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8 Attacks per round at level 1, Synth Summoner

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From reading the rules, is it possible to get 8 attacks per round, using the following build? Using Extra Evolution and Multi-weapon fighting

Bipedal Eidolon,
Apply claws to Limbs (feet)
Apply limbs evolution twice

Wield 6 Daggers, and get 2 claw attacks? This doesn't make sense...

Edit: Sorry, misread/miscounted.

You could have a total of 3 natural attacks, and then however many limbs for multiple attacks, but you'd suffer penalties for it. The natural attacks would be at -5 and only apply half your strength to damage, and the regular weapons would be at -2.

So, if you had 6 daggers, and just the 2 claws on your feet (ignoring the claws you get for free) yes, you would have 8 attacks.

Doesn't claws give you Claw claw? Or am I mistaken in that regards?
Bakamoichigei wrote:
Doesn't claws give you Claw claw? Or am I mistaken in that regards?

Sorry, I don't understand what you mean. But I messed up my reply, and fixed it, so maybe it answers the question now?

You would have a to hit penalty of -2 on the one primary hand, -6 on the 5 off-hands, and -5 with the claws, which are -5 as secondary natural attacks.

Makes sense. Those are pretty bad penalties at level one.

You may as well use only 4 daggers and 4 claws, for that extra 1 to hit, since your initial arms come with claws anyway.

Effectiveness aside, you can only have three natural attacks, so you can't take claws for feet at level one anyway, since you already start with two claws as a biped.

I think you need to read up on the Summoner and Synthesist more carefully.
Nigrescence wrote:

You would have a to hit penalty of -2 on the one primary hand, -6 on the 5 off-hands, and -5 with the claws, which are -5 as secondary natural attacks.

Makes sense. Those are pretty bad penalties at level one.

You may as well use only 4 daggers and 4 claws, for that extra 1 to hit, since your initial arms come with claws anyway.

Effectiveness aside, you can only have three natural attacks, so you can't take claws for feet at level one anyway, since you already start with two claws as a biped.

I think you need to read up on the Summoner and Synthesist more carefully.

I'd say he could take the extra claws, he could just only use 3 natural attacks in one round. Be kinda like saying a fighter can only carry 1 weapon at first level, cause he only has 1 attack.

And I think the penalty to attack would be -2. -4/-4 for having multiweapon fighting (two-weapon fighting for more than 2 armed creatures) then since he has light weapons in his off hands, the penalty is reduced to -2/-2
Rocky Williams 530 wrote:
Bakamoichigei wrote:
Doesn't claws give you Claw claw? Or am I mistaken in that regards?
Sorry, I don't understand what you mean. But I messed up my reply, and fixed it, so maybe it answers the question now?

My apologies, I meant to say "wouldn't claws give you two claw attacks?" like Claw/Claw/Bite for so many creatures, and yes it does, thank you.

I don't think you can attack with both feet if you plan on standing that round... Maybe that's just me :P

Summoner is all sorts of potentially broken. Just think, if he weren't a synthesist, the eidolon could STILL do all that, and the summoner would have all his actions too.

When I first saw the summoner and evolution rules I immediately shhok my head and said "here we go!"
Rocky Williams 530 wrote:
Summoner is all sorts of potentially broken. Just think, if he weren't a synthesist, the eidolon could STILL do all that, and the summoner would have all his actions too.

Well, the eidolon would have to take the proficiency evolution at that point, or a feat. But yeah, summoners, op. /balance

Bakamoichigei wrote:

From reading the rules, is it possible to get 8 attacks per round, using the following build? Using Extra Evolution and Multi-weapon fighting

The prerequisite of the Extra Evolution feat: "Eidolon class feature"

The Fused Eidolon class feature of the Synthesist:

Quote:

Fused Eidolon

...

This ability replaces the class’s eidolon ability, bond senses, and life bond.

So you have the Fused Eidolon class feature, which replaces the Eidolon class feature. So you cannot take the Extra Evolution feat since you do not meet its prerequisite.

Grand Lodge
Bakamoichigei wrote:
Doesn't claws give you Claw claw? Or am I mistaken in that regards?

Yes it does, but that counts as two of your allowed three.

Yeah, I was off with the MWF penalties for the weapons. That's what I get for not having ever played with TWF. The natural attacks are still counted as secondary, for a -5, and you still invest a lot that can go to... better things, while still having a strong Eidolon. You are also still stuck to three natural attacks at level one.
Corodix wrote:
Bakamoichigei wrote:

From reading the rules, is it possible to get 8 attacks per round, using the following build? Using Extra Evolution and Multi-weapon fighting

The prerequisite of the Extra Evolution feat: "Eidolon class feature"

The Fused Eidolon class feature of the Synthesist:

Quote:

Fused Eidolon

...

This ability replaces the class’s eidolon ability, bond senses, and life bond.

So you have the Fused Eidolon class feature, which replaces the Eidolon class feature. So you cannot take the Extra Evolution feat since you do not meet its prerequisite.

Close, but:

"In all other cases, this ability functions as the summoner’s normal eidolon ability (for example, the synthesist cannot use his summon monster ability while the eidolon is present)."
While he doesn't have the class's eidolon ability, he has one that counts as such.

http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz3v54&page=7?Ultimate-Magic-Errata#337

I believe I read somewhere that SKR's opinions are not necessarily OFFICIAL, I do think this lends some weight to the idea that fused eidolon allows extra evolution feat. Though, ultimately, it would be up to the DM to decide.
Rocky Williams 530 wrote:

http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz3v54&page=7?Ultimate-Magic-Errata#337

I believe I read somewhere that SKR's opinions are not necessarily OFFICIAL, I do think this lends some weight to the idea that fused eidolon allows extra evolution feat. Though, ultimately, it would be up to the DM to decide.

That wasn't his opinion, he was quoting the rules...

Yes, but I'm sure there are still people who will argue. I haven't been on the boards long, but I've seen people argue over stuff as simple as the results of 2+2. So I just figured I'd add that in.
Rocky Williams 530 wrote:
Yes, but I'm sure there are still people who will argue. I haven't been on the boards long, but I've seen people argue over stuff as simple as the results of 2+2. So I just figured I'd add that in.
Ok... Just make sure you mention that the rules say:
Quote:
In all other cases, this ability functions as the summoner’s normal eidolon ability (for example, the synthesist cannot use his summon monster ability while the eidolon is present).

Don't push it off as mere developer opinion :P

8 attacks is pretty cool at any level. Even if you can't confirm it, you are going to get a natural 20 every two or three rounds.

Ah, that's good to know, thanks for pointing out my mistake there.
Corodix wrote:
Ah, that's good to know, thanks for pointing out my mistake there.

Its no big. As a side note, its humorous to me that the line was put in to make sure they weren't abusing their other class features, which in turn allowed them to become more powerful. Funny how that works :P

Dark Archive

Look at it this way:

Normal Synth (level 1, bite + extra Str evolutions)
Bite / Claw / Claw
+5 to hit D6 + 4 / d4 + 4 / d4 + 4

Arm-a-Syth
Dagger * 6 / Claw/ Claw
6 * +2 to hit (d4+2)
2* -3 to hit (d4+2)

Average damage vs AC 15

Normal
7.5 * .55 + 6.5 * .55 6.5 * .55 = 20.5 * .55 = 11.275 DMG / rd + .6 (crit add) = 11.875

Arm-man:
(4.5 * .4) * 6 + (4.5 * .15) = 11.1 + 1.38 (crit add) = 12.48

Huh; guess it does come out favorable :). It does work out early, but later large attacks with haste bonus and the ability to get amulets of natural armor easier, the regular Eidilon will eventually surpass "arm man" in terms of effectiveness. But out-of-the-box that does appear the optimal way to go. Good to know :).
Thalin wrote:

Look at it this way:

Normal Synth (level 1, bite + extra Str evolutions)
Bite / Claw / Claw
+5 to hit D6 + 4 / d4 + 4 / d4 + 4

Arm-a-Syth
Dagger * 6 / Claw/ Claw
6 * +2 to hit (d4+2)
2* -1 to hit (d4+2)

Average damage vs AC 15

Normal
7.5 * .55 + 6.5 * .55 6.5 * .55 = 20.5 * .55 = 11.275 DMG / rd + .6 (crit add) = 11.875

Arm-man:
(4.5 * .4) * 6 + (4.5 * .25)*2 = 11.1 + 2.25 (crit add?) = 13.36

Huh; guess it does come out favorable :). It does work out early, but later large attacks with haste bonus and the ability to get amulets of natural armor easier, the regular Eidilon will eventually surpass "arm man" in terms of effectiveness. But out-of-the-box that does appear the optimal way to go. Good to know :).

Note that the natural weapons are not off hand, therefore they do not take TWF penalties. Made the appropriate changes. Don't know how you calculated crit chances though

Natural attacks made while using manufactured weapons always count as secondary natural attacks, which have a penalty of -5. This is wholly separate from TWF or MWF. Even if they use just one weapon, just one dagger, or just one greatsword, their natural attacks are secondary natural attacks, with a penalty of -5.

To help things even further, you could take the multiattack feat eventually. Makes all secondary attacks with natural weapons take a -2 instead of the -5. Still only half strength bonus to damage though.

He can not take Multiweapon Fighting at level 1 as a bipedal eidolon, his dex is not high enough to qualify.

I didn't mean at first level, I meant eventually.

Also, you are spending 5 evolution points to create your eidolon at level 1 (2 sets of arms (4 evolution points) and a set of claws on the feet (1 evolution point)).

Since you can only take Extra Evolution once at level 1, the most points you could get is 4. So you'd have to drop the extra claws or a set of arms.
Either way, you lose two of your potential attacks.

Though you could recoup those with other evolution choices I suppose..
arms (2 points), bite (1 point), tentacle (1 point)
Attack with 3 daggers, 1 claw, 1 bite, 1 tentacle.
Then you're back up to 6 again. =)

He's only spending 4 the way he set it up. 4 for the 2 sets of extra limbs. The claws are given for free. He's applying them to his feet, instead of hands. Other than the issue pointed out above about being able to stand and use both feet as a weapon (maybe he just kicks real quick?), I don't think it's required the free claws be applied to the hands.
PRD wrote:


Max. Attacks: This indicates the maximum number of natural attacks that the eidolon is allowed to possess at the given level. If the eidolon is at its maximum, it cannot take evolutions that grant additional natural attacks. This does not include attacks made with weapons.

As italicized, the eidolon can't possess more natural attacks than permitted by level. The limitation is possession, not usage. A bipedal eidolon possesses two natural attacks by default. At 1st level, you cannot take any evolution for it that would give it more than one additional natural attack. That means you cannot put an additional pair of claws on it.

While I commend the idea of the Stab-o-Matic 5000 eidolon, it runs into the following additional rules problems:


  • It is not proficient in any weapons unless you spend 2 evolution points on Weapon Training.
  • Without taking the Weapon Training evolution, it cannot wield weapons in any limbs.
    Limbs evolution:
    Arms that have hands can be used to wield weapons, if the eidolon is proficient.

  • It cannot take Multiweapon Fighting until it either spends 2 evolution points to pump its Dex to 14 or until the summoner is 6th level, has put the eidolon's 5th level ability increase into Dex and is eligible for another feat.
  • Taking Multiweapon Fighting requires GM approval in any case as nothing about the eidolon's description says it can take monster feats (which are restricted as a general rule).
  • It just doesn't have the evolution points to do this anywhere near 1st level regardless.

At 6th level, a potential Stab-o-Matic 5000 who summoner blew 2/3 of his feats on Extra Evolution could have:
+1 Dex ability increase
default evolutions
claws (1ep) - on legs
improved damage (1ep) - claws 1d6
skilled (1ep) - +8 racial bonus to Use Magic Device... may as well also carry some wands with all these arms
ability increase (2ep) - +2 Str
limbs (6ep) - three extra pairs of arms
Feats - 1) martial weapon proficiency (kukri), 3) weapon focus (kukri), 6) Multiweapon Fighting (w/ GM approval)

Str 18, BAB +5. Full attack of 8 kukri +8 atk (1d4+4 on 1 and 1d4+2 on the other 7, 18-20/x2), 4 claw +4 atk (1d6+2, 20/x2). Anything with half a brain won't let it take full attacks, and its attack roll modifiers are subpar.

The summoner is a synthesist. So you use the synthesists weapon proficiency feats. There's nothing specifically restricting you from taking monster feats that I know of, other than the pre-reqs sometimes, or the fact that they're not much use to PC's.

You can't do it in pfs, that's enough reason for some GM's.

True. My DM knows nothing about pfs, and has no care to (not knocking it, he just prefers his own campaign to anything else), and that works in our favor as often as not. Though, after my synthesist finally died, he banned summoners completely from the game. Too broken he said.

good decision on his part

I don't agree - banning anything as it's 'broken' is poor.

Put up any request on the boards and you will get a multitude of posts helpfully putting together a machine designed to be a one trick pony. (be it; Fighter, Gunslinger, Feral Alchemist, Wizard etc)

A GM can (with some thought) provide challenges for anything.

for example; I would like to see this character face off against a swarm...

(or my personal favourite from another GM on the boards, take the character generated, raise it's level by 2-3, give it a description all of its' own and send it back to attack the party).

I agree just fine. I played a synthesist. And not an optimized synthesist. I still was tougher than any character in the party. A regular summoner, while having an uncovered sommoner being a target, would also have been even more powerful. More actions and abilities to use. But still, whether anyone agrees or not. He's the DM, and he made the call :)

'Optimised' can mean anything in this game.

I don't have any cheesy builds in my campaigns (players or my own characters), I do see several at the PFS table (so my GM style has to be flexible to accommodate all players - I don't get the luxury of banning anything - other than limitations within PFS).

Not bagging your GM out of hand - I don't know his players or the maturity level of the group etc..Still seems harsh (but totally his call - I am not putting him down, it's not my style - So big respect to him/her etc..).

I find focusing on having/being 'effective' in my role(s) within the party makes all the difference.

In our Kingmaker campaign; I fulfil the role of the fighter in the party with a summoner (over some opposition from some more traditional players) and it has provided us with some very memorable moments. The Eidolon isn't over-engineered and being able to run away whilst he has 'held the line' has staved off us being overrun twice so far.

But I think rather than compare your Summoner to the party compare him to a Bestial Alchemist (Rage, Claws etc...) or a decent barbarian or Fighter build.. You'll find it balances out.

Hope you are enjoying the game, It sounds like you're all having fun which is the main thing.
PRD wrote:
The synthesist is still limited to the eidolon's maximum number of natural attacks.

Level 1 is 3 attacks.

The synthesist is still limited to the eidolon's maximum number of natural attacks.

Quote:

Max. Attacks

This indicates the maximum number of natural attacks that the eidolon is allowed to possess at the given level. If the eidolon is at its maximum, it cannot take evolutions that grant additional natural attacks. This does not include attacks made with weapons.
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