1. First a general question: Is there a finessable polearm reach weapon?
Or a reach weapon at all except the whip?
Perhaps something like this:
with the trip weapon quality?
Or a staff weapon like a quarterstaff, but maybe longer, finessable?
I´m thinking on something like monkey kung fu style with this weapon, where you use it to lunge and jump and trip around you.
The character in question would be a 3/4 BAB DEX.
2. Then another question:
With the upcoming pirate stuff, what would or could serve as a cutlass?
And should it also be finessable?
Don't recall seeing a finessable polearm, but the Ji would probably be a Guisarme.
As for a cutlass, my group always rules it as a short sword that does slashing, so it could be used with finesse.
1. First a general question: Is there a finessable polearm reach weapon?
Or a reach weapon at all except the whip?Perhaps something like this:
with the trip weapon quality?
Or a staff weapon like a quarterstaff, but maybe longer, finessable?
I´m thinking on something like monkey kung fu style with this weapon, where you use it to lunge and jump and trip around you.
The character in question would be a 3/4 BAB DEX.2. Then another question:
With the upcoming pirate stuff, what would or could serve as a cutlass?
And should it also be finessable?
Tiny size Guisarme. Kinda a crappy solution because it has a built in -4 for being the wrong size, but you get a finesseable reach pole arm with trip. Sure, it deals 1d4 and it is dumb, but that is the main way you get to do it, outside some special magic. If you were willing to fight with that penalty, I would let you get the reach on it.
Cutlass is a scimitar, possibly just add the one-handed rule from the rapier and finesse. Scimitar is the generic saber the game offers, so I would tend to work from that.
Otherwise, I second the slashing shortsword.
Making it tiny does not change the base category for the weapon.
That depends on how your read the rules on that one wraith.
They can be understood that it also changes size catagory otherwise you would still get -1/+3 PA for a Two-handed weapon that is now shrunk down to a Light weapon for you.
There should be some more easy living stuff for DEX builds.
Not all about the damage, but more to hit etc.
I really think fluffwise it makes often more sense.
Actually the category does change with size. I stand corrected. :)
Reach Weapons: A reach weapon is a melee weapon that allows its wielder to strike at targets that aren't adjacent to him. Most reach weapons double the wielder's natural reach, meaning that a typical Small or Medium wielder of such a weapon can attack a creature 10 feet away, but not a creature in an adjacent square. A typical Large character wielding a reach weapon of the appropriate size can attack a creature 15 or 20 feet away, but not adjacent creatures or creatures up to 10 feet away
Nothing in the description changes that reach doubles the weilders natural reach as dumb as it sounds per RAW a Tiny Glaive can be used with finesse to attack something 10 ft away.
A tiny reach weapon would only have a reach of 5 ft, not 10ft.
For all practical purposes agreed. Truth be told, I was remembering a time that I used a small longspear in 3.5 to cheese out a reach weapon duelist. That is why I had that idea at all. Granted, you can do some mental backflips and get it to work from the text, but common sense rules my honest thinking here. I was just trying to give some kind of idea regarding this. Basically it was an off the cuff "You deal with sucky stats, you get exactly what you want RAW(ish)"
Otherwise best I can say is just invent an exotic weapon version of Guisarme. Two/three choices then, depending on importance of strength to the character.
Make it exotic.
Then pick one of the following.
A: Add the finesse line AND no bonus damage from two-handing line from the rapier.
B: Lower the damage to 1d6 and just add finesse, but leave the strength to damage from two-handing alone.
C: Say to yourself that all of the APG and UC weapons overall are better than their basic counterparts, with no tradeoff (Darn all those little odd bonuses making it more difficult to juggle weapon comparison). Just add finesse and be done with it.
So if it lets you as a tiny creature attack something 5ft further away than you can reach with your arms.
Why does it shorten to less than 5ft past your arms if you get bigger.
Your claiming the weapon gets shorter now that the user got bigger otherwise if it has the same length then thats 5ft further for the small or medium guy.
Notice how using a huge whip Two handed doesn't give you more length even though 15ft of whip is kinda small for a creature that big.
Reach and range and even spell size don't change with size only the handedness and damage(which is the same for spells.) Think about it why would a war fought between colossal creatures bother with AoE spells 20ft and a reflex is one guy but scale down to diminutave sized armies and 20ft might get millions of combants
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Remember that that tiny polearm doubles the 2.5' reach, so it is only 5' long, and therefore won't add anything to someone whose reach is already 5'.
Better off using the whip with the Whip Mastery feat chain. That ends up with similar damage, and the equivalent of the Lunge feat built in, along with being able to take AoOs within the normal 10' reach area of other polearms, once you reach that BAB +5 marker and gain Improved Whip Mastery.
The whip is also elegable for the Agile enhancement, since it is finesseable, and the Piranha Strike benefits. Or you can just go for a Strength build, and go Power Attack, and save on multiple feats to use for the Whip Mastery chain...
No it doubles the users reach Otherwise Titan maulers (when fixed) will become gods of controlling the battle field with their I think huge reach weapons and 20ft of reach and only lacking 5ft worth of attacking room.
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No it doubles the users reach Otherwise Titan maulers (when fixed) will become gods of controlling the battle field with their I think huge reach weapons and 20ft of reach and only lacking 5ft worth of attacking room.
Not quite, and incorrect.
With a 15' reach weapon, other than the whip, you would only be able to attack at the full reach, just like a 10' reach weapon. It isn't a nun-chuk or flail, it is a pole with a pointy thing at the end, and only the end can make attacks.
You are right on that one forgot that the extra 5 feat is basicly natural reach on a large creature.
Though it still stands that weapons reach lenghts don't change based on the user otherwise bigger swords would gain reach for smaller users and whips would have to have different lengths based on who it is sized for.
Yes at this time note i said when fixed as the designer did weigh in on the fact that it is supposed to have the ability to use weapons outside those rules.
Now please point out the actual rules that say reach weapons only funtion as reach weapons within x changes in size catagory.
Its not he can't use it.
Edit also to point out I would beat a player with the heavist book at the table for attempting this i just feel the best way to help DM's who have jerkish rules lawyers is to play the Devil's advocate once in a while and be the guy argue for using a 15ft whip as a 1ft fae.
Its a reach weapon nothing takes away that property which has static rules for how it works.
Just like how the tiniest longbow still shoots 1100ft total even if in scale thats miles of distance for the shooter. Who would have no clue what he is even beginning to aim at.
On that note that could actually make stealth harder for like ant size creature since 10ft per -1 is a really big difference for them.
Also on a comical side note I Just realized a 50ft tall creature with lets say 2 wis (highly unlikly) is a -10 to see his own feet.
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Remember that that tiny polearm doubles the 2.5' reach, so it is only 5' long, and therefore won't add anything to someone whose reach is already 5'.
Better off using the whip with the Whip Mastery feat chain. That ends up with similar damage, and the equivalent of the Lunge feat built in, along with being able to take AoOs within the normal 10' reach area of other polearms, once you reach that BAB +5 marker and gain Improved Whip Mastery.
The whip is also elegable for the Agile enhancement, since it is finesseable, and the Piranha Strike benefits. Or you can just go for a Strength build, and go Power Attack, and save on multiple feats to use for the Whip Mastery chain...
Just so you know, Piranha Strike can't be added onto the Whip, as it's a one-handed weapon. Also, you can two-hand a whip for more damage if you've got a +2 Strength mod or higher.
Well heck i even quoted that and missed it well played sir.
How would you feel as a DM with allowing a character to use a one size category smaller weapon for reach and a shield?
edit entire post:How did I miss that, and I was looking for it.
No was talking to Khyasor but thanks.
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Just so you know, Piranha Strike can't be added onto the Whip, as it's a one-handed weapon. Also, you can two-hand a whip for more damage if you've got a +2 Strength mod or higher.Remember that that tiny polearm doubles the 2.5' reach, so it is only 5' long, and therefore won't add anything to someone whose reach is already 5'.
Better off using the whip with the Whip Mastery feat chain. That ends up with similar damage, and the equivalent of the Lunge feat built in, along with being able to take AoOs within the normal 10' reach area of other polearms, once you reach that BAB +5 marker and gain Improved Whip Mastery.
The whip is also elegable for the Agile enhancement, since it is finesseable, and the Piranha Strike benefits. Or you can just go for a Strength build, and go Power Attack, and save on multiple feats to use for the Whip Mastery chain...
I was trying to be helpful, never actually had a build that uses Piranha Strike. My Dex-based CM fighter uses a Fauchard and Agile Maneuvers instead.
My Lore Warden who wields a whip is actually Strength-based, and just took Power Attack at 3rd level. Weapon Specialization is planned for 4th, and Improved Whip Mastery, and two-handing his whip, is planned for 5th level.
Remember in this case though we are talking two sizes with the same reach so if it isn't long enough for one it shouldn't be long enough for the other.
Basicly I'm saying if your arms are shorter than mine but we can hit guys at the same distance then a weapon that lets you reach something farther has to be long enough for me to reach something farther with.
I wouldn't call it cheese. It does not help verisimilitude though.
Cheese to me implies a very over the top mechanical advantage. This would look silly to me, but it is not sillier than someone the size of a 5 year old already threatening 10 feet of space anyway.
If its not long enough for a larger creature with the same natural reach to use as a reach weapon how does the halfling get reach from it?
If it were like that the halfling should be able to two-hand a medium short-spear and it gain reach but it doesn't. I agree that going smaller than that would get kinda dumb but both these creatures have the same reach.
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This is one think i liked from 3.0and 4e the weapons only had one size for both small and medium so halfling didn't use halfling greatswords they used human longswords thus keeping most of this kinda of insanity undercontrol.
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I wouldn't call it cheese. It does not help verisimilitude though.
Cheese to me implies a very over the top mechanical advantage. This would look silly to me, but it is not sillier than someone the size of a 5 year old already threatening 10 feet of space anyway.
I didn't mean cheesy in the standard mechanical-lingo usage. I intended it to mean silly.
It occurs to me that there is no space in the rules for some builds or ideas from history or real life.
Maybe Paizo will have the future grace to add something like that.
A place where non full BAB classes can take up finesse builds and maneuvers a little bit easier but still stand their place then, also with reach weapons.
Best idea is probably to create a new weapon like the New Anomaly suggested. Thanks for that.
Using wepaons of small or tiny size could be in the rules, but feels awkward a little bit and i also don´t like rules lawywering.
I want to play and have fun and i want the same for the people playing with me.
Then -4 to hit isn´t a good thing in most cases too, effectively rendering the thing useless.
I remember the feats "near and far" and "shaft and shield" from a 3PP which i found rather good.
Wielding a spear in one hand, even a long spear, seems ok to me, it has historic precedence (spoken: bretzelence). Just watch Troia movie, Achilles and Paris fighting and watch their distance.
Or look at hoplites, wielding lances from 2m to 6m in one hand and a very heavy shield in the other. (Yes i know there is a fighter archetype for that, but thats not the point. I essentially think others should be able to do the same. Most classes are already paying off with their BAB or other stuff.)
And seriously, wielding a whip with two hands for a power attack, thats ridiculous cheesy even if rules correct.
@ Talonhawke, you are saying that weapons like the Greatsword should be reach weapon?
No I'm saying that if a weapon grants reach to a small creature then logic dictates it has to be long enough to grant reach to a medium creature as the both have 5ft reach.