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In PFS, can any of the alternate classes take archetypes for the class they mimic if they have the exact same abilities the archetype would replace? I.E. a ninja taking one of the rogue archetypes that replaces basic/improved uncanny dodge, or a samurai taking a cavalier archetype that replaces challenge and bonus feats.
The closest to a concrete answer I could find was this quote in a year-old thread:
For the playtest, use this rule of thumb.
1) If you are playing in the Pathfinder Society, assume no unless Mark and Hyrum tell you different.
2) If you are playing an at-home playtest, assume the answer is yes (as long as you GM is game). How viable are these options, do they seem fun to play or weird and cheesy? Those are all things I would like to know. The more concrete examples to back up your points the better.
I remember seeing commentary somewhere (which I can't find) that alternate classes are essentially giant archetypes, so by that definition combining the two would be a legal application of two archetypes. Has Mark or Mike ever directly weighed in on this? I'm assuming the answer is no for PFS, but figured it couldn't hurt to ask.
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I've been looking and I can't find anything saying you can or can not take archetypes with a alt-class. I would say that an Alt-class counts as an archetype in this case as so if it does not change any of the abilities needed for an 'second' archetype you can combine the two.
This is not an official though so you might have issues with other GM's until this is FAQ'ed. If you know your local GM(s) will not have a issue with it go for it. If you are worried that there might be a problem and don't want to have to fight the point I'd wait on the idea.
Hope this helps.
I have seen some people say no because the alternate classes are just mega-archetypes and I have seen some people say yes because there have been a few archetypes published specifically for alternate classes. And I am pretty sure I have seen both answers come from various developers of the game. I know James Jacobs has answered this before, but I cannot remember which way. But I think the only way you could do it is the way you gave in your examples, where you are choosing an archetype that replaces abilities that the alternate class has. Just remember, this has to be true for all abilities replaced, even if it a high level ability your character will never earn in PFS play.
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No... class archetypes are archetypes for those specific classes ONLY. You can't take ninja archetypes for rogues or vice versa.
I don't think that's right. Alternate classes count as their base class.. if the alternate class still has the ability an archetype for the base class has to replace, there's no reason the alternate class couldn't take it.
Example:
Ninjas can't take rogue archetypes that trade out trapfinding because they can't trade it.
Ninjas can take rogue archetypes that trade out say, sneak attack, because they still have that to trade out.
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No... class archetypes are archetypes for those specific classes ONLY. You can't take ninja archetypes for rogues or vice versa.I don't think that's right. Alternate classes count as their base class.. if the alternate class still has the ability an archetype for the base class has to replace, there's no reason the alternate class couldn't take it.
Example:
Ninjas can't take rogue archetypes that trade out trapfinding because they can't trade it.
Ninjas can take rogue archetypes that trade out say, sneak attack, because they still have that to trade out.
Or another way to say it..
Is yes alternate class is just a Super Archetype, but just like Archetypes you can take 2 if they do not replace the same abilities.
That said, there may not be many of them. Because alternate class touch soo much of the Base class it does not leave much room to fit an Archetype.
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That said, there may not be many of them. Because alternate class touch soo much of the Base class it does not leave much room to fit an Archetype.
I was mainly looking at the rogue archetypes. Many of them only swap out uncanny dodge and improved uncanny dodge, which overlays fine on the ninja.
Samurai run into more problems from what I can tell... not sure if there are any existing PFS-legal cavalier archetypes with class ability criteria met by the samurai.
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Or another way to say it..
Is yes alternate class is just a Super Archetype, but just like Archetypes you can take 2 if they do not replace the same abilities.
That's how I have understood it. I remember seeing a post by a developer (JJ? SKR?) that said that alt classes where basically archetypes with so many changes it just made sense to do it as a whole new stat block instead of just a list of changes.
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That's poster commentary and unfounded one. If the alternate classes were archetypes they'd be listed so, like the Anti-Paladin. But they're not... they're complete and separate classes.
ummmm.... no
Description of Alternate Class in Ultimate Combat
Alternate Classes
These are standalone classes whose basic ideas are very close to established base classes, yet whose required alterations would be too expansive for an archetype. In this case, that’s the samurai and the ninja—specifically Asian-themed classes that have long and unique histories, as well as great cultural cachet, but which are similar in concept to the established cavalier and rogue, respectively. An alternate class operates exactly as a base class, save that a character who takes a level in an alternate class can never take a level in its associated class—a samurai cannot also be a cavalier, and vice versa. The antipaladin from Advanced Player’s Guide is also an alternate class.
I have two questions. First, it was suggested to me to ask the second question in this thread; however, it isn't an off-topic question, unless you consider it as an off-topic discussion compared to the fact we are in an off-topic discussion thread. So is it okay to ask a question like my second question in this thread if I need an official answer and if I can't get the answer in another thread OR is there a better thread to post it under such as an Ask James Jacobs gaming-related thread? Whew, that was a long question.
The second question is this: I am making my first society character: a halfling ninja. Can my ninja take the "Blade of the Society" trait? My GM says I need an official answer before he will accept it since I am creating it for the Pathfinder Society.
It's absolutely okay!
For the Pathfinder Society, we maintain a list of all the approved products and options. I'm not sure where "Blade of the Society" is from off the top of my head... but the way to find out would be to look at the list of approved resources for character creation for PFS.
I was able to get an official answer! I got it at the "Ask James Jacobs All your Qestions...The question everyone has been wondering is whether or not alternate classes are like archetypes in that they can use the feats, traits, etc. as the primary class even when the requirement has the primary class as a requirement as long as archetype/alternate class has the ability to utilize the feat, trait, etc? For example using the second question in my last post as an example.Alternate classes like the antipaladin, ninja, and samurai ARE essentially archetypes. They're just archetypes for which we went through and gave you the full level advancement chart for. And artwork too! So as long as they didn't give up a class feature that is a requirement for a feat or whatever... yup... they still can take that feat/trait/thing.
I hope no one minds me partially necro-ing this thread, but I do have to ask, even if the Ninja may qualify as an archetype, Pathfinder does allow for the stacking of Archetypes as long as they do not replace the same abilities from the class. So, by that train of logic, wouldn't it be legal to do something like replace the Uncanny Dodge from Ninja with Scout? It equates to a very similar thing to (if Ninja was truly just like an Archetype of Rogue) putting the "Ninja Archetype" (which I am aware does not actually exist as a standalone archetype. I am just referring to it this way) and the Scout Archetype as layers over the Rogue.
This does in no way counter the point made by James Jacobs that you wrote since all he did was clarify that Ninjas were like Archetypes.
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There are only a few archetypes that work for Ninjas: Burglar, Bandit, Sanctified Rogue, Scout and Trapsmith. Every other one replaces trapfinding, which Ninjas are missing.
I don't see a problem with ninjas taking any of these 5 archetypes, since alternate classes aren't archetypes, just function like archetypes.