I'm statting up a Lamia Matriarch Vampire for my game this weekend, and was curious as to whether or not the Lamia's Wisdom drain could be used at the same time as the Vampire's negative energy attack for a double whammy.
Thanks in advance!
I don't know of anything that says that you couldn't as it seems like the vampire's drain is a passive effect. I would think that it would stack, but only as long as she is using a touch attack. I guess it depends on how you want to apply vampirism to her.
Thanks, Jak. I was thinking along the same lines, but it's nice to have someone to bounce the idea off!
Give your Lamia some poisons for their claws for more fun ... :)
Vampire's Energy Drain is not passive effect but it can be used on any natural attack the vampire has. Now it begs a question - is Lamia's touch attack a natural attack (probably not, but I think I'd devise a feat to make it so and replace Lamia Matriarch's Extend Spellfeat with it).
EDIT: Lamia Matriarch Vampire looks interesting... Maybe I send one on my party in a 4-5 levels.
Sure it is a passive effect as it works on any natural attack the vampire has, but only once a round, no activation required.
Edit: Also check under the universal monster rules.
"This attack saps a living opponent’s vital energy and happens automatically when a melee or ranged attack hits. Each successful energy drain bestows one or more negative levels (the creature’s description specifies how many)."
It happens automatically therefore it is passive.
Sure it is a passive effect as it works on any natural attack the vampire has, but only once a round, no activation required.
Edit: Also check under the universal monster rules.
"This attack saps a living opponent’s vital energy and happens automatically when a melee or ranged attack hits. Each successful energy drain bestows one or more negative levels (the creature’s description specifies how many)."
It happens automatically therefore it is passive.
I would disagree that effect that only activates on attack is 'passive', for me to be qualified as 'passive' it would have to work constantly, regardless of the actions taken by the creature - i.e. if it would affect anyone touching the vampire - then it would be passive. Fast healing is passive ability, DR is passive ability, energy drain aura that is not specifically activated would be passive ability, while poisons, bleeds, ability damage/drain and energy drain are not passive abilities for me.
But it is not important in this matter because 'passive' is not a defined game term and is of little importance for that question. The matter is: does the Lamia's touch counts as natural attack and thus is viable carrier for vampire's energy drain (which specificially works only on natural attacks) or not.
The double whammy works because both of them are always on. Now if you had to use an action for both of them then you would have to choose one or the other, unless they were free actions.
Okay so it is a disagreement on terminology.
The answer is yes. Energy drain states that it happens automatically when a melee attack hits, this was probably written this way so that you couldn't use DR to avoid energy drain. Since her medium for draining wisdom is a melee touch attack it should process.
Okay so it is a disagreement on terminology.
The answer is yes. Energy drain states that it happens automatically when a melee attack hits, this was probably written this way so that you couldn't use DR to avoid energy drain. Since her medium for draining wisdom is a melee touch attack it should process.
Looking at general Energy Drain rule yes, you are right. However, in case of vampire there is specific rule:
"Energy Drain (Su): A creature hit by a vampire's slam (or other natural weapon) gains two negative levels. This ability only triggers once per round, regardless of the number of attacks a vampire makes."Taking into account this I would say that the best option is to say that Lamia Matriarch Vampire can make her full attack routine with two scimitairs and slam attack as a secondary attack with slam delivering damage, 2 negative energy levels *and* 1 point of Wisdom drain. Or can make single slam attack as an attack action dealing damage, 2 negative energy levels and 1 point of Wisdom drain. Why 1 point? Because 1d4 Wisdom drain is described as a supernatural ability used with melee touch attack and thus would be used as a standard action. But it also gives an option to drain 1 point of Wisdom with any melee weapon attack. Because it is not limited to manufactured weapons it may be used with natural melee weapon - slam in this case.
I read that specific rule as well and I disagree under the notion that a melee touch attack is a natural attack much like an unarmed strike merely without the associated damage. I believe that is RAI.
I disagree with your interpretation of the function of the vampire's specific rule because under your interpretation a vampire could not choose to touch attack someone and do energy drain. That is illogical.
But to each his own.
I read that specific rule as well and I disagree under the notion that a melee touch attack is a natural attack much like an unarmed strike merely without the associated damage. I believe that is RAI.
I disagree with your interpretation of the function of the vampire's specific rule because under your interpretation a vampire could not choose to touch attack someone and do energy drain. That is illogical.
But to each his own.
Now I see that we have different basic assumptions in this matter - because I disagree with the notion that regular vampire* should be capable of energy draining with just a touch (which, I think, was the standard in AD&D - I remember seeing vampire in 2nd edition monster manual and thinking that AD&D vampires are strange). I prefer to view vampire's energy drain as a side effect of being harmed by vampire and not side effect of being touched by vampire.
*unusual, powerful or exotic vampire strains are another matter - I liked 3rd edition Ravenloft take on vampires with various types of vampires, various power levels and salient abilities allowing for greater customization of vampires
I just find it illogical that the energy drain is a component of physical damage stemming from a vampire as opposed to a vampire's touch since the damage's medium by necessity is touch based. Specifically when it states that it requires the target to be hit by the attack, not when it deals damage.
I can see where you are coming from though. By granting a vampire that possibility you enable it to touch attack the group tank and completely bypass all the delightful effects of that armor.
The vampire's energy drain does not apply on a touch attack, but touch attacks do apply on regular attacks.
This is explained in the magic section of the CRB with regard to touch spells having their affects go off if you hit someone.