New GM, need some advice

[daveydwb]

Hey everybody! I just got into Pathfinder and I'm loving it so far. I started GMing a campaign and had a question:

One of my players rolled a Rogue. After taking some damage and coming close to being knocked unconcious he got butthurt that he had no way of dodging. Now, as far as I've read there is no "dodge" mechanic - meaning, there's nothing that says you can roll a die to see if you evade an attack. Am I right, or am I missing something? If not, I'm considering adding one. Has anyone done that, and how successful were you?

[Talon Moonwalker]

I haven't added one in, although there is a mechanic that would allow you to have a variable AC perhaps. I am unsure as to how effective it would be however.

Essentially roll a d20 and add modifiers as standard and that is your AC for the round. However, it doubles the number of rolls needed per combat, and so might well slow things down.

[Paul Zagieboylo]

It's built in; it's the character's Dexterity modifier. Having a high Dex makes it less likely that enemies will hit you, because you're good at dodging. If he doesn't think it's enough, tell him to take the Dodge feat (a solid choice for any melee combatant anyway). Since this is a brand-new campaign, you might want to let him rebuild his character just a little if he made some bad choices out of ignorance.

However, low-level rogues do tend to have annoyingly low AC; it's just one of the disadvantages of being a rogue (until they can afford rings of deflection and +1 chain shirts). If he's especially sad, see if he can get his wizard to cast mage armor on him, which is probably better than that leather or whatever he's got.

Of course, nothing will save him from enemies that insist on rolling 17s constantly. The rogue in our campaign is all sad because ever since he bought a shiny +1 mithral chain shirt to boost his AC up to 19, nothing has ever missed even a single attack on him. It's quite alarming.

[bigkilla]

There is no dodge mechanic. Dodging is basically figured in to your AC.There is a dodge aspect to AC, taking the dodge feat will give you one better AC to dodge.

I think that adding a dodge mechanic past what the AC is meant to represent will add further imbalance to the game.

[tonyz]

There's also fighting defensively -- (-4 to attacks, +2 dodge to AC, or more if you have enough ranks in Acrobatics) or total defense (no attacks, +4 dodge to AC). Those represent someone spending lots of extra time dodging/parrying/whatever.

Rogues need to use those rules, heavily.

[daveydwb]

Thanks for the advice! I told him that it's all AC. I think he has a specific idea of a Rogue that doesn't really match the fantasy tabletop Rogue.

bigkilla - That's one thing that worries me. I would have to figure out a way for everyone to use it, and the Paladin in the group dodging wouldn't really make sense. I guess my Rogue just feels like he doesn't have much control when he's attacked.

[Quatar]

Combat Expertise lets you improve figthing defensively even more, by having the same penalty as the bonus and not twice as much.

However especially TWF rogues already have not the highest attack already, reducing it even more for more AC might not always be the best.

Also remember there's nothing that allows a fighter to parry or block, that's all kinda simulated by the AC and all. Yes it's not always perfect, but D&D or PF is not meant to be a perfect simulation it's a game and sometimes for the sake of playability some compromises have to be made.

[bigkilla]

daveydwb wrote:

Thanks for the advice! I told him that it's all AC. I think he has a specific idea of a Rogue that doesn't really match the fantasy tabletop Rogue.

bigkilla - That's one thing that worries me. I would have to figure out a way for everyone to use it, and the Paladin in the group dodging wouldn't really make sense. I guess my Rogue just feels like he doesn't have much control when he's attacked.

Rogues are sneaky, they don't get attacked!!

[Ion Raven]

Dexterity would do double the defense! (Dexterity to AC + Dexterity to dodge all attacks) Seriously though, dexterity is a pretty nice stat. Regardless TWF will always be a pain (which I think your player is going for) because all the feats you need to take to make it feasible.

To make it simple, in the d20 system, melee is out-damaged by ranged (spells and arrows) and melee is more important for defense purposes. Two weapon fighting is just not well supported in this system.

If you're going to do anything as far as houserules, I would suggest maybe making Dodge scale with BAB (and Dex). It would help out your dexterity characters and I don't think it would be too gamebreaking.

[BigNorseWolf]

Snake Style (Combat, Style)

You watch your foe’s every movement and then punch through its defense.

Prerequisite: Improved Unarmed Strike, Acrobatics 1 rank, Sense Motive 3 ranks.

Benefit: You gain a +2 bonus on Sense Motive checks, and you can deal piercing damage with your unarmed strikes. While using the Snake Style feat, when an opponent targets you with a melee or ranged attack, you can spend an immediate action to make a Sense Motive check. You can use the result as your AC or touch AC against that attack. You must be aware of the attack and not flat-footed.

Normal: An unarmed strike deals bludgeoning damage.

[weiknarf]

Defensive Roll (Ex)

Prerequisite: Advanced talents

Benefit: With this advanced talent, the rogue can roll with a potentially lethal blow to take less damage from it than she otherwise would. Once per day, when she would be reduced to 0 or fewer hit points by damage in combat (from a weapon or other blow, not a spell or special ability), the rogue can attempt to roll with the damage. To use this ability, the rogue must attempt a Reflex saving throw (DC = damage dealt). If the save succeeds, she takes only half damage from the blow; if it fails, she takes full damage. She must be aware of the attack and able to react to it in order to execute her defensive roll—if she is denied her Dexterity bonus to AC, she can't use this ability. Since this effect would not normally allow a character to make a Reflex save for half damage, the rogue's evasion ability does not apply to the defensive roll.

[daveydwb]

Great feats! I really like the Defensive Roll. I see "TWF Rogue" mentioned a couple times, what does that mean?

[wraithstrike]

That is a talent for level 10 rogues. It is not a feat.

[BigNorseWolf]

daveydwb wrote:

Great feats! I really like the Defensive Roll. I see "TWF Rogue" mentioned a couple times, what does that mean?

TWF= two weapon fighting. In theory, a rogue can do a lot of damage by stabbing a foe two (or more) times in the same round with say, two daggers, because they get a sneak attack on each one.

In practice, most find that its VERY hard to set up a full round flanking sneak attack, and its even harder for a rogue to hit with all of their attacks when doing so because of the penalties on two weapon fighting.

[Robespierre]

bigkilla wrote:

daveydwb wrote:

Thanks for the advice! I told him that it's all AC. I think he has a specific idea of a Rogue that doesn't really match the fantasy tabletop Rogue.

bigkilla - That's one thing that worries me. I would have to figure out a way for everyone to use it, and the Paladin in the group dodging wouldn't really make sense. I guess my Rogue just feels like he doesn't have much control when he's attacked.

Rogues are sneaky, they don't get attacked!!

Actually they get attacked or the don't deal any decent damage. That's the problem the with the rogue, they have a harder time hitting, they deal less damage even with sneak attack up, they can't take a hit, they have bad saves, and their damage is barely noticeable when they don't sneak attack.