My mystic theurge character is currently possessing a Shemhazian demon via a lucky casting of magic jar and I'm trying to figure out what his new attack routine is. On the one hand, Magic Jar's description states "A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks" yet also says "The body retains its Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, hit points, natural abilities, and automatic abilities." So do I get its full natural attack routine, my own +6/+1 two attacks or some other combination?
Also, in regards to the Shemazian body, what exactly are its "natural and automatic abilities"? Thanks!
Your BAB and subsequent attacks, though you can use the creatures claws in whatever order you want.
Both the Shemhazian's bite and claws are its primary attacks. So if my character normally has three attacks I could, say, bite over and over (like some kind of demented wood-chipper) while ignoring my claws, pincers and tail attacks? Whatever I do, there's simply no way to attack with the pincers and tail? Just want to make certain I understand the RAI.
I am not certain, but I think I'd stick with the Bite/Claw/Claw routine in order to err on the side of caution. Of course I don't see an issue with replacing one of the claws with a pincer or tail. So long as it's only 3 attacks I say pick and choose as you like.
So what about the Shemazian's natural and automatic abilities; what are they?
The strength drain seems to be automatic, so you can't turn it off and it would work on attacks.
Paralayzing gaze appears to be something that it activates, so you couldnt use that.
My 2C, but certainly not official.
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Generally when you possess a new target you USUALLY lose all spell-like & supernatural abilities, all feats and any mental abilities the target has.
In this particular case your Theurge would keep the natural attack routine and the movement abilities:
Speed 40 ft., climb 20 ft., fly 60 ft. (good)
Melee bite +25 (2d6+12), 2 claws +25 (2d6+12), 2 pincers +23 (1d12+6), tail slap +23 (2d6+6)
But lose the Strength Drain, Paralyzing Gaze, Telepathy, and all the Spell like abilities as well as the CMD & CMB being recalculated to use your BaB.
Now if you decided to pick up a weapon and swing that around you would be limited to YOUR number of attacks based on your Bab. Remember natural attacks use a different set of rules and are based on the body not the BaB.
The extra attacks clause in the spell is for making weapon based attacks, natural attacks are fine.
Speed 40 ft., climb 20 ft., fly 60 ft. (good)
Actually, I believe the demon's ability to fly is gained via its constant Fly spell-like ability, so that wouldn't stick around either. In fact, since Magic Jar clearly prevents the use of a target's spell-like, supernatural and even extraordinary abilities, it would seem that my character can't benefit from the demons:
Darkvision (Ex)
Scent (Ex)
Electricity & poison immunities (Ex)
Spell resistance (Ex)
Rend ability (Ex)
Telepathy (Su)
Damage Reduction (Su)
Paralyzing gaze (Su)
Strength drain (Su)
Fly (Sp)
True seeing (Sp)
Detect good (Sp)
So that leaves... Not much. That's why I'm wondering what, if anything, is considered a natural and automatic ability (beyond walking and talking) as far as the spell is concerned.
Remember natural attacks use a different set of rules and are based on the body not the BaB. The extra attacks clause in the spell is for making weapon based attacks, natural attacks are fine.
That was my initial inclination as well. I just figured that I'd check here to see what the consensus was. So far I've got two opposite opinions.
You replace its base attack and base save values with your own. You use your mental scores, but its physical scores. You retain all of your class abilities as well as all mental racial abilities not based on form. Though it is not clearly stated, it is best to assume that you use your own base skill ranks and feats. Other than that you pretty much use its stats.
As to the attack routine, if you have a base attack bonus of +6 you can make use of the creature's natural attacks, which will look like this:
bite +14 (2d6+12 plus 2d4 strength drain*), 2 claws +14 (2d6+12), 2 pincers +9 (1d12+6), tail slap +9 (2d6+6)
Alternatively, you could use a weapon, such as a gargantuan quarterstaff:
+18/+13 quarterstaff (3d6+18), bite +9 (2d6+6 plus 2d4 strength drain*), 2 pincers +9 (1d12+6), tail slap +9 (2d6+6)
* This appears to be an automatic ability.
* This appears to be an automatic ability.
But it's listed as being Supernatural, so that'd seem to exclude it.
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Without being able to look at it's image I had to take a wild guess whether it had wings or not. I guessed wrong.
Magic Jar is a wonderful spell to use if you want a big strong body and that's about all you can get from it. The natural attack rules are where 90% of the confusion for EVERYTHING seems to be coming from.
I personally love them bu they do tend to break so many corner case creatures that a good blog post should be made.
* This appears to be an automatic ability.But it's listed as being Supernatural, so that'd seem to exclude it.
Supernatural and extraordinary abilities are never excluded. They only can't be activated (such as a breath weapon). Something like a troll's regeneration can be used (despite being extraordinary) precisely because it doesn't need to be activated.
That's an interesting take on it. Is that the general consensus? So, of the abilities I listed above, which do you believe are retained?
That's an interesting take on it. Is that the general consensus? So, of the abilities I listed above, which do you believe are retained?
I honestly don't think you would lose any of them. One might argue that rend is activated, but that's a gray area I think.
EDIT: You wouldn't have access to the spell-like abilities.
i agree with RD, the spell reads you cannot activate its ex or su abilities not they don't stay active, i would read that as DR still works, SR still works but you cannot lower it, immunities, vision, senses etc are all still available.
its spell like abilities and other bits don't go with the body so all its buffs (like fly) go away and you cannot use them but obviously you can cast your own spells.
the way the attacks section reads is that a body with extra limbs doesn't let you make any more attacks than normal, so for example if you had a body with 4 arms you wouldn't be able to multi weapon fight. if your new body has several natural attacks they are seperate from the normal weapon attacks so you can make all of them as normal, i'd let rend work since its a mechanic of hitting with 2 attacks in a round and is always on, its not something you chose to activate.
I dunno.
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I would say abilities that you have to trigger don't work. Grab says:
it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity.
Since it takes an action to activate you would not be able to use that ability.
Rend doesn't require an action or an attack roll so I am not as sure about it.