The way they have the Blood of Dragons class feature worded seems a bit confusing, and I'm trying to figure out how it should be applied.
A dragon disciple adds his level to his sorcerer levels when determining the powers gained from his bloodline. If the dragon disciple does not have levels of sorcerer, he instead gains bloodline powers of the draconic bloodline, using his dragon disciple level as his sorcerer level to determine the bonuses gained. He must choose a dragon type upon gaining his first level in this class and that type must be the same as his sorcerer type. This ability does not grant bonus spells to a sorcerer unless he possesses spell slots of an appropriate level. Such bonus spells are automatically granted if the sorcerer gains spell slots of the spell's level.
Its the emboldened portion that confuses me, specifically with regards to bloodline feats, bloodline spells and the advancement of bloodline powers.
For instance, lets say I'm building a Paladin 4/Sorcerer 1/Dragon Diciple 8 (levels taken in that order, with the remaining levels to be taken in Sorcerer). A sorcerer is slated to get his first bloodline feat at 7th level. A Dragon Disciple gets one at 2nd, 5th and 8th. Does Blood of Dragons RAW mean that his Dragon Disciple levels add to his Sorcerer levels enabling him to get that 7th level Bloodline feat at Dragon Diciple level 6 (S1 + DD6 = S7) or does the Sorcerer have to wait until the actual 7th level of Sorcerer taken, which be at character level 19?
What about the levels at which the Bloodline spells are acquired, since Dragon Disciple doesn't advance the spellcaster side of things every level? For that matter, is the character's caster level (for the effects of spells, not the acquisition of them) equal to the Sorcerer level + Dragon Disciple level or equal to the Sorcerer + the number of levels of Dragon Disciple that actually advance the caster's spells?
In a similar vein, are the Bloodline powers taken and advanced as if the two class levels stacked - i.e. Does the Sorcerer get claws treated as Magic at Disciple level 2 (S1 + DD2 = S3) or does that happen much, much later when he finally gets that true 3rd level of Sorcerer?
I hope my questions weren't too confusing because they seemed difficult to articulate properly. Its probably not as tricky an issue as I'm making it out to be, but I'm trying to understand how to properly integrate the prestige class.
Thanks in advance.
A dragon disciple adds his level to his sorcerer levels when determining the powers gained from his bloodline.
A sorcerer is slated to get his first bloodline feat at 7th level.
A feat is not a power.
What about the levels at which the Bloodline spells are acquired
Spells are not powers.
In a similar vein, are the Bloodline powers taken and advanced as if the two class levels stacked - i.e. Does the Sorcerer get claws treated as Magic at Disciple level 2 (S1 + DD2 = S3) or does that happen much, much later when he finally gets that true 3rd level of Sorcerer?
Claws: "At 5th level, these claws are considered magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming DR."
At character level 9 you will have PAL4, SOR1, DD4. Since DD counts as SOR for purposes of bloodline powers, the bloodline power thinks you are SOR5, which means your claws overcome DR/magic.
At character level 7 you will have PAL4, SOR1, DD2. Since DD counts as SOR for purposes of bloodline powers, the bloodline power thinks you are SOR3, which means you gain Dragon Resistances (5/+1AC)
If I am PAL4,SOR1,DD2, do I gain spells as a 1st, 2nd or 3rd level Sorcerer? I think 2nd because the first level of DD doesn't advance spell progression, but then what level do I cast those spells at for purposes of range, damage, DC checks, ect.? 1st, 2nd, 3rd?
If I am PAL4,SOR1,DD2, do I gain spells as a 1st, 2nd or 3rd level Sorcerer?
2nd.
You have 1 level from SOR1, and you gain one more (for purposes of SPD, Known, and CL) from DD2.
what level do I cast those spells at for purposes of range, damage, DC checks, ect.? 1st, 2nd, 3rd?
2nd.
If you're SOR1 and take a level of fighter, you are character level 2, but your caster level is still 1. So all spells would be cast at CL 1.
If you are PAL4/SOR1/DD2 your (sorcerer) caster level is 2, so all (sorcerer) spells would be cast at CL 2. (Your Paladin spells are still cast at CL1)
What about the levels at which the Bloodline spells are acquiredSpells are not powers.
That's true, and yet it specifically does affect when you get your bloodline bonus spells:
"This ability does not grant bonus spells to a sorcerer unless he possesses spell slots of an appropriate level."
(Emphasis mine.)
What about the levels at which the Bloodline spells are acquiredSpells are not powers.That's true, and yet it specifically does affect when you get your bloodline bonus spells:
"This ability does not grant bonus spells to a sorcerer unless he possesses spell slots of an appropriate level."
(Emphasis mine.)
Here's the entire quote:
This ability does not grant bonus spells to a sorcerer unless he possesses spell slots of an appropriate level. Such bonus spells are automatically granted if the sorcerer gains spell slots of the spell's level.
And therein lies my confusion - it seems to explicitly infer that you ARE getting your bloodline spells as you progress through Dragon Disciple levels (assuming you can cast the appropriate level of spell), and if so, then it stands to reason that you are gaining your Bloodline Feats as well.
That's true, and yet it specifically does affect when you get your bloodline bonus spells
Nice catch.
So that would put the progression as such:
(Character Build) = (Bloodline Power Level), (Caster Level)
PAL4/SOR1/DD1 = BL2, CL1
PAL4/SOR1/DD2 = BL3, CL2 get Mage Armor, OK
PAL4/SOR1/DD3 = BL4, CL3
PAL4/SOR1/DD4 = BL5, CL4 get Resist Energy, OK
PAL4/SOR1/DD5 = BL6, CL4
PAL4/SOR1/DD6 = BL7, CL5 would get Fly, but can't cast it
PAL4/SOR1/DD7 = BL8, CL6 can cast Fly now
PAL4/SOR1/DD8 = BL9, CL7 would get Fear, but can't cast it
PAL4/SOR2/DD8 = BL10, CL8 can cast Fear now
and so on as the rest of the levels are sorcerer.
And therein lies my confusion - it seems to explicitly infer that you ARE getting your bloodline spells as you progress through Dragon Disciple levels (assuming you can cast the appropriate level of spell), and if so, then it stands to reason that you are gaining your Bloodline Feats as well.
I agree that it's confusing. Here's a thread I posted a couple of years ago on the subject:
http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz1heo?Dragon-Disciple-and-bloodline-powers#0
In that thread, it says:
Q: What does this the powers gained from his bloodline and bloodline powers refer to? Only Bloodline Powers from the draconic bloodline sorcerer, or Bonus Spells in addition to the Bloodline Powers, or Bonus Feats and Bonus Spells in addition to the Bloodline Powers.
A:(Jason Bulmahn 8/26/2009) Just the abilities listed under Bloodline Powers in each Bloodlines description. In addition, you gain the bloodline spells if you have levels of sorcerer and the appropriate slots available to you. You gain the feats at the rate indicated by the pclass.Jason said this in the List of Errata in Pathfinder Core Rulebook thread. Hopefully this helps give a bit of an official answer. =)
And therein lies my confusion - it seems to explicitly infer that you ARE getting your bloodline spells as you progress through Dragon Disciple levels (assuming you can cast the appropriate level of spell), and if so, then it stands to reason that you are gaining your Bloodline Feats as well.I agree that it's confusing. Here's a thread I posted a couple of years ago on the subject:
http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz1heo?Dragon-Disciple-and-bloodline-powers#0
In that thread, it says:
Q: What does this the powers gained from his bloodline and bloodline powers refer to? Only Bloodline Powers from the draconic bloodline sorcerer, or Bonus Spells in addition to the Bloodline Powers, or Bonus Feats and Bonus Spells in addition to the Bloodline Powers.
A:(Jason Bulmahn 8/26/2009) Just the abilities listed under Bloodline Powers in each Bloodlines description. In addition, you gain the bloodline spells if you have levels of sorcerer and the appropriate slots available to you. You gain the feats at the rate indicated by the pclass.Jason said this in the List of Errata in Pathfinder Core Rulebook thread. Hopefully this helps give a bit of an official answer. =)
Yes, it is very confusing and I get the sense that it didn't need to be so.
Yes, that is exactly the definitive answer I was looking for - thank you both for your responses.
And therein lies my confusion - it seems to explicitly infer that you ARE getting your bloodline spells as you progress through Dragon Disciple levels (assuming you can cast the appropriate level of spell), and if so, then it stands to reason that you are gaining your Bloodline Feats as well.I agree that it's confusing. Here's a thread I posted a couple of years ago on the subject:
http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz1heo?Dragon-Disciple-and-bloodline-powers#0
In that thread, it says:
Q: What does this the powers gained from his bloodline and bloodline powers refer to? Only Bloodline Powers from the draconic bloodline sorcerer, or Bonus Spells in addition to the Bloodline Powers, or Bonus Feats and Bonus Spells in addition to the Bloodline Powers.
A:(Jason Bulmahn 8/26/2009) Just the abilities listed under Bloodline Powers in each Bloodlines description. In addition, you gain the bloodline spells if you have levels of sorcerer and the appropriate slots available to you. You gain the feats at the rate indicated by the pclass.Jason said this in the List of Errata in Pathfinder Core Rulebook thread. Hopefully this helps give a bit of an official answer. =)
Thank you, Hogarth. I was wondering about this myself.