| 3 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
I know this question has been asked many times before, but I thought I'd put it in a thread by itself, suitable for hitting the FAQ button. :-)
Character A is grappling character B and successfully pins him. How long does the pin last?
a) One round -- when A maintains the grapple next round, he has to choose the "pin" option or the pin stops.
b) As long as the grapple lasts -- when A maintains the grapple next round, he can choose any valid option (move, damage, tie up, etc.) and B will still be pinned.
c) Other.
I always assumed it was (a), but it's certainly not as clear as it was in 3.5.
Well, I figure it's either (a) or (b); a good case could be made for either, IMO. I just added (c) to cover my back. :-)
You maintain the pin the same way you maintain a grapple so as long as the grappler/pinner can keep making the grapple check to hold the pin the opponent is pinned. In essence being pinned is a more severe form of being grappled.
You're pinned until you either break free or are released by the grappler.
Does the same apply for moving a grapple (e.g. you keep moving until you either break free or are released)? If not, why not?
Quoting a specific line of the rules would help clear things up.
When A grapples B, both gain the Grappled state. The grappler may do many things on his turn, including damaging, moving, and pinning. A pin requires a standard action and if successful applies the Pinned condition to the target. The attacker continues to only have the Grappled condition but additionally loses Dex bonus to AC.
The fact that B is just grappled or fully pinned does not reduce the set of actions A can take. A is still grappling B and so can do things a grappler can do to the target. Now if B has the 'pinnned', 'unconscious' status, or is otherwise restrained, A can perform an additional action called Tie Up, which applies the Pinned condition with a special CMD escape value.
Pinned is described as a more severe version of Grapple that does not stack with Grapple, with all the same restrictions plus some extra. The pinned person may still attempt to escape.
The only way out of the Pinned condition is to escape (since pinned and grappled don't stack, breaking from the pin ends the grapple) or for the grappler to end the grapple.
I think the problem is that you assume being pinned is something different than being grappled. That A, once he has pinned B, is no longer grappling B. A is still grappling, he has simply replaced B's "grappled" status with that of "pinned" for so long as the grapple remains.
To me, the odd thing is that once I have you pinned I can no longer move you.
(If I try, you escape the pin and are merely grappled.)
Seems to me it should be easier to shove around someone whose arm you have twisted behind their back (pinned) than someone whose wrist you have grabbed (grappled). But by RAW it's the other way around.
I did not see that in the glossary. It says the pinned creature can not move. It does not say the pinner can not move them.
The Grappled status also says you cannot move. However, the Grapple combat maneuver overrides this in the specific case in which the grappler chooses to take an action to move the grappled/pinned person. This is not a move action.
I did not see that in the glossary. It says the pinned creature can not move. It does not say the pinner can not move them.
Ah, I wrote sloppily.
I'm assuming you, the grappler, have only one grapple check per turn. Of course, there are feats and abilities to change that.
But in early levels while that is still the case, if I spend that grapple check to "move" who I am grappling then I am not spending that action to "pin". Thus I do not keep applying the pin and they slip back to "grappled" instead of "pinned".
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
if I spend that grapple check to "move" who I am grappling then I am not spending that action to "pin". Thus I do not keep applying the pin and they slip back to "grappled" instead of "pinned".
You sure about that? There's no other precedent in the rules (that I'm aware of) for a creature ever reverting from "pinned" back to "grappled'. For instance, if a pinned creature succeeds on a grapple/Escape Artist check to escape, they fully escape - they do not revert to "grappled".
Given that that's the case and is the only precedent we have, I find it hard to believe that there is a situation in which the condition reverts back like that, unless the rules text specifically says so.
During the grapple you may take an action to apply the Pinned condition to the opponent. They remain pinned until escape (as defined in the Pinned status description) or release (as defined in the Grapple action). The act of pinning your victim is a standard action, and as such you cannot take any other grapple actions such as damage or movement (until you get the faster grapple feats).
I did not see that in the glossary. It says the pinned creature can not move. It does not say the pinner can not move them.Ah, I wrote sloppily.
I'm assuming you, the grappler, have only one grapple check per turn. Of course, there are feats and abilities to change that.
But in early levels while that is still the case, if I spend that grapple check to "move" who I am grappling then I am not spending that action to "pin". Thus I do not keep applying the pin and they slip back to "grappled" instead of "pinned".
That is not in the rules.
Consider tying up. It's a grapple option that requires the person you're grappling to be pinned. You make a grapple check (as a standard action) to tie up the pinned character.
How would this make sense if you had to keep making checks to keep them pinned - since that would take your standard action each round and you'd never get a chance to take the standard action to tie them up?
|
While we're on the subject of grappling, I'm just checking the grappling rules. It says that once you have a subject grappled, you make a check to maintain the grapple and do something else to them on subsequent rounds. And one of those other things you can do to them is damage them. If you choose to damage someone you're grappling, does that mean that if your grapple check in the 2nd round is successful, the damage is automatic, or do you still need to roll an attack roll to hit them?
The damage is automatic.
|
|
Consider tying up. It's a grapple option that requires the person you're grappling to be pinned. You make a grapple check (as a standard action) to tie up the pinned character.
How would this make sense if you had to keep making checks to keep them pinned - since that would take your standard action each round and you'd never get a chance to take the standard action to tie them up?
From the prd:
If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold. If your target does not break the grapple, you get a +5 circumstance bonus on grapple checks made against the same target in subsequent rounds. Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple).
The "following actions" are then listed as move, damage, pin, or tie up. As stated in my last post, I'm wondering if that damage is automatic with the successful check to maintain the grapple, or if you have to make an attack roll on top of the grapple roll.
Edit: Ninja'd. Thanks, wraithstrike. Next question is how much damage I'd be able to do that way. I've got a barbarian with Lesser Beast Totem and Power Attack. Would he get just one claw attack from the totem, or both of his claws? And would he be able to add the Power Attack bonus to the damage?
Consider tying up. It's a grapple option that requires the person you're grappling to be pinned. You make a grapple check (as a standard action) to tie up the pinned character.
How would this make sense if you had to keep making checks to keep them pinned - since that would take your standard action each round and you'd never get a chance to take the standard action to tie them up?
I'd assume that the rules meant the target had to be pinned until the action used for the tying up.