I'm struggling with the math of monster advancement, I'm looking for some examples.
I'm coming from 4e. I was a player in 3.5 so this was never my area to worry about. I now DM in 4, and were moving to pathfinder.
So, as an example, we aren't making anything new, but I need an easy way to say my level 2 Orc is level 4, or my Goblins are level 8
Clearly the whole how to build an encounter is different than I am use to, so that's part of it I fear but still.
I see the chart Table: Monster Advancement, but I'm not sure how I read it.
Do I pick my current monster level on the chart orc (2) and then move up to my new level orc (4), or do I simply use it to determine how many levels I am moving up or down, so in my case I'd look at (2), and add those new values to my existing orc? Do I add the HP changes together?
Current orc hp 10, now 20 (5+5) or 15
Am I just that lost?
Well, Orcs and Goblins are actually rather simple in that they don't have racial hit dice (which is what the table is meant to show) -- they have Warrior levels. (1 each, actually).
So, to bring them forward, you just increase their level in Warrior -- which means each bump is +d10+1+con to hp (the extra +1 is favored class), +2 skill points, and +1 to BAB. Since it's an NPC class, their new CR will be (Level -2) [eg - Orc Warrior 3 = CR 1]
The value of their gear would increase with their level, meaning they can trade in their lesser armour and weapons for masterwork or magical ones.
[If you want them to have PC-class levels instead, you would apply the "Creature with PC Class Levels" template, which gives them +4 to 2 attributes, +2 to 2 attributes, and -2 to one of them -- which is effectively converting the default (pre-modified) stat array of 11,11,11,10,10,10 to the "heroic" array of 15,14,13,12,10,8]
Ultimately, all "normal" advancement happens in a similar way -- you would add levels of Fey or whatever -- but creatures without special abilities or racial hit die are the easiest.
Most of us GMs, however, don't do this by hand so much anymore and use either PCGen or HeroLab (the former has the benefit of being free, though as a Java thing, it can be sluggish at times)
I'm struggling with the math of monster advancement, I'm looking for some examples.
I'm coming from 4e. I was a player in 3.5 so this was never my area to worry about. I now DM in 4, and were moving to pathfinder.
So, as an example, we aren't making anything new, but I need an easy way to say my level 2 Orc is level 4, or my Goblins are level 8
Clearly the whole how to build an encounter is different than I am use to, so that's part of it I fear but still.
I see the chart Table: Monster Advancement, but I'm not sure how I read it.
Do I pick my current monster level on the chart orc (2) and then move up to my new level orc (4), or do I simply use it to determine how many levels I am moving up or down, so in my case I'd look at (2), and add those new values to my existing orc? Do I add the HP changes together?
Current orc hp 10, now 20 (5+5) or 15
Am I just that lost?
Well first off, Orcs are different from other monsters. If you look in the orc section, it say it doesn't have hitdice but works as if it were a playable race. It even has bonuses and such to represent that. So, you would build the orc like you would a human or an elf. Player monsters are easier to level than most monsters.
Well first off, Orcs are different from other monsters. If you look in the orc section, it say it doesn't have hitdice but works as if it were a playable race. It even has bonuses and such to represent that. So, you would build the orc like you would a human or an elf. Player monsters are easier to level than most monsters.
Ha, figures I pick a monster that doesn't even fit the table!
OK, that said, if I were using the chart, how is it read?
Also, I have the core HeroLab, no bestiary. If I add the bestiary, will I then be able to generally "level up" monsters using it, just like players and be able to use them in combat, or... does this not work for monster with hit dice?
Alright, let's say you were leveling up a monster with racial hitdiece. I'll go with the minotaur as an example. I want this minotaur to go from CR 4 to CR 6 because I really really want to eviscerate... I mean, challenge my players ;)
So first, look at the monster type. This is important to learn how the BAB, Hit Dice, and other stats change. You'll be using the 'Monster Creation' tables on page 293 (Bestiary 1) for help.
In this example, the minotaur is a Monstrous Humanoid. They have d10 Hit Die and a 'Fast BAB' (Base Attack Bonus = Hit Die). I found this by looking at Table 1-4 on page 293.
Next, I go to Table 2-1 'Monster Advancement'. I start at the base CR of the creature (under the Higher CR column), then go down until I get to the CR I want him to be. This will tell me the HP he should have and therefore how many hit dice I will add. For this, you will need to know what the average roll is on a hit die. Luckily, Table 1-5 on page 293 has a list of the average die result for each die. Remember to take into account your beast's Constitution modifier. That adds to your HP.
In this example, my minotaur is going from CR 4 to CR 6. So, starting from CR 4 and going to CR 6, I look at the HP change to be 30 HP (15 from CR 5 plus 15 from CR 6). A minotaur's hit dice is a d10 so the average from that is 5.5. In addition, the minotaur has a Con modifier of +2. So, each time I add a hit dice, it is equal to 5.5+2, or 7.5. So, I decide to go (30HP/7.5HP per Hit Die) to see how many hit die I would have to add to equal 30. Luckily for me, this equals a whole number of 4 Hit Die. So my minotaur goes from 6d10 to 10d10 when making him a CR 6.
Now after you've done that, it's time to treat him like a player character. Just like PCs, monsters get a feat every odd Hit Dice (1,3,5,7,etc) and an ability score increase every four Hit Dice (4,8,12, etc.). Make sure to reflect that. Also, you usually want to increase the damage output of the advanced creature so that it meshes with one of it's CR. For monsters that can use weapons, it is as easy as giving him a better weapon or more feats. For an animal, you can use some of the monster feats in the bestiary or pump strength when you get your ability score bonus.
Let me first of all start off by praising Odraude's excellent description of the process and add one thing about monster feats: Improved Natural Attack is your friend if you've got the BAB for it. :)
Let me then follow up by saying: stacking a template or two is sometimes easier than a rebuild (eg - you have "Advanced" Orcs, or Advanced Giant Orcs, etc.)
And, finally, yes -- I believe that if you have the bestiary add on for Herolab, you'll be able to have *it* do much of what you're trying to do -- personally, I use PCGen because I know how to edit the files easily for custom things, and I know it'll do it