Is it correct to say that a character with an 18 Str, 18 Dex, Quarterstaff, and Two-Weapon fighting would attack as follows:
Primary hand: +2 to hit, +6 damage
Off hand: +2 to hit, +2 damage
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Here is my scenario and reasoning. A character has an 18 Strength and an 18 Dexterity. He has a Quarterstaff and the Two Weapon Fighting feat.
Quarterstaff is a Two-Handed Melee double weapon. Regarding 'double' weapons, page 141 states, "A character can fight with both ends of a double weapon as if fighting with two weapons, but he incurs all the normal attack penalties associated with two-weapon combat, just as though the character were wielding a one-handed weapon and a light weapon (see page 202)."
The 2-Weapon fighting chart on page 202 shows -2 primary-hand and -2 off-hand penalties when the off-hand weapon is light and the character has Two Weapon Fighting. Essentially the Quarterstaff gets treated as a light weapon on this chart since it's a double weapon on page 142.
At this point, my understanding is that this character would be able to attack with the Quarterstaff with attack penalties of -2 for each attack. The strength of 18, granting +4 to hit, would offset that penalty, leaving a net bonus of +2 to each attack.
Now we get to damage. Page 16 states, "Off-hand attacks receive only half the characters's Strength bonus, while two-handed attacks receive 1-1/2 times the Strength bonus."
Given this scenario with the Quarterstaff, I take that to mean the character would get +6 damage (1.5 times) on the primary hand attack, and +2 damage (half) on the off-hand attack.
Is this correct? If not, please let me know where that analysis is off base. Thanks for your help.
This has come up before, and the wording it just bad. When two-weapon fighting the off-hand always get half of the strength bonus unless you have the double slice feat.
When you are TWF'ing the weapon is not treating as a two-handed weapon, but as two different weapons so one end is gets only 1/2 damage.
A two-handed weapon only gets 1.5 times the strength bonus when it used in that manner, and not as two separate weapons(TWF).
A character can fight with both ends of a double weapon as if fighting with two weapons, but he incurs all the normal attack penalties associated with two-weapon combat, just as though the character were wielding a one-handed weapon and a light weapon
This bolded area is meant to signify that. 3.5 which is where most of Pathfinder is copied and pasted from has a web article explaining it.
I know PF is not 3.5, but the wording is the same in this case, and so are the devs.
Thanks for the replies. That Double Slice feat is cool. Let's break this down a different way because this is still unclear to me.
Here are 3 scenarios. In all of these use a character with an 18 Strength and a 15 Dexterity. And this character wields a Quarterstaff. Strength of course grants +4 to hit and +4 damage. Dexterity is present to meet the feat requirements, but doesn't impact the math.
Quarterstaff is a two-handed weapon. So for Strength damage purposes (page 16) it does 1-1/2 times damage in the primary hand (+6), and half damage in the off-hand (+2). Quarterstaff is also 'double' weapon. Consequently, it gets treated as "Off-handed weapon is light" (page 141) on the Two-Weapon Fighting Penalties table.
Here are the 'to hit' penalties for primary and off hands from the Two-Weapon Fighting table (page 202):
1. Primary -6, Off -10 <== Normal penalties.
2. Primary -4, Off -8 <== Off-hand weapon is light.
3. Primary -4, Off -4 <== Two weapon fighting feat.
4. Primary -2, Off -2 <== Off hand weapon is light and Two-Weapon fighting feat.
Scenario 1: The character has no feats that assist with two weapon fighting. Attack penalties would be treated on row 2 of the Two-Weapon Fighting Penalties table, since the Quarterstaff is a 'double' weapon.
Attack bonuses would be:
* Primary: +0 to hit, +6 damage
* Off Hand: -4 to hit, +2 damage
Scenario 2: The character has Two-Weapon Fighting feat. Attack penalties would be treated on row 4 of the Two-Weapon Fighting Penalties.
Attack bonuses would be:
* Primary: +2 to hit, +6 damage
* Off Hand: +2 to hit, +2 damage
Scenario 3: The character has Two-Weapon Fighting and Double Slice feats. Attack penalties would be treated on row 4 Two-Weapon Fighting Penalties.
Attack bonuses would be:
* Primary: +2 to hit, +6 damage
* Off Hand: +2 to hit, +6 damage
Is the above analysis correct? Thanks.
What page is that on? Thanks.
The information myself and the other post quoted above. It just does not use the word damage.
Here it is again:
Double: You can use a double weapon to fight as if fighting with two weapons, but if you do, you incur all the normal attack penalties associated with fighting with two weapons, just as if you were using a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. You can choose to wield one end of a double weapon two-handed, but it cannot be used as a double weapon when wielded in this way—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round.
In short the double weapon is treated as a one-handed weapon, and a light weapon for all purposed.
Page 141 of the 4th printing of the Core Rulebook, under double weapons.
The specific, important bit is "The character can also choose to use a double weapon two-handed, attacking with only one end of it." That is to say, if you want the 1-1/2 times Strength bonus you get from wielding a weapon two handed, you can only attack with one end. If you want to use both, it is treated in all ways as a one-handed weapon and a light weapon (as explained in the previous sentence, and posts).
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Mort is correct.
Here's another question. Being that a quarterstaff is both a two-handed weapon and a double weapon would a character be able to gain the 3:1 return on Power Attack with a quarterstaff when using it as a double weapon?
The language in power attack doesn't really address double weapons;
This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls.
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Power attack in this case works the same as the strength bonus, you get the bonus on a 1 handed weapon for the primary end of the weapon (2:1 return) and the bonus of a light weapon for the off handed end (1:1) return.
Basically you can use a double weapon as a 2 handed weapon with 1 end, or as a one handed and a light weapon for two weapon fighting and you get all the bonuses or penalties of the one way you are fighting.
Your reasoning is sound, but can you tell me where it says that? I tend to agree with you, but by RAW I think even a half decent rules lawyer would have you by the short & curlies on this one...
It's still murky to me. You're right concerro, in this case the rules are poorly worded. It would be nice if there were some errata to clear this up.
There are other ideas to bring to the table on this one, but I'm not going to press it. It seems the consensus on the forum is that we have a "community house rule". Which is fine, and goes with the spirit of Pathfinder, "Remember that these rules are yours. You can change them to fit your needs."
I like that about Pathfinder. That spirit brings the game back to the original vision of Gygax and Arneson.
My scenario is that I'm working on a Druid build, and I was looking for a decent weapon selection for the low levels until he gets Wildshape. At that point this will be a non-issue. I think the combination is clever, and worthy of consideration. Ultimately my DM will need to decide how he wants to interpret this.
Thanks everyone for your input.
I'm sorry if the rules aren't clear enough for you, and your GM is of course free to rule how he wants.
However, the intent of the rules is well understood. The last bit of evidence I can give is to say to look at monsters that use quarterstaves. You will find that they all get 1x STR on the main hand, and 1/2x STR with the off. You can argue it is a "community house rule" if you do not agree with how people read it, but it is a "community house rule" shared by the developers.
Thanks Mort. That's better evidence. All I have is the Core Rulebook. How the monsters are written and handled by the developers gives better guidance on how to interpret this. That shows how the combination was implemented, even if a developer didn't specifically provide a ruling on this. I appreciate you following up.
No problem. Monsters and NPCs are a great, and often overlooked, source for figuring out rules like this. Just pop a feat or something into the PRD's search, and you can find almost everything they have ever published with it. Yay, technology!
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You could also do this: Go find a roughly 8'-9' (yup, this would be the actual length of a quarter-(or short-)staff) staff, or rod, or whatever.
Swing it like a greatsword, thrust like a spear, etc. - i.e. your hands are very close together, right on top of one another. These would be your example of using the quarterstaff as a 2handed weapon.
In the words of George Silver in his "Paradoxes of Defence" (pub. 1599):"...you shall stand upright, holding the staff upright close by your body, with your left hand, reaching with your right hand your staff as high as you can, and then allow to that length a space to set both your hands, when you come to fight, wherein you may conveniently strike, thrust, and ward, & that is the just length to be made according to your stature..." (The left hand holding the staff at waist level usually)
With your hands that far apart strike with each end alternately, even thrust with the hands in the same position. This would be an example of using it as a double weapon.
Then note amount of power you can generate with these different styles of fighting, and you'll see why you can apply 1.5 Str with a 2handed weapon as opposed to only normal with the primary and .5 STR w/the offhand... =)