Ok i just got a chance to look through my buddies Bestiary 3 and Im kinda disappointed in all the various monsters that could have been used to make new Alternate PC races.
I.E. the Adlet & Tanuki would have made wonderful PC races. Even if they only had one or two differences from another race it would be wonderful RP fuel. And maybe do like the kobolds & i believe it is the Drow Noble and make it to where the CR adjustment is altered.
How do you guys feel about this kind of stuff?
Edit: Also forgot to mention the fact that the Demilich and a few others now seem to have instant death effects.
The Advanced Races Guide/Ultimate Races will only include the races from already existing books and a race builder from what I have seen.
Also I hate humans for more than good low level opponents.
And I am a GM... I just know me and my players love none standard races.
I don't think any Paizo Bestiary has "X as Characters" rules for any creature with racial Hit Dice. The Adlet has 15 Hit Dice, the tanuki has 5 Hit Dice.
Creative Director
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I do understand that some folks want more races, and that's a BIG part of why we're releasing a race-building system with the upcoming Advanced Race Guide.
But like it or not, one of the core philosophies we have about Golarion, and thus about the Pathfinder rules in general, is that humans are the core race. That means we aren't all that eager to make too many additional similar races.
And furthermore, a Bestiary isn't the best place to do new player race options anyway; in fact, its a pretty wretched place to do it since the whole point of a Bestiary is to provide new monsters for the GM to use in the game, and having players reading through monsters is something that a lot of GMs don't want.
So, when Advanced Race Guide comes out, folks can (and WILL) make zero HD versions of things like tanukis and adlets. That's fine; that's why we put that system in the book in the first place. But we don't want all those races to DEFAULT to being zero HD races—not our philosophy or desire for the baseline game.
As for death effects... yes, there are a few. As we get further from the core rules and the core assumptions, you can expect us to get more experimental with a LOT of things. And that includes monsters like the demilich that are built Extra Deadly or that have things like instant death effects. The game is about options, after all... that's why we offer so many base classes, spells, archetypes, feats, and the like. And it's why we offer so many monsters so that the GM can pick and choose, and can avoid the ones he doesn't like without creating for himself a monster shortage.
I agree with the philosophy of leaving the "X as characters" out of the bestiaries to the greatest extent possible. In an ideal world, character options should be limited to as few books as possible, if for logistical reasons as much as anything else. Besides the "I'd rather players not be paging around in the bestiary too much", it just makes good sense for race options to not be scattered around too many different books.
Bestiary 3 is the best bestiary yet, I think, although that's kind of faint praise because monster design was never 3.5's strong point; while PF (primarily because it's descended from 3.5, which was horrible about this) still has way too many monsters that are just way too mechanically similar (It's another humanoid-ish thing with no meaningful special qualities! It's another quadruped with no meaningful special qualities! It's another AQUATIC humanoid-ish thing with no meaningful special qualities! Hooray!), B3 is a step in the right direction in terms of getting creative with building things into creatures that make them something besides a lump with a move speed, a high fort save, and an attack routine. (It also still does the infuriating thing where it doesn't consider how monsters would actually be used in a campaign, and makes monsters that should all be working together spread across 15 CR, so if you want to have the bug person workers in the same adventure as the bug person queen and you want things to be all approximately challenging to the group, you have to advance and/or regress them a whole bunch to get CRs in the right time zone.)
That came out a lot more negative than I thought; I do like B3 a lot, I just wish that it took some usability lessons from 4e.
I guess it just feels a bit off compared to the rest of pathfinders stuff.
Reading the Adlet entry the background and everything makes it feel more like a PC race that was changed at the last moment to be a monster.
Edit: If you need an example of why it feels this way i have one.
I agree about leaving X as characters as much as possible but maybe add them as web enhancements or something. such as have a PDF that includes age categories for the races and the race info like the Core Rulebook that is either free or at most 5 USD. and make it to where you can download the updates for free even if it has an initial cost of 5 USD.
And yes the CRs are a little off or don't make sense. I.E. the Demilich being CR 14 and having a power that can kill a level 20 Fighter. If it just caused the body to constantly lose HP then it would be better but instantly turning to dust? and 300 foot range wow.
OK let me just say that I'm sorry that my posts sound hostile. I'm not meaning to be.
Let me see if I can clarify what I mean.
The demilich:
Sounds like a stage in the evolution of a lich. Fluff wise it sounds more like a template to add to a lich. It's death effect seems a bit OP'd for it's CR.
Adlet:
The entry states that many become oracles or druids. That makes it seem like a race that was changed to a monster. And all signs point to paizo drawing from mythologies and literature so why does the Adlet breakaway from the Adlet legends so much?
Tanuki:
I know a lot of players who want races like the tanuki & kitsune. Some of which have even talked or asked about/for it in many of forums I even think on this very forum.
Thriae:
This one could have been a single monster entry with varients listed as like the bandersnatch.
Races in Bestiaries:
This one honestly doesn't bother me other than the fact that it doesn't include enough information to play the race completely in most campaigns I have ran/played/know of.
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I agree about leaving X as characters as much as possible but maybe add them as web enhancements or something. such as have a PDF that includes age categories for the races and the race info like the Core Rulebook that is either free or at most 5 USD. and make it to where you can download the updates for free even if it has an initial cost of 5 USD.
Are you even aware that the "X as character" rules ar NOT there for making PCs? These rules are NECESSARY for GMs to be able to use these races as opponents AT ALL. You cannot have kobolds or goblins or drow opponents, for example, without these rules. These creatures need class levels to exist because they have no racial hit dice. Mechanically they work like PC races, but that does not mean they are designed to be PC races. After all they are in the Bestiaries for a reason.
*sigh*
The demilich:
Sounds like a stage in the evolution of a lich. Fluff wise it sounds more like a template to add to a lich. It's death effect seems a bit OP'd for it's CR.
The demilich is quite powerful and an evolution of a Lich. They have been in D&D as long as most of the game (Tomb of Horrors anyone?) and were some of the meanest possible opponents. The fact that they have a few kill effects is nothing compared to their forebearer builds. In OD&D they could basically obliterate a party of anylevel, no saves... They've always been nasty and this demilich is even less nasty overall than the 3.5 one (roughly the same CR). They are not oppenents for the weak of heart :)
*Edit* If this sounded like an attack, I apologize as it is not meant that way. I was more meaning it to inform you that the creature isn't new but a VERY old and well known one, and the lethality is well known as well.
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Chief Technical Officer
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OK let me just say that I'm sorry that my posts sound hostile. I'm not meaning to be.
Perhaps if your thread title had suggested something more like "I don't understand some of the choices you made" or "I wish Bestiary 3 had PC races" instead of the *incredibly unfair* current attitude of "you didn't really think through your product" or "your product was ripped out of development too early," perhaps people would look into your comments with a very different light.
As for death effects... yes, there are a few. As we get further from the core rules and the core assumptions, you can expect us to get more experimental with a LOT of things. And that includes monsters like the demilich that are built Extra Deadly or that have things like instant death effects. The game is about options, after all... that's why we offer so many base classes, spells, archetypes, feats, and the like. And it's why we offer so many monsters so that the GM can pick and choose, and can avoid the ones he doesn't like without creating for himself a monster shortage.
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.Maybe some of them should come with the label "For mature DM/GM only".
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I just want to point it out explicitly, because it didn't quite come through on the above staff posts: the "...as Characters" blocks in Bestiaries are for NPCs only. It's a common mistake to interpret them as "Player" races; they are not. Those blocks are for GMs to make NPCs that advance with class levels, and most of those races are wildly inappropriate for player use.
I love the Bestiary 3, has most of the monsters in it I consider my favourites. Have got a huge amount of use out of it so far. It is a fact the bestiaries are intended for DMs, not as fodder for player races. Look to the primers and Advanced Race Guide when it comes out for that sort of stuff.
I also think the title isn't very fair and probably could have 'needed thinking' itself.
I love a lot of the monsters in it.
On the whole "X as Characters" thing I have learned limiting playable races can lead quickly to boring campaigns.
On the "Attitude" of my posts. I am simply stating it doesn't follow the trend set by the rest of the content. I mean a Devourer, something meant to devour souls for sustenance, requires it to first kill the Character while a Demilich is capable of killing a character not just taking their soul and weakening but killing a character so easily.
The title is just that a title. It's just like being called a project head or a developer in the end it is a pointless formality.
and I'm sorry that I am not a "Raving Paizo Fanboy" and won't just say "hey thanks for the new book" and go on. I am pointing out that the demilich's power is contradictory to what was originally said to be a main focus of pathfinder. and that they also seem to love drawing from mythologies and then they turn around and butcher what is one of the most unique myths in the world with their version of the adlet.
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I love a lot of the monsters in it.
On the whole "X as Characters" thing I have learned limiting playable races can lead quickly to boring campaigns.
On the "Attitude" of my posts. I am simply stating it doesn't follow the trend set by the rest of the content. I mean a Devourer, something meant to devour souls for sustenance, requires it to first kill the Character while a Demilich is capable of killing a character not just taking their soul and weakening but killing a character so easily.
The title is just that a title. It's just like being called a project head or a developer in the end it is a pointless formality.
and I'm sorry that I am not a "Raving Paizo Fanboy" and won't just say "hey thanks for the new book" and go on. I am pointing out that the demilich's power is contradictory to what was originally said to be a main focus of pathfinder. and that they also seem to love drawing from mythologies and then they turn around and butcher what is one of the most unique myths in the world with their version of the adlet.
That's because Devourers are funky weirdo undead from Planescape with not much of a legend behind them, while Demiliches are legendary foes that deserve to be dreaded across all editions of the game. That's for upholding the legends for you.
your looking within the rules though. in the myths they are based on a demi-lich is the phase when a liches body starts to decay and he gains the powers of the undead. the adlets were the children/chosen followers of the wolven gods and were the greatest hunters.
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your looking within the rules though. in the myths they are based on a demi-lich is the phase when a liches body starts to decay and he gains the powers of the undead. the adlets were the children/chosen followers of the wolven gods and were the greatest hunters.
If I want a "true to myths above everything else" RPG, I play Ars Magica.
If I want a fun game that borrows from a lot of sources without being shackled to any of them, I play D&D. Drow aren't a 100% accurate representation of the myth, but screw that because they're cool as Gary re-imagined them. Well, until Drizzt came along that is.
im just saying this book seems to contradict what they set up and have said they had stated was what would drive pathfinder forwards.
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im just saying this book seems to contradict what they set up and have said they had stated was what would drive pathfinder forwards.
And that is? If you mean "no instant death effects", that never was meant to be absolute (hello, Power Word Kill). And if there is any monster in the game that deserves to have such an attack based on 30 years of it's reputation, it's the Demilich.
Frankly, I'd call out the designers loudly if the Demilich didn't have one such attack.
Yes, I am a raving unapologetic fanboy, in before you make such an observation.
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Creative Director
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Sorry some of the decisions didn't work for you, Azaelas... but the fact is that the more books we publish, the more we'll experiment and test boundaries, and frankly, the bigger the chances that we'll end up publishing something that someone might not like.
There's a big difference between a core game element and an expansion element, in other words.
We deliberately made the demilich really tough, because of that monster's over 30 year history and tradition.
And we deliberately chose NOT to make adlets and tanukis zero HD races because we've got plenty already. What we DON'T have plenty of, though, are High CR humanoid type creatures who aren't giants. Hence, the adlet and the tanuki being more intended to play the roles of monsters than PC options.
If you really want to play an adlet or tanuki or ANY race, the Advanced Race Guide's race construction rules will be what you want... not a Bestiary.
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Speaking of the adlet, how long does the staggered condition from its breath last, anyway? Or is there a standard rule for that sort of thing and I'm missing it?
Thanks!