Heres the idea in a nutshell, I'm thinking of making a two-handed glaive human fighter, using heavy armor w/ armor spikes, I don't intend on multiclassing this time, and just want to see some interesting things i can do with this class. Starting from level 1 going until I think level 18 or so.
Starting Feats would look something like weapon focus glaive,combat reflexes. So currently i have a 10ft reach because of my polearm, and then I can also choose to attack those within 5ft mainly relying on combat manuevers to trip, so I can take a 5ft step full round attack from 10ft again. While the opposition is still prone. :) The armor spikes act a light weapon for the purposes of combat so no provokes from melee combat from me. im thinking Stand still as another Feat choice seeing as it would stand to reason I would be the front line fighter forcing the opposition to deal with me, or suffer possibly falling flat on their face, or not moving at all.
Stand Still is not so great for a reach weapon user, you could only use it with the armor spikes because it only works on foes that were adjacent to you before moving.
What books can you use? Are you set on being human? The extra feat seems less useful to a Fighter, IMO. Dwarf is the best race for tripping, since they can trade stability for a +2 bonus, though other non-human races are also good.
any books pathfinder related really, so UC UM core and APG as well all apply, extra feats are usually always a good thing its why i like human as my main choice but half orc or dwarf wouldnt be out of the question.
Now this confuses me slightly seeing as I haven't actually seen anyone use the stand still feat but it would stand to reason you would get attempt to get past me to get to my healer / damage dealers of the party, and using something like stand still I can help prevent that taking the prereq combat reflexes seems like a for sure thing with the extra reach on my weapon. Then after I've stopped them, i would then take a 5 foot step and still have a full round attack action it seems like a solid idea, but im sure there are flaws im looking for holes to be poked. so poke away :)
quoting relevant text:
Benefit: When a foe provokes an attack of opportunity due to moving through your adjacent squares
You are not adjacent to the squares your polearm threatens, and so you cannot use stand still with it. Thats what Stream was referring to
Pin down is a far better feat than stand still.
If you're going with a reach weapon I would recommend Combat Reflexes (which you've got) and Power Attack for your first feats. Looks like you're going human too, so throw Weapon Focus: Glaive in.
Firstly,
Thanks to all reposting here. All input and advice is appreciated!
Now,
Weables, thanks! I understand that I couldn't provoke AoO in melee range with my polearm, hence the reasoning behind the armor spikes. I see how stand still may seem as a useless feat in some cases, but even with armor spikes in lower levels, im allowed stand still as opposed to pin down with is indeed a FAR better feat, but isnt allowed until 11th fighter level which go figure i can change my feats every 4 levels ;)
STR ranger
Pin Down is indeed a FAR better feat, and thanks for mentioning it, honestly didnt look that far down in levels yet still doing my beginning research. It is nice to know there is a feat that really makes up for stand still after I reach 11th fighter level. Unfortunately I am beginning this campaign as a level 1 fighter. (fortunately actually i love low level struggles. :) )
OmegaZ
Definately a great choice, and as a player that has used power attack I can hardly see an effective 2-handed fighter without PA. Followed by furious focus i might add. ;)
Unfortunately I'm trying something different, my current character being a totally over-powered lvl 15 paladin, has Power Attack, Furious Focus, Cleave, Greater Cleave. Now Although the Cleave feats were phenominal at lower levels, after about level 9 it definately lost all utility. It was almost always more valuable to take all of my attacks with all of my negatives, as opposed to using cleave in most instances.
Now to stop my rant a little short and get back to the point.
The reason for the stand still is to approach most fights with the mentality, of controlling the field and buying my casters and ranged dps time to whittle down my enemies, in the mean time, outmanuevering them, and preventing as much movement as possible. If any of you can think of a more effective way of achieving this, please feel free. All advice, and constructive critisicm is welcome. :)
Cheers!
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Any consideration of archetypes? Lore Warden, from the Pathfinder Society Field Guide, while giving up all but the light armors, gains Combat Expertise for free, along with getting additional skill points and getting all Int skills as class skills, and boosts to CMD/CMB as he levels. On the other hand, Polearm Master allows you to shorten your grip on your reach weapon to attack with it adjacent at a penalty.
If you are going into Trip, also consider Disarm.
Early feats:
Combat Reflexes
Combat Expertise
Improved Trip
Improved Disarm
Exotic Weapon Prof: Fauchard (from Classic Horrors Revisited, IIRC)
Fury's Fall (Cheliax book, adds Dex to CMB for trip attempts)
Depending on build:
Agile Maneuvers (higher Dex than Str)
Any feat requiring adjacency is NOT a good feat for this type of build, your strength will lie in keeping the enemy from getting adjacent to you.
Also consider going out of the box, and look at Monk and the Monk archetypes for tripping build options. Fast, multiple attempts even at 1st level, and lots of options,, including using a reach weapon while threatening adjacent squares built-in.
At the point your PC has both Greater Trip & Greater Disarm, it turns ugly. AoO Trip, gives an AoO to Disarm, opponent is prone, with weapon 15' away in a random direction. Not a place anyone wants to be, really.
Also remember to build in ability to do other thingsin combat, as there are opponents out there, especially as you level up, that will be untripable and non-disarmable. Flyers and natural weapon users (and Monks).
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If you want to be a controller and protect party members while using reach weapon take a look at this feat... in use with combat reflexes and any combat maneuver that works as an AO.
The feat Lunge is also nice with this...
Combat Patrol
Combat Patrol (Combat)
You range across the battlefield, dealing with threats wherever they arise.
Prerequisites: Combat reflexes, Mobility, base attack bonus +5.
Benefit: As a full-round action, you may set up a combat patrol, increasing your threatened area by 5 feet for every 5 points of your base attack bonus. Until the beginning of your next turn, you may make attacks of opportunity against any opponent in this threatened area that provokes attacks of opportunity. You may move as part of these attacks, provided your total movement before your next turn does not exceed your speed. Any movement you make provokes attacks of opportunity as normal.
Hey guys, been out of internet/ time, but first thanks for all the replies and advice.
Now Callarek,
Seriously awesome advice, I looked into the lore warden, and definately liked the possibility although the loss of the armor profiencies, as well as the armor training kind of hurts, but the skills whoe this class is fantastic. Allowing you combat expertise without a 13 int, is great, allowing me to redistribute my stats. I saw that you picked the faucard exotic weapon and why, do you know of any others, with along the same lines of polearms? As far as adding the monk class to the mix... what are the benefits, and downfalls to it, I know there are a series of interesting weapons that have the monk descriptor that allow its use with flurry, and with it great combat manuevers, and as I do get to higher levels I expect to change my style of play accordingly thanks to changing my feats every 4 levels.
Now Whipshire,
Thanks for the tip on a possible feat but that will definately be after I reach level 4 wwhere ill adjust my feats so that I may take that feat. It is very interesting and very viable.
Thanks again guys for all the input, and please keep it coming.
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Trip build:
1) Use a trip weapon, like HorseChopper.. lets you add the enhancement bonuses and such.
2) If home campaign, take Ancestoral Weapon, in PFS you can't convert it to masterworked / magic, in home you can. +2 to trip is pretty cool.
Feat line:
1) Combat Reflexes, Weapon Focus, Dodge
2) Combat Expertise
3) Mobility
4) Spring Attack, switch Weapon Focus for Whirlwind
5) Trip
6) Improved Trip
7) Lunge
8) Weapon Focus
@ 8 you'll be able to trip everyone 15 feet around (25 feet if friendly mage casts enlarge) @ Around +24 (+2 Heirloom, +4 feats, +6 strength, +2 weapon, +8 BAB, +1 training +1 WF), and get AOOs (with your bonus) on everyone that goes down. It's a really powerful build, it out "god mages" the God Mage :).
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1) Use a trip weapon, like HorseChopper.. lets you add the enhancement bonuses and such.
Feat line:
5) Trip
@ 8 you'll be able to trip everyone 15 feet around (25 feet if friendly mage casts enlarge) @ Around +24 (+2 Heirloom, +4 feats, +6 strength, +2 weapon, +8 BAB, +1 training +1 WF), and get AOOs (with your bonus) on everyone that goes down. It's a really powerful build, it out "god mages" the God Mage :).
On 1, that has been updated, the only benefit of a Trip weapon, which Fauchard is, by the way, is that you can drop it if you fail the trip by 10 or more to not get tripped.
On 5, what is the Trip feat?
Did you mean:
5) Improved Trip
6) Greater Trip
For Lore Warden, while it is nice, that free Combat Expertise does NOT bypass the need for an Int of 13+ for any of the Trip/Disarm/Drag?Reposition feats, since they all list it as a prereq, not just CE.
The main benefit is that you can get ahead a ways. Extra feats are good.
Human Fighter (Lore Warden) has 5 feats by second level.
Multiclassing always hurts. You just have to decide if the benefits from it outweigh the penalties.
I am running/building a Lore Warden in PFS who is currently 3rd level, and, for a module, built an 11th level version of him. For the build, I finally had to decide if I wanted to burn a level going Gunslinger, or just stay pure Lore Warden. Turned out that pure Lore Warden offered more benefits than having a pistol to take my inital attack with, and continuing the Indiana Jones build I had been pursuing.
My Lore Warden, who does use Combat Maneuvers, has not taken any of the feats past CE. However, since he is working on the Whip Mastery feat chain, he gets to use the maneuvers beyond AoO range of his targets, usually. His main issue was finding some way to make Acrobatics a class skill, and one of the traits takes care of that. On the 11th level build, his Trip modifier was +29 or +31 (if HeroLabs got it wrong, and missed one of his bonuses, which I think it did).
AoOs at 10', attacks at 15' without burning a feat on lunge. Minimal weapon damage (1d3), but the option to do lethal or non-lethal damage without any penalty. And, 2-handing the whip, with Power Attack, he does +24 damage.
Allowing you combat expertise without a 13 int, is great, allowing me to redistribute my stats.
Unfortunately almost all of the feats the have combat expertise as a prerequisite still require a 13 INT (it may not show up in the abbreviated view on the prd site or the d20pfsrd site, but when you look at the detailed description of these feats, the 13 INT is required along with combat expertise).
If you want to be a controller and protect party members while using reach weapon take a look at this feat... in use with combat reflexes and any combat maneuver that works as an AO.
The feat Lunge is also nice with this...
Combat Patrol
** spoiler omitted **
Keep in mind that using Combat Patrol forces you to spend a full round doing NOTHING, and you can be interrupted doing it. Once it's up, you now have a HUGE threatened area, effectively making yourself a living wall. But being able to get it up is going to be VERY situational.
The Lore Warden is effectively giving up 2 pts of AC by not having heavy armor. Remember, Armor Training only increases POTENTIAL Dex bonuses. Celestial Armor allows dex up to +8 (a 26). Unless you are going to get a Dex higher then that, you won't miss Armor Training...your penalties are already low. Armor Training is there to help you make full use of your Dex...but Light Armor basically allows you to do that, anyways.
===Aelryinth
I would suggest that you switch up where you use your favored class bonuses too. I like getting the human bonus to apply to sunder and grapple CMD early on -- after about level 10 you should have enough total bonus on those two checks to switch over to skill points or hit points if you want to.
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I agree with Aelryinth about Combat Patrol: it is a pretty low-value feat because it requires that you give up your attacks to setup the AoOs. That won't happen often, IMO. As mentioned, Lunge is useless with Combat Patrol, since the Lunge reach extension only happens on your own turn, not for the AoOs.
I like Lore Master a lot for reach weapon tripping builds. If you search this advice forum for Lore Warden and Master of Many Styles you can find a build that I posted that focuses on versatility, tripping and hitting things HARD (Power Attack combined with Tiger Pounce = big damage form a Fauchard).
Whatever you decide on with your build, make sure that you keep your trip CMB up high (lots of ways to do this) and pick up Greater Trip as soon as you can (BAB requirement of +6).
WOW JUST WOW! Thanks Guys! All this advice is Great!
Seriously didnt expect so many different posts, and views! Thanks to everyone!
Now 1 by 1.
Thalin,
Very interesting build, but I cannot take the heirloom weapon despite this being a home campaign, we have a tendency of running things very by the book, and a friend recently discovered the heirloom weapon has been errata'd (<-- not sure if its a word), and is apparently no longer really a viable option. As far as your choices of feats, many of them seem very stat dependent. Im trying to stick to a 16 point buy system. so im not sure if I can make something like an 18 happen. Atm I was thinking, something like Human gives me a +2 to str, so 16 STR, 15 Dex, 13 Con, 13 Int, 10 Cha<-- I lead alot, 8 Wis. If you find a better way of making that 18 happen and still giving me the requirements of all the other feats happen please let me know.
Axebeard,
Thanks for the heads up on that... definately lowers lunge on the totem pole of priority.
Callarek,
I love the idea of Indiana Jones! Its hilarious, but I have to admit I really enjoyed the build that Argus posted. Multi-classing with monk for the extra style feats, phenomenal. Although I must admit the +1 Dueling cost to a magic item sounds great! Thanks for pointing it out, as I have "yet" to purchase it, although I promise that will be remedied. :)
BigMac44
Thanks for pointing that out... it sucks, but it makes sense, I had initially only read prereq requirement, and not the extended list thanks for pointing it out.
Aelryinth
Wow, you just blew my mind a little, sorry I've been accustomed to playing Heavy plate wearers, that mostly had little to no dex, and with the current build I am using I'll have a +2 Dex mod to start and a +3 by 4th level. Meaning that I would have a +7 to my AC while still wearing light armor. As opposed to the +2 from getting full plate. Thanks for pointing that out!
Abraham spalding
Thanks for pointing that out... although I am a skill whore, I'll definately look into that, although tbh my GM doesn't really make full use of CM's and I feel those may be best for either extra Health if I'm taking hits often, or extra skills which I depend on, and use heavily.
Argus The Slayer
Holy SH*T DUDE! Its I think the build I want to play to a T. I searched the threads for fighter advice and builds, but I couldnt find anything that really peaked my interest... Until I went to your link. I need to read into it a bit more, but it seems to be exactly what I wanted. Thanks for not only posting here, but for providing the link as well! THANKS A TON!
Now as a finishing note to everyone that contributed to this thread and to those that have yet to as well but might! ;)
What are your thoughts on the build Argus posted?
Anyone see any major flaws in design?
I personally really like its concept, and the idea of me not just being another dumb fighter is really appealing. <--- NOT a shot at AM BARBARIAN btw. :P That guy makes me keel over laughing some nights.
Lastly,
Any thoughts on the Psychic Warrior? I hear people screaming OP, but I'm not sold. I think as all classes do, some classes have weaknesses, and strengths, and playing in a party you fill in the holes and make your game. So for those that have run one or just read into it... Thoughts? keeping in mind the build that Argus made,how would the two compare?
Thanks Again to All that have contributed, and continue to contribute!
Keep'em coming folks!
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Well, leadership can come from diplomacy, which a stat made. Heirloom isn't unusable, just different; actually, I am using one of the two useful potentials (+2 to a CMB) from it.
My build isn't that stat dependent. It assumes a +2 Str item and starting 18, easily achievable with 16 points
Str: 18
Int: 13
Wis: 10
Dex: 14
Con: 12
Chr: 7
Even if heirloom is illegal you'd be at +22, and even if you wanted a non-dumped charisma it'd be +21. That's enough to trip even most combat-heavy creatures, then AOO them at +27 (+2 on AOOs, +4 since they are grounded) for d10+11 damage... not as amazing damage as a "straight damage" build, but your job is mostly combat efficiency. And @ 9 you'll throw in power attack.
My only question thalin to your stat choices is why not dump wis over chr? is it simply for your will save?
also any other build suggestions? Thoughts?