I dug through some old threads on this, and still couldn't see a clear answer.
Does heighten spell essentially allow you to make your other metamagic spells have a spell level/DC on par with their spell slot (i.e. heightened quickened magic missile becoming a 5th level spell, with a base 15 DC)?
Well, magic missile doesn't have a save. But yeah, a burning hands heightened to 5th level would have a BASE save DC of 15.
Master Arminas
I dug through some old threads on this, and still couldn't see a clear answer.
Does heighten spell essentially allow you to make your other metamagic spells have a spell level/DC on par with their spell slot (i.e. heightened quickened magic missile becoming a 5th level spell, with a base 15 DC)?
No, it doesn't work that way. The adjustments to a spells level are added together. They don't overlap at all.
If you heighten a 1st level spell to 5th level, then apply quicken spell, the save DC is as a 5th level spell but requires a 9th level slot to cast.
Missed the part about quickened. Oops. Like Jeraa said. Only difference is with heighten the spell level adjustment isn't fixed at +1, +2, +3, or +4: you get to pick it. But you can't go over 9th level and you can't go over your maximum spell level.
Master Arminas
Heh, my brain was fried when I used MM as an example.
The way the feat reads in the CRB, it seems to me that it's simply allowing a caster to have an appropriately increased DC for all of their metamagic spells.
If a heightened (to 5th) quickened burning hands would take a 9th level slot, and still only have a base DC of 15, then I can't see where this is anything other than a completely and totally worthless feat.
Question #1) Was this topic ever clarified by a dev? I know the old threads were asking for that, but I didn't see any dev response.
If you wanted to get into epic play, even hodgepodging the rough guidelines that Pathfinder suggests, then you'd have to houserule heightened spell, or otherwise casters would get weaker the further they progressed.
Question #2) If this is worthless, as written, has anyone houseruled it, to work the way I'm wanting it to work, and if so, how has it affected game balance?
Question #3) Especially considering epic shenanigans, wouldn't removing the 9th level metacap also be required?
Highten Spell is most certainly NOT worthless.
It increases the save DC of spells, making low level spells with interesting, fun, or powerful effects usable into much later levels, which is a boon to spontaneous casters (especially sorcerers) who have a very limited selection of spells known.
Clerics can make great use of it as well, as there are some less than overwhelming spell levels, and strengthening a lower level spell is great to fill out the slots, as well as consuming those lame domain slots with better versions of lower level spells.
It also raises the effective spell level of spells, allowing them to bypass globes of invulnurablity and other effects that are dependent on spell level.
It is definitely one of the better metamagic feats as it is.
+1
MA
If a heightened (to 5th) quickened burning hands would take a 9th level slot, and still only have a base DC of 15, then I can't see where this is anything other than a completely and totally worthless feat.
Because without heighten spell, that 1st level quickened burning hands has a base DC of only 11.
Heighten spell has 2 uses. It buffs the save DC for a spell, and it makes the spell count as a higher level spell in all ways (instead of only increasing the spell slot required like other metamagic feats.)
That means a burning hands heightened to a 5th level spell now not only has the same save DC as your other 5th level spells, but it now can also get through a Globe of Invulnerability, as it is now in all ways a 5th level spell.
Heighten Spell is hardly worthless.
Edit: Or basically everything Elusive Jackalope said. Really should of read that post better.
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I house rule Heighten Spell a bit so that it can overcome some natural spell level caps (at 1/2 the rate), but in all honesty, the only use for the normal version I have ever seen outside of some corner case is with Continual Flame to make a 9th level spell Everburning Torch, (mostly so you can flip the finger whenever the DM thinks they are about to blind you with an unexpected Darkness affect).
It does not work well with every spell, but not metamagic feat does. Charm Person is a good candidate though if you are fighting high level humanoids.
The others are correct. Heighten spell increases the base spell level to another level. The other metamagic feats only take up higher level slots.
As an example if you fireball the base spell level is still 3, but the slot is a 7th level slot. You now add heighten to a max of 2 more levels for a 5th level base spell, and a 9th level slot.
If you look at it as adding heighten first, but you still want to quicken it can use heighten to push it to a 5th level base spell taking up a 5th level slot. That give you room for the 4 slots from quicken to come into play, but since quicken only affects the slot level used, and not the actual spell level then you still end up with a 5th level spell taking up a 9th level slot.
What you don't get to do is add a metamagic feat to make it take up a 7th level slot, throw heighten in to now make it a 7th level actual spell. If it did that then almost everyone would take it, and there would be no reason to even say metamagic feats only affect the slot level.
Help me out please, on these points, as I'm not seeing what you're saying, 100%:
...It increases the save DC of spells, making low level spells with interesting, fun, or powerful effects usable into much later levels, which is a boon to spontaneous casters (especially sorcerers) who have a very limited selection of spells known.
Can you give me an example? I mean, why would you want to put shocking grasp into a 9th level slot? What fun, powerful effects are you saying would be worth giving up, say, a meteor swarm, gate, wish, etc., for?
Clerics can make great use of it as well, as there are some less than overwhelming spell levels, and strengthening a lower level spell is great to fill out the slots, as well as consuming those lame domain slots with better versions of lower level spells.
Again, I'd love a few examples, but as a separate issue, I thought that domain slots were locked to the domain spells listed? How exactly are you suggesting swapping domain spells/slots?
It also raises the effective spell level of spells, allowing them to bypass globes of invulnerability and other effects that are dependent on spell level.
I could see some use for this for non-blaster spells like hold person, hold monster, etc., but for blaster spells, you'd be better off just using higher level spells, as they have higher dice caps for overall damage, in addition to the higher levels and DCs.
It is definitely one of the better metamagic feats as it is.
You make some good points. For a game that's designed to end at level 20, I can see a good deal more usefulness than I was, prior.
I still maintain that if Paizo ever releases epic material, or for anyone wanting to go epic, then the entire metamagic cap system would need to be revised. Putting a maximized empowered quickened chain lightning into a 15th level spell slot (min sor/wiz level 30/29, respectively), that never increases beyond a base save DC of 16 is problematic.
Heres an example from a recent game, Color Spray, hightend to 4th level vs. 7th level party... 15 foot cone, save or stunned for 1 round.. Dc was I think 19 (vs a fighter, alch. Using dex mutagine and Sorc).
Stunned is a useful condition at any lebel, not only because they lose there action, but also because they drop what they are holding.
...It increases the save DC of spells, making low level spells with interesting, fun, or powerful effects usable into much later levels, which is a boon to spontaneous casters (especially sorcerers) who have a very limited selection of spells known.
Charm Person is a low level spell meaning it has a low DC. Heighten spell keeps it usable at higher levels. Dominate Person also benefits from it. Blindness/Deafness is another good example. Damage spells are not good to use because of the damage cap. Even if the fail the save vs a damage spell such as shocking grasp the low damage is not worth the slot.
The domain slots are locked into place. He should not have made that quote.
The feat does allow you to bypass the globes, but that is only valid if your GM uses them. It is not a bad idea, but YMMV.
Not all spells are good just because you apply a lot of metamagic to them. Scorching ray is a good spell to metamagic because it is not limited by save if you want to do a lot of damage to someone. Maximize is also generally looked at as being worse than empower.
Instead of maximize I would use persistent spell which forces someone to save twice doubling the chance of them failing a save if you want to use a blaster that forces saves. That are also feats that can make it so it is really hard to save against even at epic levels, but you have to plan for it.
Paizo won't change the base system to support epic because most people don't play into that level. They might introduce epic feats and abilities though if/when they revise the epic level system.
PS: I think there is feat makes the DC's of certain elemental based spells increase. You can stack those with the spell focus(evocation) feats.
Just wanted to point out that there's nothing wrong with using a higher-level DOMAIN SLOT to cast a lower level domain spell, or using such a slot for a metamagic'd domain spell.
Just wanted to point out that there's nothing wrong with using a higher-level DOMAIN SLOT to cast a lower level domain spell, or using such a slot for a metamagic'd domain spell.
Thanks, RD. that is what I was getting at. Heightening a lower level domain spell in a higher level domain slot.
RD, I would allow it, but do you have a rules quote.
@TEJ: I misread your previous quote as something totally different.
A cleric gains one domain spell slot for each level of cleric spell she can cast, from 1st on up. Each day, a cleric can prepare one of the spells from her two domains in that slot.
It says you can prepare spells from one of your domains in your slot. Normally you can prepare lower level spells in a higher slot. Nothing about it being a domain slot prohibits this. You are still using a domain spell in a slot that can only hold domain spells.
@TEJ: I misread your previous quote as something totally different.
No problem. Rereading it I see that I was a bit unclear.
Very good info - thanks, guys.
A cleric gains one domain spell slot for each level of cleric spell she can cast, from 1st on up. Each day, a cleric can prepare one of the spells from her two domains in that slot.It says you can prepare spells from one of your domains in your slot. Normally you can prepare lower level spells in a higher slot. Nothing about it being a domain slot prohibits this. You are still using a domain spell in a slot that can only hold domain spells.
I can agree with that. :)
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Heh, my brain was fried when I used MM as an example.
The way the feat reads in the CRB, it seems to me that it's simply allowing a caster to have an appropriately increased DC for all of their metamagic spells.
If a heightened (to 5th) quickened burning hands would take a 9th level slot, and still only have a base DC of 15, then I can't see where this is anything other than a completely and totally worthless feat.
Question #1) Was this topic ever clarified by a dev? I know the old threads were asking for that, but I didn't see any dev response.
If you wanted to get into epic play, even hodgepodging the rough guidelines that Pathfinder suggests, then you'd have to houserule heightened spell, or otherwise casters would get weaker the further they progressed.
Question #2) If this is worthless, as written, has anyone houseruled it, to work the way I'm wanting it to work, and if so, how has it affected game balance?
Question #3) Especially considering epic shenanigans, wouldn't removing the 9th level metacap also be required?
The others are right about how it works by RAW. However, to answer your #2, I've houseruled it essentially the same way you have: a Fireball is DC13+Mod, an empowered Fireball is DC13+Mod and uses a 5th level slot, a heightened empowered Fireball is DC15+Mod and still only uses a 5th level slot. With this, metamagics become more useful and common in the game. I've never really been a fan, but I like doing it this way. My players seem to like it, too, and I haven't seen it abused or go wrong yet.
That said, YMMV