reflexes feats to become a battlefield controller.
Since the Archer Archetype does not provoke AO when making attacks with a bow, I thinking of playing it more like a normal fighter, but with range.
So by using Combat Patrol, I can make a "dead zone" where I can stop enemies from moving closer to my party.
Can this even work?
How are you using the grapple trick shot on an AoO, though? You can only replace attacks with trip, disarm, and (arguably) sunder. Everything else is a standard. So it's not compatible at all. You could wait till Fighter 11 for Pin Down feat (though I would NEVER put off Improved Precise Shot, even for just one level) to sort of do what you're seeking. But...I'm not sure the Combat Patrol / Snap Shot combo works so well. In fact, just a few days ago I tried making a hypothetical build using them. Even going Human (I'm loathe to not be a low-light or darkvision race when my whole schtick is ranged combat) and dipping Divine Hunter Paladin 1 to help with the immediate feat load, I found it pretty feat starved at early levels, not gaining many feats when they first became available, BAB / Fighter level-wise. Combat Patrol requires 2 pretty worthless feats; Snap Shot requires Rapid Shot, which if you're doing combat patrol you won't be using. All to threaten, by level 10, a 25 ft area. A level 1 Fighter with a reach weapon and Enlarged threatens 20 ft.
But, if it'll help you, here are my level and feat progressions for the hypothethical builds:
First is AoO-focused with Combat Patrol and not using the Archer archetype. I guess if using it you can swap out Point Blank Master at level 8 and be less feat starved. The thing is, end game you run out of useful feats, probably best to stop being a Fighter at that point. But low levels are tight.
1 Point Blank Shot
1 Precise Shot [Paladin]
1 Rapid Shot [Human]
2 Deadly Aim [Fighter]
3 Weapon Focus
3 Dodge [Fighter]
5 Mobility
5 Weapon Specialization [Fighter]
5 *Deadly Aim → Point Blank Master* [Fighter]
7 Snap Shot
7 Combat Patrol [Fighter]
9 Improved Snap Shot
9 Combat Reflexes [Fighter]
11 Improved Precise Shot
11 Deadly Aim [Fighter]
13 Pin Down
13 Clustered Shots [Fighter]
15 Manyshot
16 Stunning Assault [Fighter]
17 Greater Snap Shot
18 Penetrating Strike [Fighter]
18 *Clustered Shots → Greater Penetrating Strike* [Fighter]
19 ???
20 ??? [Fighter]
2nd build I did use Archer achetype to (in the long run) save a feat on PBM, and further saved feats by ignoring the entire Combat Patrol feat line. It's basically a normal archer, who also picks up Improved Snap Shot and Pin Down to halt foes from approaching him or (more rarely, if facing casters and "tanking") leaving. He's still Rapid Shotting every turn, he just also has some battlefield control ability. I think it works better, though it runs out of useful feats even sooner!
1 Point Blank Shot
1 Precise Shot [Human]
1 Rapid Shot [Fighter]
2 Deadly Aim [Fighter]
3 Weapon Focus
4 Weapon Specialization [Fighter]
4 *Deadly Aim → Point Blank Master* [Fighter]
5 Deadly Aim
6 Manyshot [Fighter]
7 Snap Shot
8 Clustered Shots [Fighter]
8 *Point Blank Master → Combat Reflexes* [Fighter]
9 Improved Snap Shot
10 Greater Weapon Focus [Fighter]
11 Improved Precise Shot
12 Pin Down [Fighter]
13 Greater Weapon Specialization
14 ??? [Fighter]
15 ???
16 Penetrating Strike [Fighter]
16 *Clustered Shots → Greater Penetrating Strike* [Fighter]
17 ???
18 ??? [Fighter]
19 ???
20 ??? [Fighter]
If that helps you at all.
No problem, I just happened to be considering this already.
You don't need Agile Maneuvers. You're attacking with your bow, which already uses dex to modify the attack roll, so the trick shots would already use dex to calculate CMB. Same as a person with weapon finesse tripping someone with a leg sweep (unarmed can be finessed).
Sure.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Combat-Maneuvers
A combat maneuver is an attack, melee attack, basically. It uses strength. But it's also modified by any benefits/effects the weapon you're using to perform the maneuver (if any) brings to the table.
The FAQ for Weapon Finesse clarifies that if you're using dexterity to modify your attack roll instead of strength, you use it for your CMB for any maneuver you're using that finesseable weapon for:
It depends on what combat maneuver you're attempting. Disarm, sunder, and trip are normally the only kinds of combat maneuvers in which you’re actually using a weapon to perform the maneuver, and therefore the weapon’s bonuses apply to the roll. Therefore, if you're attempting a disarm, sunder, or trip maneuver, you can apply your Dex bonus instead of your Str mod on the combat maneuver check (assuming you're using a finessable weapon, of course). For other combat maneuvers, you use the normal rule for determining CMB (Str instead of Dex).
The Agile Maneuvers feat applies to all combat maneuvers, not just disarm, sunder, and trip, so it is still a useful option for a Dex-based creature that uses combat maneuvers.
Since you're making all of your combat maneuvers with shots from the bow, you're already using dex, so Agile Maneuvers is unnecessary.
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Thanks for the clarification, StreamOfTheSky.
Now I just need to get my game group to understand it. There are so many rules and different interpretations that my group often get them confused.
I fear they may insist that CMB uses STR only, so without Agile Maneuvers, I can't add my dex...
In any case, thanks for all the help! Especially on what feats to get and swap at each level! The details really helped!
Sure.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Combat-Maneuvers
** spoiler omitted **A combat maneuver is an attack, melee attack, basically. It uses strength. But it's also modified by any benefits/effects the weapon you're using to perform the maneuver (if any) brings to the table.
The FAQ for Weapon Finesse clarifies that if you're using dexterity to modify your attack roll instead of strength, you use it for your CMB for any maneuver you're using that finesseable weapon for:
** spoiler omitted **
Since you're making all of your combat maneuvers with shots from the bow, you're already using dex, so Agile Maneuvers is unnecessary.
That 3rd-party site is wholly unofficial and has little to no bearing on the existing rules. What's more, bows are not finessible.
I see nothing that says you would use your Dexterity modifier in this instance.
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Sure.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Combat-Maneuvers
** spoiler omitted **A combat maneuver is an attack, melee attack, basically. It uses strength. But it's also modified by any benefits/effects the weapon you're using to perform the maneuver (if any) brings to the table.
The FAQ for Weapon Finesse clarifies that if you're using dexterity to modify your attack roll instead of strength, you use it for your CMB for any maneuver you're using that finesseable weapon for:
** spoiler omitted **
Since you're making all of your combat maneuvers with shots from the bow, you're already using dex, so Agile Maneuvers is unnecessary.
That 3rd-party site is wholly unofficial and has little to no bearing on the existing rules. What's more, bows are not finessible.
I see nothing that says you would use your Dexterity modifier in this instance.
If this is so, can I still use Dex IF I have the Agile Maneuvers feat to perform Combat Maneuvers using my Bow as per the Archer Archetype's Trick Shot (Ex) ability?
Agile Maneuvers ought to do the trick, yes.
In the core rulebook on the page about Combat maneuvers it says
When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver,
make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your
normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have
on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These
bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to
perform the maneuver. The DC of this maneuver is your
target’s Combat Maneuver Defense. Combat maneuvers
are attack rolls, so you must roll for concealment and
take any other penalties that would normally apply to an
attack roll.
This makes me think that using a bow to do combat maneuvers would use dex in place of strength.
The rules also state that your CMB is equal to your base attack bonus + your strength modifier + size modifier.
The passage you are quoting is talking about adding enhancement bonuses, weapon focus bonuses, disarm bonuses (for disarm weapons), and things of that nature.
It technically does nothing to change what makes up your CMB bonus (though feats and abilities like Agile Maneuvers do).
Sure.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Combat-Maneuvers
** spoiler omitted **A combat maneuver is an attack, melee attack, basically. It uses strength. But it's also modified by any benefits/effects the weapon you're using to perform the maneuver (if any) brings to the table.
The FAQ for Weapon Finesse clarifies that if you're using dexterity to modify your attack roll instead of strength, you use it for your CMB for any maneuver you're using that finesseable weapon for:
** spoiler omitted **
Since you're making all of your combat maneuvers with shots from the bow, you're already using dex, so Agile Maneuvers is unnecessary.
That 3rd-party site is wholly unofficial and has little to no bearing on the existing rules. What's more, bows are not finessible.
I see nothing that says you would use your Dexterity modifier in this instance.
Considering the PFSRD has the exact same information as the PRD, I think it has plenty of bearing on the existing rules. What's more-so, the PFSRD has reprinted the stats of nearly every rule in the official and3rd party books, and, every once in awhile, finds a mistake. While they won't correct the mistake in the printed stats, they will give a suggestion on the correct stats off to the side. I don't have any specific examples off the top of my head, and I'm not going to go browsing through the PFSRD to find some either, so don't bother asking.
For every FAQ, Errata, rule's interpretation etc, the PFSRD will link to the information it was pulled from, and reprint it word for word on the PFSRD. Just because it is a 3rd party site, does not mean it isn't correct.
Anyway, the Weapon Finesse FAQ does state only Disarm, Trip, and Sunder maneuvers can normally be attempted using a weapon and can therefore be modified using Dex instead of Str with a Dex weapon, but the Archer subtype can use his bow to perform maneuvers such as trip or grapple. I would rule that when using the bow, the Archer uses his Dex to perform his maneuvers, but if he isn't using a bow, he has to use his normal CMB, which would be calculated from his Str unless he has Agile Maneuvers.
Yah, I purposely linked to d20pfsrd in this case because it has the FAQ right there.
Anyway, the Weapon Finesse FAQ does state only Disarm, Trip, and Sunder maneuvers can normally be attempted using a weapon and can therefore be modified using Dex instead of Str with a Dex weapon, but the Archer subtype can use his bow to perform maneuvers such as trip or grapple. I would rule that when using the bow, the Archer uses his Dex to perform his maneuvers, but if he isn't using a bow, he has to use his normal CMB, which would be calculated from his Str unless he has Agile Maneuvers.
This. The FAW tells us two important things:
1) If your weapon uses Dex to modify attack rolls and you're using it to deliver a combat maneuver, you use Dex instead of Str.2) Normally only Disarm, Trip, and Sunder can be done with a weapon.
Archer Fighter is not normal though, it is a special case. He delivers all of his combat maneuvers done from range via his bow, even grapple and bull rush, etc... So, it is an exception to #2, but #1 still applies, nothing has contradicted it.
If it's actually different than the prd, I'm ok with that being called out. But it is dead on accurate here. I can think of examples where the d20pfsrd is wrong, though.
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The rules also state that your CMB is equal to your base attack bonus + your strength modifier + size modifier.
The passage you are quoting is talking about adding enhancement bonuses, weapon focus bonuses, disarm bonuses (for disarm weapons), and things of that nature.
It technically does nothing to change what makes up your CMB bonus (though feats and abilities like Agile Maneuvers do).
Here's something a bit more "official" for you (in addition to the Official FAQ):
BTW, this also means if you're using a finesse weapon to make a disarm, sunder, or trip, you should use your Dex instead of Str when calculating your CMB for the check.
If you read the linked post, you'll see that the "this" from "this also means" is the passage in question that you say is only talking about enhancement bonuses and whatnot.
There was no discussion in that thread (that I recall) about Trick Shot or other ranged maneuvers, but since Weapon Finesse applies, that sets a pretty strong precedent to suggest you'd use DEX when maneuvering at range with your bow.
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The rules also state that your CMB is equal to your base attack bonus + your strength modifier + size modifier.
The passage you are quoting is talking about adding enhancement bonuses, weapon focus bonuses, disarm bonuses (for disarm weapons), and things of that nature.
It technically does nothing to change what makes up your CMB bonus (though feats and abilities like Agile Maneuvers do).
Here's something a bit more "official" for you (in addition to the Official FAQ):
BTW, this also means if you're using a finesse weapon to make a disarm, sunder, or trip, you should use your Dex instead of Str when calculating your CMB for the check.If you read the linked post, you'll see that the "this" from "this also means" is the passage in question that you say is only talking about enhancement bonuses and whatnot.
There was no discussion in that thread (that I recall) about Trick Shot or other ranged maneuvers, but since Weapon Finesse applies, that sets a pretty strong precedent to suggest you'd use DEX when maneuvering at range with your bow.
This feels like one of those "logic" vs "rules" questions....
Is there any where to post/request an official clarification on this?
(the above linked thread is months old.)
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This feels like one of those "logic" vs "rules" questions....
How so?
"Logic" says that your STR never factors into your usage of a bow (except for how hard the arrow hits, in some cases), so regardless of how precise or convoluted your shot is, it should be based on DEX.
"Rules" says that DEX is applied if the weapon being used is using DEX due to Weapon Finesse, which strongly implies that you'd do the same if the weapon uses DEX naturally.
In what way do you feel "rules" and "logic" are at odds here?
Is there any where to post/request an official clarification on this?
(the above linked thread is months old.)
You can start a new rules thread on the topic and ask people to click the "FAQ" link at the top of the post. Get enough clicks and the Paizo staff will look into it and decide if it needs clarification or not. (My guess, though, is that the Weapon Finesse precedent will make them consider it clear enough to not warrant its own FAQ/clarification.)
I really don't see how the Weapon Finesse discussion applies here. By extending one clarification to another rule, you are reaching.
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I really don't see how the Weapon Finesse discussion applies here. By extending one clarification to another rule, you are reaching.
I would often be inclined to agree, but in this case I think it's legit, and here's why:
SKR didn't just make a "flat" ruling (i.e., "this is how it is, because we say so"). He stated that Weapon Finesse working with maneuvers was the result of existing text; that is, the correct interpretation of the existing rule is that the DEX-for-STR substitution falls under the heading of the weapon-based adjustments mentioned in the rules.
It's not "apply weapon-based adjustments and also Finesse works too", it's "Finesse works because it's one of the weapon-based adjustments".
Because the reason was given, it doesn't seem like a stretch to apply it to a near-identical situation.
And if you think "applies DEX to attacks with a Finesse weapon" and "applies DEX to attacks with a ranged weapon" are not near-identical situations, well... I'm not sure I'd have an answer to that.
Though such language doesn't seem to have made it into the official FAQ, I'm inclined to agree.
It does make more sense.