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I see no reason why a copy of your character sheet should be available to others, even allies. After all, in real life you do run into people who clearly appear to be soldiers, cops, nurses, fire fighters, office workers, etc. However they don't walk around with copies of their resumes and diplomas hovering above their heads. They could be impostors!
I had a good deal of fun playing a disguise oriented rogue in neverwinter nights' online servers. I had an evil streak back then, and some of my favorite tricks involved pumping points into UMD to appear as a mage or spending feats on armor/weapon proficiencies. (I had a great deal of fun pretending to be a paladin). Typically, I'd murder those who fell for my disguises, pickpocket them or otherwise be a deceitful bastard.
This brings me back to Pathfinder Online. I think it would be wrong to force people to reveal their true "class identities". World of Warcraft does it, but I think this is going to be an altogether different game. In a sandbox, spies and assassins should be allowed to do their thing without basic game rules rendering their roles obsolete.
Especially if we're getting rid of the "trinity" classes approach, there shouldn't be such strong emphasis on needing to know the class of everyone with whom you're traveling.
Exactly! This is especially true with classes like the bard, ranger and rogue who's inherent plasticity make distinctions like healer, damage dealer and tank virtually obsolete.
Goblin Squad Member
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Considering "levels" etc... won't exist, and that it will be possible to take as many archtypes as you like, the only way I could see class being visible, would be if they gave you a full 100% detailed information on a characters trained skills etc... Which I also agree fully should not happen.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Three men walk into a bar...
one wearing full plate, sword and shield, second wearing chain shirt and a longbow, third wearing monk robes and a staff. What class are they?
(answer: who knows, maybe all clerics?)
Since most players will wear appropriate adventuring gear *at all times*, you will normally see what -role- they are built around, which is what counts for grouping. No need to hammer it in more than that.
If they happen to have a trick up their sleeve that you cannot tell from their appearance, so much the better.
However, a rogue putting on full plate to trick people into thinking him a paladin will have some hefty armor check penalties.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Considering "levels" etc... won't exist
What I read was not that levels won't exist, but that you will get them in a different way. I keep seeing that repeated here on the forums, and I don't think that's what the blog actually meant. I mean they even make pretty straightforward reference to "level 20" characters.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Considering "levels" etc... won't existWhat I read was not that levels won't exist, but that you will get them in a different way. I keep seeing that repeated here on the forums, and I don't think that's what the blog actually meant. I mean they even make pretty straightforward reference to "level 20" characters.
They refer to 20 milestones in each archtype but it sounds to me like there are major differences between gaining a level of an archtype instead of a level of a class.
instead of using experience points as a prerequisite for improving in a skill, improving skills are part of the prerequisite for gaining new abilities. Your character must earn all the things needed to qualify for a new "level," and then you're rewarded with a special bonus. If you want to be a better rogue, you do roguish things and train roguish skills, and at a certain point, you receive a special merit badge recognizing a development milestone, rewarding you with a benefit for your persistence. Like class levels in the tabletop game, there will be 20 of these rewards available for each class type, creating a way to simulate a 20-level progression within our unique system.
For starters I would say it it is safe to assume that HP etc... has to level outside of this archetype, as otherwise it is impossible to keep a 20/20 on the same playing field as a 20 (obviously doubling a characters hit dice, creates a huge power variance). I cannot say with any certainty of what these bonuses are, but I would assume that it is likely their version of class abilities.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Onishi so no HP progression? BaB progression? Feats? Bonus Feats? Spell progression? Skill progression? Ability score bonuses?
Are they stating the differences as you understand them, or are you reading between the lines? Perhaps it would be better to avoid assumptions?
I never said they wouldn't exist, Many things I find unlikely and I admit right now we have little information to make educated guesses about the game, but in practicality I still think the idea of class controlling everything as highly unlikely. We have had a direct developer anouncement that said "A character who is 20/20 is not going to be much more powerful than a single 20, only more versatile", To me the only way that is plausible is if many of the traits that give direct power, are not tied to archtype at all, but rather skills of their own.
HP can be it's own skill, it can be maxed separately from archtype, and therefore it can be maxed by your first 20, and not double after you complete your 2nd 20.
Feats + bonus feats + skills, all likely to be their own skills, some possibly treated as archtype skills, others treated as non-typed skills
Spell progression, that one I would say is safe to assume it will be the merit badges for the archtype.
Ability scores, I honestly have no clue on that one yet. Maybe it will be set at the begining and only effected by gear, and permit an occasional re-set of them through some means, I have no idea exactly.
For the most part my assumptions are based on what would create a practical game that actually accomplishes their goals. In general they are trying to create an open world, open PVP game, in which it is clear that people of varying levels will be mixed in. One of eve's greatest stregnths was the ability for a fresh out of pilot school character, to make an impact in a battle that is 80% characters that have been playing for 5+ years. IMO this is something that should absolutely be imitated by PFO, as much as I love the pathfinder P&P game, it's rules would make coming into the world 4 years into the games lifespan, miserable. Imagine attempting to be competing in a battle, when you and everyone else level 10 and under is instantly killed by a dictum.
The pathfinder ruleset is great, but it just plain falls appart when you actually are trying to write in level 1's, 5's 10's, and 20's fighting in the same battle, and since the developers have stated over and over that the main content is going to be the PVP, I hardly see any chance the game would have in surviving if it took 2.5 years (estimated time to reach 20), before you could actually sanely participate in the primary content of the game, and if HP and everything could continue to increase when you are working on your second 20... well 5 years into the games life, there would be absolutely 0 point in anyone else bothering to begin, it is too late to make an impact on anything.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Why argue about it:
Character Development in Pathfinder Online
Now that you've got the background you need, let's take a look at what we're currently planning for our game. Your Pathfinder Online character will be described by four primary types of information.
Attributes: These correspond to the classic six abilities of the tabletop game (although we may rename one or two just for the sake of clarity given the way they'll work in the online game). In Pathfinder Online, these attributes have two aspects: The first is that they determine how long it takes to train a skill that uses that attribute as a base. The higher the attribute score, the faster your character can train those kinds of skills. The second is that they determine how effective the character is at resisting certain types of effects. Instead of the tabletop game's three saving throws, in Pathfinder Online there's a resistance bonus or penalty associated with each of the six attributes.
Skills: As in EVE Online, your character can train in a wide variety of skills. However, unlike EVE, skills in Pathfinder Online have no direct effects. Each is simply a prerequisite for another area of character development. Skills qualify your character to access all sorts of things from the kind of equipment the character can use to the types of items that can be crafted to how the character can access special powers and magical spells... but simply training the skill does not award those benefits directly.
Merit Badges: Merit badges are a combination of measuring the progression of your character (as in first-person shooters like Battlefield 3) and recognizing the character has done something notable (like the achievements in World of Warcraft). Most merit badges require that you first finish training a specific skill or skills. Some also require that you do something in-game, such as harvest a certain amount of resources, or slay a certain number of monsters, or explore a portion of the map. When you have completed the requirements, the merit badge is awarded, and you will likely also get a new ability associated with that merit badge.
Abilities: Abilities represent the class features and feats from the tabletop game, as well as a wider variety of development opportunities to support the wide range of character types for the MMO. As a character gains abilities, that character will become more competent and capable. Abilities give characters more variety in the types of armor they can wear, weapons they can use, items they can make, mounts they can ride, and spells they can cast. They also link to things like being sneaky, healing, finding traps, detecting tracks, finding resources that can be harvested, and buying and selling items at the in-game markets.
Taken together, these four types of information describe your character's development. Add in the character's race, alignment, wealth, gear, and social connections, and you have a very complex matrix of potential character types.
Per the blog, Attributes, Skills, Badges and Abilities are the 4 things will define your character. I see nothing that mentions or requires levels. There is a big difference between assumption and deduction.
I also think it is probably safer to assume they will do as they say...than not.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So level 1's, 5's, 10's and 20's will be fighting in the same battles? That's the official plan? Are you sure.
Make all the educated guesses you want, but flat out telling someone there won't be levels. Period. That's not an educated guess, that's talking out your...
In PVE it's borderline and unknown, PVP it's obviously yes, it's open world, and short of being in a seperate parallel universe. Players of multiple levels have to share the same world, With conquest and kingdom ownership as a main part of the game, it is not talking out of one's rear to safely assume that one will be intended to be participating in the games primary hook within the first 6 months of starting. Considering they have directly stated there will not be arenas or any risk free or tiered combat areas, then assuming that the developers assume that a character should wait 2.5 years before participating in the main content, is either talking out of your... Assuming that your average player will stick through the filler content of a game for 2.5 years, or it is assuming that the developers are just plain moronic.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@KitNyx Look under the next heading.
creating a way to simulate a 20-level progression within our unique system
It's vague whether or not they'll actually be called character "levels", but they are clearly talking about a system that parallels it as best they can.
Heck, there's even another heading under that talking about "Reaching 20th Level"
They said they're taking a different approach to levels. You assumed. That's fine. Just keep clear in your mind the difference between making an assumption and having the facts.
I think if a player opts to display any information from his end, then it should be displayed by the system. Leave it up to players to decide what is shown to the world, be it their name, their titles if any, or their class. People should look at what they wear for clues. Yes, that makes PvP harder, but after all, PvP in most games has far more information available than it should and makes it relatively easy for people to decide who to fight. They always go for the easy kills for the most part, human nature usually settling to the lowest common denominator. If people are going to claim there will be less pvp due to the unknown, that is fine, because that is normally what keeps most people in check in the real world, not knowing what the other guy is capable of. Most pvp games I've played make it too easy for abject cowards to act braver then they really are because of the surplus of information available to them.
A lot of this should also be determined by class. What good is being a paladin if no one knows it? Or a cleric for that matter. How would people know to turn to you for help if you don't let people know you ARE someone that could help them? Certain classes should preclude the option of sneakiness.
This doesn't even take into account certain magical items that will attire a player in the garb of any class. In that case, anything could be displayed, but the item determines what that is.
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Goblin Squad Member
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At the bottom of the page you linked, the explain one of the reasons why for their approach: the difference between combat oriented characters, and crafting characters. In PnP, if you gain experience through non combat experiences and level up, you level up in combat centered ways. What they're talking about is giving us more options. But combat progression, call it levels, call it badges, call it whatever, is still progression. This assumption that beginners and veterans are going to be equals on the battlefield...that's not in the stuff you're quoting. It's a big, shaky assumption.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Re read my post. Read the part where I sayThese are online forums for a game that is barely in the whiteboard phase of development, still seeking investors, and still trying to figure out what it will be... If you don't want to debate speculation you may as well close the forums :-p
It may be YEARS before there are truly concrete things to discuss and debate.
You assumed. That's fine. Just keep clear in your mind the difference between making an assumption and having the facts.
Then get back to me. K? Thanks.
If we want to discuss assumptions, great. But let's talk about assumptions and not declare we have it all figured out. That's what I was talking about by "talking out your..."
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Goblin Squad Member
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@KitNyx Look under the next heading.
creating a way to simulate a 20-level progression within our unique systemIt's vague whether or not they'll actually be called character "levels", but they are clearly talking about a system that parallels it as best they can.
Heck, there's even another heading under that talking about "Reaching 20th Level"
They said they're taking a different approach to levels. You assumed. That's fine. Just keep clear in your mind the difference between making an assumption and having the facts.
Assumed? No more than you...and I see a big difference between writing so members of a group (in this case PF PnP players) can understand a topic (so you use their jargon) and what they have out right stated. If your character can be defined by those 4 things (I previously mentioned)...I don't see where there is wiggle room for you to assume there will be a 5th.
But, you are totally correct, I am making the assumption that what they said is what they will attempt to do. I am going to continue to do so, and I have no qualms with you believing as you wish. I do not see the harm in the difference.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This assumption that beginners and veterans are going to be equals on the battlefield...that's not in the stuff you're quoting. It's a big, shaky assumption.
Wow! You're totally misquoting him and making a big, shaky assumption of your own. No one ever said they'd be "equals". He said they'd be "fighting in the same battle".
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Goblin Squad Member
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At the bottom of the page you linked, the explain one of the reasons why for their approach: the difference between combat oriented characters, and crafting characters. In PnP, if you gain experience through non combat experiences and level up, you level up in combat centered ways. What they're talking about is giving us more options. But combat progression, call it levels, call it badges, call it whatever, is still progression. This assumption that beginners and veterans are going to be equals on the battlefield...that's not in the stuff you're quoting. It's a big, shaky assumption.
You also fail to see the difference between equals and in the same league.
No-one is saying that a capstoned character is expected to be on equal terms with a new player, just like in eve, a fresh pilot licensed character, is not on even terms with a 41m skill point character.
That however does not mean they aren't in the same league. In sports term, we are talking college basketball vs the NBA.
Where the P&P game and WoW and others, you are talking little league baseball team, vs Olympic Basketball team (at basketball of course).
In Eve and similar styles of games, you can be a valid contributer to a fight, without being the star. You aren't just a speedbump, your best hope isn't that maybe you will absorb one shot that would otherwise have gone to someone actually playing, you actually contribute to the fight, if your timing is right and you get in the right position, even a newbie CAN kill a much more powerful character.
Considering this is one of the biggest selling points of eve, and the developers have over and over again stated that Players being content for other Players IS the main focus of the game. It would absolutely be ridiculous to assume that they aren't going to attempt in some way to meet that goal.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@KitNyx My issue was never with your interpretation: it was with people stating it as a foregone conclusion. Someone who hasn't read the blog as thoroughly might stop and think such a poster actually know what they're talking about.
Ah sorry, then I 100% agree with you on the conclusion that they have not done anything yet (as far as coding goes) and even they have stated everything is subject to change...and therefore we can all conclude there are as of yet, no concretes as to what the game will be like.
Sorry for misunderstanding the debate.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@KitNyx
A lot of what I've been saying in this thread, and in some of the more recently quite active threads, has not entirely reflected my own opinions. I have a bit of a compulsive issue when I see what I believe is an assumption being made. I like to poke at assumptions and make people ask more questions. As I said, I'm a bit compulsive about it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@KitNyx
A lot of what I've been saying in this thread, and in some of the more recently quite active threads, has not entirely reflected my own opinions. I have a bit of a compulsive issue when I see what I believe is an assumption being made. I like to poke at assumptions and make people ask more questions. As I said, I'm a bit compulsive about it.
Good to know...I will remember that for future reference...However, at this point every discussion can be assumed to be based on assumptions and even guild announcements are based on the assumption that there will be a game at all. So, although I appreciate you keeping us honest, I am going to continue to take Goblinworks posts and blogs at face value, at least to the best of my ability to understand (which admittedly may not be as great as some).
Probitas, while you make some good points, in reality it probably needs to be an all or nothing thing to be truly effective.
If all Paladins can display, via game mechanics, that they are indeed Paladins and not lying about it, then every "Paladin" who refuses to display such information will be assumed to be lying, even if they are not.
In Eve people use the Limited API key to try and establish credentials, but since that game is SO grief-friendly it may not be a fair comparison.
Perhaps I wasn't clear enough.
Certain classes will not allow a player to opt out of showing class data at least. Paladins and Clerics are the two classes I know who should be into advertising. They are the champions of the faith, and what card carrying member of the faith would not display it out there for all to see, so the rabble know that the reason they are so great is because of their faith? That at least also allows for role play. No paladin (at least no good Paladin or Cleric either) would lie about it. It goes against their moral code, and Paladins and Clerics who do that get insta-punished by the gods, stripped of power and sent on quests to prove their true nature.
The rest is open to interpretation. If a thief wishes people to think he's a fighter, he has to look it. Same with a wizard. Otherwise, astute people will realize that the con is in play. However, that usually is only going to work a few times before it becomes fairly common knowledge. You can only do it so often before word goes out, unless you also don't have to have a name displayed. Then you can do it possibly forever. But it should be a player controlled option, subject to system controls as in the aforementioned class/alignment issues.
[I'm trying to keep in mind that the game isn't just an MMO, it's going to be an MMO-RPG]
For starters I would say it it is safe to assume that HP etc... has to level outside of this archetype, as otherwise it is impossible to keep a 20/20 on the same playing field as a 20 (obviously doubling a characters hit dice, creates a huge power variance). I cannot say with any certainty of what these bonuses are, but I would assume that it is likely their version of class abilities.
I'd say HP etc. will be their own set of skills to train entirely
Goblinworks Founder
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I like that air of mystery when meeting someone, when they hide their armor behind a cloak/robe. Which only a good skill check might give you some idea of what they are; or just by watching the spells/attacks they do.
This would go with thinking they're one thing but finding out they're another, specially when fighting against them and misjudging their next move.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Probitas, I generally agree with what you're saying here, but I'm concerned about trying to force certain behavior on Paladins. It is not true that a Paladin would never lie. For example, I would expect a good GM to punish a Paladin for telling the truth if he knowingly told a murderer where to find their innocent prey. Or, I can see a Paladin lying about being a Paladin if revealing it might cause harm to an innocent.
It's extremely easy for you and me to look at these situations and decide what we think is right, but it's impossible for a computer program to do that effectively. Seeing the kinds of things that Bioware thinks is Light Side in SWTOR makes me extremely wary of any automatically enforced alignment shifts. I'm ok with the stated alignment shift for "murdering" other players, but if they plan on trying to automate any other alignment-changing actions, I sure hope they give it a whole lot of thought.