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It's something we've been complaining about for a while.
It basically comes down to this:
Simulation vs Gamism
Simulationist way to put loot on chronicle sheets:
The chronicle sheets represent whatever items happen to be present in the adventure.
Gamist way to put loot on chronicle sheets:
The chronicle sheet features interesting items just outside of the expected fame curve of the PCs.
D&D is full of tradeoffs between simulation and gamism.
I think the chronicle sheet items list bothers so many people because the PFS wealth rules are very gamist by nature, but there's this one misplaced piece of simulation in them.
Well, starting with the current season, it is a lot harder to earn zero Fame, since you get one point just for completing the main mission. But even if you only earn your one point per scenario, you will have 9 points on hitting 4th level, which gives you a buying limit of 1500 gold.
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It's something we've been complaining about for a while.It's not about simulationism vs. gamism.
The Chronicles must include all items which are not always available because it is possible for a character to earn zero Fame.
-Matt
Matt, I think you missed my point completely.
They don't include all items which are not always available.
They currently include all items that existed in the adventure which are not always available.
This is simulationist.
What I'm saying is: instead of giving level 7 PCs access to a cloak of resistance +1 because some guard in the adventure was wearing it, the sheet could give something like a Cloak of the manta ray (7,200) or a Cloak of Protection + 1 (3,000gp). While this solution is less "realistic" it would make for more useful chronicle sheets.
This is gamist.
Paizo has chosen the simulationist method. I don't think it's something they are likely to change, but I thought I had some insight on why it bothers people.
Summary:
The way items show up in a chronicle sheet is a piece of simulation in a predominately gamist mechanic. This, I think reasonably, bothers some people.
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I still don't understand the complaint. A level 3 PC playing a tier 4-5 adventure who failed a couple of faction missions or played modules with lower max fame than PFS scenarios could realistically have a max 1500 gp spending limit. Giving them access to 2000 gp items through the chronicle sheet makes sense.
Personally, I think any item that's not "always available" should be on the chronicle sheet. That way, PCs who are playing up or have lower fame than average for their level for whatever reason can get those items. Why would anyone have a complaint about that?
Wands and scrolls at higher than minimum caster level can only be purchased from a chronicle sheet, as well as less than 50 pieces of magical ammunition.
"Always available" stuff, yeah, I can see the arguement for that. But not every chronicle sheet is the same.
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I think the complaint is that rarely does an item appear on a chronicle that the character cannot already buy. There is the occasional special item (like a wand with less than max charges) or limited items (doses of poison, special ammunition, etc.) but these are the exceptions rather than the rule.
It is rare to find items on a chronicle that a character does not already have access.
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A good example is the cloak of protection. These things are everywhere, like there's a place churning these things out below cost :P
I've never even heard of such an item. Must not be as common as you think. ;)
As other people have already said, the lower cost gear is listed because it is the stuff from the scenario that isnt on the 'always available' list. Better to be careful and list it all for the people who play up or have low fame than to assume that people will have enough fame by that point and not list it, therefore possibly shorting the person access.
Just cause it isnt useful to you doesnt mean it's not useful to someone else.
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There are also some sheets that include level 1 wands with 50 charges for 750g. Why include these? And ones with level 1 scrolls. There's, from a rules perspective, no need to have them listed but they are. Whenever I encounter such items on a sheet I rationalize it to my pcs as the wand that the BBEG or whoever was using - it looks cooler, has some insignia or the like.
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There are also some sheets that include level 1 wands with 50 charges for 750g. Why include these? And ones with level 1 scrolls. There's, from a rules perspective, no need to have them listed but they are. Whenever I encounter such items on a sheet I rationalize it to my pcs as the wand that the BBEG or whoever was using - it looks cooler, has some insignia or the like.
I can't speak to the 1st-level scrolls, but the wands are there because they're not on the Always Available list.
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There are also some sheets that include level 1 wands with 50 charges for 750g. Why include these? And ones with level 1 scrolls. There's, from a rules perspective, no need to have them listed but they are. Whenever I encounter such items on a sheet I rationalize it to my pcs as the wand that the BBEG or whoever was using - it looks cooler, has some insignia or the like.I can't speak to the 1st-level scrolls, but the wands are there because they're not on the Always Available list.
Fair enough. That was more in mention to the original question of "why include them on mod level sheets" though.
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Venture-Captain, Michigan—Mt. Pleasant
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Fair enough. That was more in mention to the original question of "why include them on mod level sheets" though.There are also some sheets that include level 1 wands with 50 charges for 750g. Why include these? And ones with level 1 scrolls. There's, from a rules perspective, no need to have them listed but they are. Whenever I encounter such items on a sheet I rationalize it to my pcs as the wand that the BBEG or whoever was using - it looks cooler, has some insignia or the like.I can't speak to the 1st-level scrolls, but the wands are there because they're not on the Always Available list.
Because its still being found on the adventure. What does it really matter if its purchasable easily after a couple of scenarios, that doesn't mean it wasn't found during the mission. Sure, feather tokens (for example) can be cheap, that doesn't mean they should just leave it off the chronicle if one was in the scenario.
I for one would prefer to see the always available items on the chronicles as well. They were found during the scenario, they should be on the chronicle.
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I think some interesting ideas have been raised but unless/until some changes in PFS come around.. the way the chronicle loot and spending ceiling interact is just going to be one of the less-than-tidy aspects of PFS.
Maybe in the future GM rewards or Boons might become available that allow you to purchase items off a chronicle at some sort of discount. Barring that, there's little practical reason to have loot on a chronicle at all beyond the first few levels. Aside from the mentioned <50 charge wands, scrolls of spells above min caster level, etc... but those are rarely (in my experience) available anyhow.
For me, it seems the only real value to chronicle loot is sentimental.. or a memory aid. The chronicle itself is an abstract representation of your Pathfinder's own research/exploration notes. The loot listed reminds you the player of the opposition you faced during that adventure. Well, that's all it does for me, anyway :) For that purpose, of course, a chronicle could definately be better presented.
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Table 5-3 of the Field Guide download.
One example exceprt:
At 13 fame your ceiling is 3,000 gold.
Assuming 1.5 fame per adventure, as a level 4 you had access to nearly anything you're finding on your sheet sheet anway. If you're closer to the 2.0 fame per adventure, you can potentially buy anything you're finding anyway even earlier.
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Where's the fame to buying limit table?
In the Guide to Organized Play.
And I completely disagree with deusvult about eliminating loot from the chronicle sheet. My group routinely plays adventures where max fame isn't available (modules worth 4 fame and 3 xp, for instance) and occasionally fail faction missions. So none of us are anywhere near 2 fame per xp, and we routinely find things on the chronicles to buy that we couldn't afford without it being there.
As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I'm a big believer in putting anything on the chronicle that isn't "always available".
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And I completely disagree with deusvult about eliminating loot from the chronicle sheet.
Hey now I never said that at all.
Even if you get 2.0 fame per adventure, magic weapons found will sometimes be just out of the ceiling.
But, those times, and the odd numbered charges on wands and odd level scrolls are just few and far between. As in, the vast majority of the time chronicle loot is below the ceiling and serves no practical purpose other than 'fluff/sentimental/gee-wiz look what we woulda got if we played up' purposes.
I agree with you that they should put MORE loot in that isn't always available. But as the system works now, that's a rather contrived chore under existing rules. For every oddly charged wand, they have to have that wand statted that way in the adventure. It seems they SHOULD be able to have caster NPC/opposition make oddly-leveled scrolls WAY more often than they do, however.
And that's not even going into the poor druids of PFS almost never getting to upgrade beyond hide armor...
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Table 5-3 of the Field Guide download.
One example exceprt:
At 13 fame your ceiling is 3,000 gold.
Assuming 1.5 fame per adventure, as a level 4 you had access to nearly anything you're finding on your sheet sheet anway. If you're closer to the 2.0 fame per adventure, you can potentially buy anything you're finding anyway even earlier.
Excelent! thank you.
So let me see if I'm understanding these rules right. Having completed my first adventure (...well, having survived it anyway) my allowable purchases expands from whats allowed on the "Always Available Items" to be Anything on the "Always Available Items" AND any items that were found in the adventure AND the 500 GP limit of things i can buy from my faction?
So i could theoretically buy
a cloak of resistance +2 from the mid tier reward because the party played up, even though its over the faction limit and not on the always available list.
a +1 cold iron morningstar that was not on the adventure and is over the faction limit but is covered by the "always available section",
a 150 gp scroll of "Cure moderate wounds" because its under the 500 gp limit for my faction, even though it wasn't on the mission and isn't on the always available list.
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You're very close, and completely understand it, and would be right if there wasn't an error in 5-3: Fame and Item Purchases.
Ignore the "or less" next to the 4.
So you've identified the 3 ways to gain access to items:
1: Be on a chronicle sheet.
2: Be always available.
3" Be within your fame limit.
PS. Welcome to PFS!
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If the cloak is on the list of items in the sub-tier you played at or below, yes.
For the morningstar, yes.
The scroll of Cure Moderate Wounds, no. There is a typo in the chart. It should read:
Table 5–3: Fame and Item Purchases
Fame Score Maximum Item Cost
00-04 Always Available only
05-08 500 gp
09-12 1,500 gp
13-17 3,000 gp
18-21 5,250 gp
22-26 8,000 gp
27-30 11,750 gp
31-35 16,500 gp
36-39 23,000 gp
40-44 31,000 gp
45-48 41,000 gp
49-53 54,000 gp
54-57 70,000 gp
58-62 92,500 gp
63-66 120,000 gp
67 or more 157,500 gp
Now, if only I knew how to format it "purty"
Callarek, you have it almost right. It is 4-8 Fame that has the 500 gold limit and less than 4 Fame that is limited to Always Available or on a Chronicle. I would have to find the exact posts, but Mark or Mike has stated this in just about every thread that has come up about this error in the chart.
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I think some interesting ideas have been raised but unless/until some changes in PFS come around.. the way the chronicle loot and spending ceiling interact is just going to be one of the less-than-tidy aspects of PFS.
Maybe in the future GM rewards or Boons might become available that allow you to purchase items off a chronicle at some sort of discount. Barring that, there's little practical reason to have loot on a chronicle at all beyond the first few levels. Aside from the mentioned <50 charge wands, scrolls of spells above min caster level, etc... but those are rarely (in my experience) available anyhow.
For me, it seems the only real value to chronicle loot is sentimental.. or a memory aid. The chronicle itself is an abstract representation of your Pathfinder's own research/exploration notes. The loot listed reminds you the player of the opposition you faced during that adventure. Well, that's all it does for me, anyway :) For that purpose, of course, a chronicle could definately be better presented.
This is pone of the changes we'd like to se in PFS. I'm trying to get support for an online PFS Meeting with the bigwigs to air all our requests and perhaps even implement some.
Post in support of the online meeting format so many can participate!
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Callarek, you have it almost right. It is 4-8 Fame that has the 500 gold limit and less than 4 Fame that is limited to Always Available or on a Chronicle. I would have to find the exact posts, but Mark or Mike has stated this in just about every thread that has come up about this error in the chart.
Re: Fame and item purchases table
The first line of this table will be changed to "5 -> 500 gp" in the next update to the document, which is awaiting a few art fixes and editing at the moment. This should clarify that the Fame column represents a series of thresholds unlocking different tiers of items based on market price.
Well, I was following this posting from Mark Moreland, so 5-8 it is.
I always figured 5 was a typo, since in version 3 of the Guide, 4 is the minimum for 500 gp purchases.