Goblin Squad Member
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are you confirming that fast travel, as of now, is forseen to be included into this game
Yes. Lots more to come on Fast Travel in future blog posts.
will we be able to craft or build a place that can accept Soulbinding?
Yes.
Will there be some way to "up" the security level of a sector with the actions of the players?
I don't know.
will the bounty be a fixed amount of cash or will the player get to choose
The victim sets the bounty price.
there should be a way for the player that created the bounty to call it off
Absolutely. A bounty can be cleared at any time by the person who set it.
You said as a reply to a question that very good and/or important items will be somehow protected from destruction from looting... does that mean they,ll almost always get looted or there will be a way to get them back if they aren't looted?
The intention is that certain very important items will be restored to you when you reanimate - they won't be left in the husk.
Such items will be few and far between. They won't be random commodities.
If a player in a party murders your character, can you put bounties against all of the party member or just the one who deal damage?
If a member of a party commits a crime, the leader of the party will be informed and given a countdown timer to boot that party member. If the party member is not booted, the other members of the party will be given a countdown timer to quit the party. If you choose to stay in a party after the leader has decided to let a criminal stay, you'll be considered a criminal too.
Ride with the bad guys, die like the bad guys.
So this is a bit of a tangent, but related to PvP. Will the only way to protect yourself from PvP be to be bigger, badder, stronger (or have a group of allies that in total is bigger, badder, stronger) than potential attackers/murderers/bandits?
{checking my notes}
Nope, never have we said that.
I think you could successfully compete head to head with WoW
EA is spending more than $300 million to attempt to do this. So far, they're not succeeding (from what I can see).
Several other studios have raised and spent budgets in the $100 million range to try and do this, and have not succeeded.
If you think Pathfinder is a bigger brand, and by extension could compete simply on brand equity, with Conan, Warhammer Fantasy and Lord of the Rings, I'll tell you that I simply don't agree.
The reality is that these kinds of games are not going to be financed anymore. The last of the wave of WoW-killers is due to ship this year, and after they do (Tera, Project Copernicus and Guildwars 2), I seriously doubt we'll see any AAA fantasy themepark games that go into development with adequate budgets to achieve their stated goals.
After EA, Turbine, Funcom, Trion Worlds, NCSoft, 38 Studios, Sony, and all the rest have been down this path over and over and over and have failed to achieve their goals (even if they did achieve profitable successful businesses), why should we attempt it when there's low-hanging fruit available for an underserved market in a space with virtually zero competition?
RyanD
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I have no idea how you will implement fast travel in a manner that doesn't defeat the advantages of having a sprawling world. I am concerned that some people will be able to participate indirectly in crime without being appropriately tagged, but that's an implementation issue and each workaround can be patched with software or wetware changes without altering the philosophy behind the decision.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Not Mr Dancey, but consider to concept Fast Travel only works on roads that exist, or that Players have Built.
While selecting the 'Fast Travel' option, your character moves at 2x or even 3x their normal speed, but only along those roads. Which means PvPers looking to gank need only find (or for the more devious, build) sections of Roads where there is cover, in which they can hide and wait for passing merchants or adventurers to assault.
This makes travelling off the Roads a little bit more worth-while, as you've less chance of hostile Player-Killers camping choke-points, at the risk of more interaction with potentially hostile NPCs.
Maybe dirt road/track only grants a 50% increase when using Fast Travel, with increases to the 'quality' going from a split-log Road (logs split into half and then partially sunk into the ground to provide a level, if very rough and short-term, path, Stone-paved Road (paved with stones, durable but not particularly smooth) and then finally Cobble-Stone Road (very expensive, relatively smooth, very durable).
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would like to see certain items be flagged as ineligible for fast travel.
In general, I'm fine with being able to instantly travel to most places with everything on my person and in my inventory, but I would prefer that transport vehicles, if they exist, are not allowed to fast-travel, and I would think there would be some items that are significant enough that, even if they are something you can carry in your inventory, they should prohibit you from fast-travel, to assure you have every opportunity to be relieved of them :)
When I moved down to the Rio Grande Valley, about 15 miles from Mexico, I really had to psyche myself into embracing the fact that it was going to be hot... really hot. Over the last several summers, I've noticed that most of the people around me are always complaining of the heat, but I've really handled it well, because of that decision to embrace it. Now that I've decided to embrace the idea that PFO will actually be encouraging other players to kill me, I'm finding it somewhat liberating.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I.E. you don't RAID/Grind for days to aquire your +57 Sword of Uberness that makes you 3 character levels better in combat.
Exactly. While there may be a few "items of legend", you'll be no more attached to your gear than most modern soldiers are to theirs. Sure, this may be my rife, but there are in fact many just like it and when this one breaks or gets lost, I'll get a new one functionally identical to it. Ditto to my helmet and flak jacket.
Now daddy's old sawed off 20 gauge that he carried through the Nam? Well, that's a whole 'nother matter....
{About assassins} Is there any info you can/are willing to provide on this front
No.
The obvious emergent behavior is that people won't carry inventory. But how does this affect the looting issue? You kill someone, they die, you loot them, you get nothing.
I suspect that you won't see a lot of bandit on bandit violence. You will see people who pray on bandits (post looting) though. On the other hand you'll see lots of folks carrying inventory. Most of the time, in most of the places they go, they won't be under threat. The occasional loss gets factored into their costs to do whatever it is they're doing. As they progress as characters they become more and more capable of defending themselves, running away, avoiding the fight, calling in help, etc.
Low-skilled PCs will tend to stay in fairly safe areas, moderately skilled PCs will venture into the rougher neighborhoods.
What are they carrying? They're carrying stuff from market to market for arbitrage. They're carrying stuff they need to survive in adventures against monstrous creatures. They're carrying the spoils of their recent victories. They're carrying resources they've just harvested.
By the way, EVE Online works exactly like this, so I'm not just making this up.
Yes, inexperienced new players do often decide "it won't happen to them", and they lose virtually all their wealth because they incautiously invested it into one ship and associated gear, then went somewhere over their heads, didn't pay attention to the warnings that may have saved them, and paid the price. And yes, that sucks. On the other hand, its not the end of the world. You can bootstrap yourself reasonably quickly, and sometimes you have to be burned before you learn to keep your damn hand out of the fire.
In themepark games where there's no persistence and little risk, players develop the habit of wandering around with a king's ransom draped all over their bodies ostentatiously. In sandbox games where persistence matters and risk is everywhere, you learn to only invest a fraction of your wealth in the stuff you carry at any given time, so that you can "re-outfit" without breaking your bank if the worst case scenario plays out.
Over time you get better at figuring out what to gear up with, where to go, how to go about your business, what kinds of danger signs to look for, how to run, how to call for help, and how to shrug and suck it up when you take a loss.
At what point is the "Criminal" flag raised?
* The character attacked another character while no War existed between the two characters and the victim was not a Criminal
(If you are attacked, you are free to retaliate to the best of your (or your party or larger social organization's abilities)).
* The character was in a Party after a Party member became a Criminal
* The character healed or buffed a Criminal, or debuffed you, or healed or buffed an NPC opponent (i.e. a monstrous creature)
* The character attacked an NPC Marshal
(There are others but these are the things that relate to the blogs we've already posted)
The severity of your criminal act will affect the length of the time you will be flagged as a criminal. Repeat offenses while already flagged will have additive effects. It is entirely possible that one may become so notorious that they are permanently flagged as a criminal.
The effects of being flagged as a criminal are:
* If the Region is Controlled by a lawful, neutral or good NPC Faction, NPC Marshals will be dispatched to kill the Criminal
* The Criminal can be killed by anyone without any penalty
* The Criminal will display a visual indication of Criminal status
* NPCs may attack the Criminal on sight
* Lawful and neutral NPCs won't offer Quests to the Criminal
* Lawful and neutral Settlements will be closed to the Criminal
* Criminals cannot use Fast Travel
Somewhat related - could we have nonlethal duels in "safe" zones to settle disputes?
Highly unlikely.
Somewhat related - could we have nonlethal duels in "safe" zones to settle disputes?Highly unlikely.
Why is that?
It doesn't seem "Technically" unobtainable being that most MMO's have Dueling systems. It would be a good RP tool and it would also allow players to train and test their mettle vs their allies before venturing into the wild. Personally, I'd love to see a non-lethal combat system put in place for things like bar brawls as well.
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Definately agree. Non-lethal should be allowed(only if both or all participants agree to the dual) of course having use for the sap might be nice too.
Non-lethelly attack a player, rob him(extra inventory is not lost like if dead) and penelty is less then having killed the victim.
Knock out, ATKer low penelty low reward VIC non-looted inventory remains
Kill, ATKer high penelty high reward VIC non-looted inventory disappears( though I still think this is too far)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Definately agree. Non-lethal should be allowed(only if both or all participants agree to the dual) of course having use for the sap might be nice too.
Non-lethelly attack a player, rob him(extra inventory is not lost like if dead) and penelty is less then having killed the victim.
Knock out, ATKer low penelty low reward VIC non-looted inventory remains
Kill, ATKer high penelty high reward VIC non-looted inventory disappears( though I still think this is too far)
While I can see the dueling as a nice feature, I guess now that I think of it, it is a bit of an immersion breaker the way it usually is input into games. Particularly when you do think about the fact that it generally involves dueling normally with the same sharp deadly weapons you use for everything else. I actually do get kind of annoyed seeing 2 people running around swinging their swords at eachother in the middle of the auction houses, paths, zeplin stations etc... in WoW.
That being said I wouldn't mind seeing a specific ring/arena type area with it's own specialty non-lethal weapons for this very purpose. Possibly one constructable as a decore/entertainment type building. Personally I would like to see buildings/structures for town that aren't for craft/defense etc... but actually for entertainment/moral that may have bonuses to NPCs entering (IE taverns, and an arena for fun).
Maybe even other possible events for the arena, such as animal tamers etc... can release their pets onto combatants, creating a bullfight type of show. (or in an evil enough village a lions vs unarmed slaves match).
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Goblin Squad Member
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thanks for blog-worthy content.
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What are they carrying? They're carrying stuff from market to market for arbitrage. They're carrying stuff they need to survive in adventures against monstrous creatures. They're carrying the spoils of their recent victories. They're carrying resources they've just harvested.
By the way, EVE Online works exactly like this, so I'm not just making this up.
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how will fast-travel interact with transportation? in EVE, market arbitrage is possible because it takes time to move goods from market to market (freighters being notoriously slow and sluggish). will goods carried by character or there will be horses, wagons or caravans for extra capacity?
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Goblin Squad Member
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That being said I wouldn't mind seeing a specific ring/arena type area with it's own specialty non-lethal weapons for this very purpose. Possibly one constructable as a decore/entertainment type building. Personally I would like to see buildings/structures for town that aren't for craft/defense etc... but actually for entertainment/moral that may have bonuses to NPCs entering (IE taverns, and an arena for fun).
Agreed. You can duel in tabletop Pathfinder, why not PFO? I agree that having a "duel-anywhere" option, like most MMO's is silly, and sets up all kinds of ganking hilarity. (Duel someone, bring him down to low health, then have your criminal buddy unstealth and gank the victim). But a dueling arena for nonlethal duels would be nice... and maybe a gladiator arena for the lethal ones. Plus, bar brawls would be awesome, but I have no idea how those should be handled, nor do I think they should be commonplace.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ok, so if corpse looting is instantaneous, then how do the marshals ever catch anyone if they have to travel to the scene of the murder? The murderer will instantaneously loot the corpse and then, knowing marshals are on the way, run the hell away (or ride, fly, teleport, etc.) Unless the marshalls are all quicklings, or their freeze in place power has a range of 100 miles, and freezes the criminals before they show up, then I'm not seeing how they're an effective deterent at all unless you're in the city and they show up pretty much instantly.
Corpse looting can be instantaneous, but killing isn't. The Marshals spawn when the attack being, not when you are killed.
The crime is attacking you.
I want to make the expected values even less. Have a good chance of catching four or five people in an hour, versus having a very small chance of catching two people working together. Any group organized enough to find and beat us is strong and persistent enough to cut a deal with.
From my EVE experience most the deep wilderness PvPers will not make any deal. They will be people that like to PvP. And they will see actual combat rarely. So most of them will not lose a chance of a meaningful combat for a few gold pieces. You will be either part of their group or a target.
Almost certainly it would be easier to make a deal wet groups in the "medium range wilderness" area, where they see enough traffic to satisfy their need for PvP and so they will be more willing to strike a deal and lose a potential target.|
Goblin Squad Member
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I would really like to have a discussion on the pros and cons of having a system whereby I can Challenge a player to leave the immediate vicinity (maybe even the hex) and if they don't, I could kill them without being flagged a murderer. Are there drawbacks to this that I'm not seeing?
It all depend on under which conditions and in what areas a challenge could be issued.
I see it as acceptable only if you could issue it only in a area you somewhat claim.You see this mechanic as a way to remove people trying to grief you in a way that is not acknowledged by the system as illegal, I see it the "perfect" instrument to grief people without consequences.
"You are in the middle of the safe town but I Challenge you to leave the town. If you don't leave I am free to kil you without consequences."
Sorry, it seem a great way to beak any behaviour control mechanics.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Also, along those lines, what about disguises? If you could disguise yourself to appear either more powerful than you are, or poorer than you are, you might simply not appear to be worth attacking. What kind of information will you have about other PCs in the area/in your line of sight? Will you automatically see them and their names? What about armor and weapons, or "level badges" to get a sense of their power? I think this is a pretty significant piece to determining if you want to take the risk of attacking someone for their stuff.Disguise I really do hope they actually make disguise work that way, if you could forge membership of an enemy guild etc... I think that would create a whole new class of spies, that would make much better gameplay than just creating an alt to join enemy guild. Odds are they should immediately be able to know if you aren't really a member of their own guild (as there will almost certainly be a members list/guild chat), but if you spoof their allies, or their preffered bounty hunter/merchant alliance you may be able to pull a fast one on them.
I really hope we will not see disguise work that way. We are limited to what the server say us. If the server start giving false informations it will become impossible to trust anyyone. EVE has already a high level of paranoia when dealing with other players, we don't need something even stronger.
If the server were to give our PC both the real information and the fake ones, so that our program, PC side, will be the one to decide what to display to us, based on our skills, we will have, again, security issues where people cracking the program and cheating will get big advantages against players not cheating.
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If the server were to give our PC both the real information and the fake ones, so that our program, PC side, will be the one to decide what to display to us, based on our skills, we will have, again, security issues where people cracking the program and cheating will get big advantages against players not cheating.
If this is the method used then the consequenses would be no different then if the character had a high enough skill to see through the diguise. Advantages yes, but not big ones as any spy would be prepared for the one who will notice.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Having high skills to see though a disguise will require:
- time spent in training those skills instead of other skills;
- getting the appropriate badges to activate the skill;
- using them;
- being successful at using them.
Cheating would require to cheat.
I fail to see how you can think there isn't a big difference.
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Cheating is cheating, I fail to see how that should be the base of an argument for in game content.
In any case, I was simply stating that the spy would hardly be able to tell for sure that the vic was cheating. The big difference affects the cheater more then anyone else, as opposed to cheating on dps which directly affects anyone he fights.
If one is going to cheat wouldn't they do something more then detect the rare spy?
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The simple solution is to have the server send one persona, the being portrayed, and a dc. The other pc comp then runs a skill check, if it wins then it sends the roll to server which then sends the true persona, or certain parts anyway. Of course, this is done everytime regardless of any disguise. And this just eats server time.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Here is the compromise I would accept:You die. Someone loots your corpse, receiving a random selection of its inventory. The rest stays there until you retrieve it.
I'm still reading through the thread, but this is exactly what I was thinking as I read the article. Reward the killer/looter with an item I'm carrying, sure, but leave the rest alone. Or make it so my husk can be looted for an item once every 5 minutes or so if I stay logged in.
Total destruction of your inventory becomes a major problem given the nature of the internet and computers. I can't count the number of times I've been disconnected from WoW due to my internet dropping, or my computer freezing, or just WoW crashing. A decent number of those times, I've logged back in dead, because some monster got beat on me while I just stood there. Sometimes it's taken me 15-20 minutes to get back in. Occasionally, I've given up for the day and just left my corpse where it was until the next day. That's a lot of time for something or someone to kill me, then someone to come by, loot my corpse, and destroy everything I'm carrying. Even if I have friends standing right there, if my ISP is having issues, or I lose power, or my computer bursts into flames, I'm not coming back for my corpse. They're not going to wait around all night waiting for me. Eventually either they'll loot it in hopes of saving something for me, or they'll leave and someone else will come by and loot it. Either way, I've lost all my (carried) stuff despite making all the "safe" choices.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Here is the compromise I would accept:You die. Someone loots your corpse, receiving a random selection of its inventory. The rest stays there until you retrieve it.
I'm still reading through the thread, but this is exactly what I was thinking as I read the article. Reward the killer/looter with an item I'm carrying, sure, but leave the rest alone. Or make it so my husk can be looted for an item once every 5 minutes or so if I stay logged in.
Total destruction of your inventory becomes a major problem given the nature of the internet and computers. I can't count the number of times I've been disconnected from WoW due to my internet dropping, or my computer freezing, or just WoW crashing. A decent number of those times, I've logged back in dead, because some monster got beat on me while I just stood there. Sometimes it's taken me 15-20 minutes to get back in. Occasionally, I've given up for the day and just left my corpse where it was until the next day. That's a lot of time for something or someone to kill me, then someone to come by, loot my corpse, and destroy everything I'm carrying. Even if I have friends standing right there, if my ISP is having issues, or I lose power, or my computer bursts into flames, I'm not coming back for my corpse. They're not going to wait around all night waiting for me. Eventually either they'll loot it in hopes of saving something for me, or they'll leave and someone else will come by and loot it. Either way, I've lost all my (carried) stuff despite making all the "safe" choices.
Well again you won't be carrying more then necessary, if you have serious regular connection problems there are still non-ideal but fully functional options, (have your friends with stable connections carry loot for you and give it back when you are back in safe harbor). No matter how you do it a game will always leave you in a bad situation when you DC, just like even WoW has consequences (Possible TPK for your team, possibility team mates won't want to work with you in the future etc...). As much as I hate to say it, a game can't cater to the lowest common denominator always, even when it isn't really in your control for why you would be the lowest common denominator.
The idea is for the game to have consequences, and well IMO you can't eliminate them just because some people have poor connections.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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You won't be carrying everything you own, or even a significant portion. You will be carrying what you need to use at the moment. Certain "very important items" will be secure; anything else falls into the category of "things that shouldn't be secure if you go LD." Sorry, but if you drop carrier, you take certain penalties.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm still reading through the thread, but this is exactly what I was thinking as I read the article. Reward the killer/looter with an item I'm carrying, sure, but leave the rest alone. Or make it so my husk can be looted for an item once every 5 minutes or so if I stay logged in.
Having read through the whole thread, I'm less against this than I was at first. I still don't like it, but I'm willing to accept it. I also think most people won't carry anything at all, if they can avoid it (as has been previously said), which might have consequences on the intended repercussions of having a looting system in the first place.
One possibility I see is that if you loot an item from a husk, than for X length of time after, anyone who kills you gains your stolen loot PLUS the standard random item of yours. So I can go kill my killer and get something can back, even if it's not all of my stuff.
I still think the unexpected computer/network issue will be a problem, though. I'd suggest some sort of protection for disconnected players, but the trick is to provide that protection without providing that protection to people who are deliberately logging out / force-quitting to avoid being looted. I don't have any ideas how that would be implemented, though.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think characters will actually be carrying quite a bit normally. Either the stuff they need to be effective killing monsters, or the stuff they acquired from that killing, or the stuff they got from harvesting, or the stuff they got from killing another player, or the stuff they're trying to transport to the next town for profit.
I think the only characters who will actually minimize their inventory will be the bandits, and the bandit-hunters.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I still think the unexpected computer/network issue will be a problem, though. I'd suggest some sort of protection for disconnected players, but the trick is to provide that protection without providing that protection to people who are deliberately logging out / force-quitting to avoid being looted. I don't have any ideas how that would be implemented, though.
The only way this would be possible is to have a webcam on the player and another human being watching the webcam, and even then the player will find a way to trick the watcher into thinking it was a legitimate disconnect even though the player really just forced the disconnect to avoid the penalty of losing a fight.
In other words... not possible.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It would be an interesting dynamic...
If characters (with your permission) could DRAG your corpse to a "safer" location....
If they could GUARD it from being looted (i.e. a looter can't loot a corpse with someone succesfully guarding it)... or put the act of looting on an interruptable timer, with an attack on the looter interrupting the looting action before it can complete...
If there were some specific areas in the game where corpses were non-lootable (temples, havens, sanctuaries, etc).
If certain types of mobs would engage in looting fallen characters themselves, if no one was present after a certain amount of time....and some of the looted gear was recoverable from them.
Essentialy, it would be nice to see a mechanic whereby group members, even if they didn't have the requisite abilities to raise the fallen party member on the spot had some method of assisting that member in recovering thier gear.
I played another MMO with similar types of mechanics in play...and organizing "rescue parties" for fallen adventurers was a major part of the fun.
Also you want to have some mechanism to deal with the Ninja/Suicide Looter.... i.e. no one should be able to rush in and get off a quick "loot" click in order to destroy another characters inventory if 20 of thier freinds are standing around trying to protect the corspse.
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This is why I think the inventory should not be destroyed. It is an immersion breaker for one and two you could easily say that that it takes a second or so to loot and then the rest of the inventory can be looted or picked up by other players friendly or not. Whatevers left is there for the when they return. If inventory is destroyed solo players or tpks would result in plyers not bothhering to go back to corse at all.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Haven't read all of this thread yet so apologies if someone else has suggested this.
How about crafting "secret"pockets into your armour or robes, that give you unlootable inventory slots, say 4 or 5 (a small amount anyway). That way you can at least carry some unequipped items that are safe. Your latest treasure or potions/wands etc.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If characters (with your permission) could DRAG your corpse to a "safer" location...
If they could GUARD it from being looted...
Very solid ideas. I remember many, many corpse runs in EQ, and being pranked by friends who would drag my corpse into really interesting places :)
If inventory is destroyed solo players or tpks would result in plyers not bothhering to go back to corse at all.
You do realize that inventory is only destroyed if it's looted by someone else, right?
If you loot your own corpse, you get all the stuff back.
How about crafting "secret"pockets into your armour or robes, that give you unlootable inventory slots...
Not a bad idea, but they should only give a chance that the looter wouldn't see the gear. It shouldn't be guaranteed.
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If inventory is destroyed solo players or tpks would result in plyers not bothhering to go back to corse at all.You do realize that inventory is only destroyed if it's looted by someone else, right?
If you loot your own corpse, you get all the stuff back.
How about crafting "secret"pockets into your armour or robes, that give you unlootable inventory slots...Not a bad idea, but they should only give a chance that the looter wouldn't see the gear. It shouldn't be guaranteed.
First yes I do realize this so in the wilds I might, if killed by NPCs but with players, unless you know them and know they will leave you be...
Yep secret pockets should have a find dc based on the skill of the tailor which then the looter rolls a spot check and if he fails then he never knew he missed something.
However, neg lvls would be a better death penelty then inventory loss in my opinion.
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Goblin Squad Member
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However, neg lvls would be a better death penelty then inventory loss in my opinion.
Considering the dynamics of PFO, where it will take real time to gain "levels", and the game will be encouraging other players to kill you frequently, I have to disagree.
I would much rather lose all of my unequipped inventory than lose any amount of real-time-based skill learning.
Especially since I can clear my inventory and die repeatedly in a war and suffer only minor negatives, if I suffer any at all.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If characters (with your permission) could DRAG your corpse to a "safer" location...
If they could GUARD it from being looted...
Very solid ideas. I remember many, many corpse runs in EQ, and being pranked by friends who would drag my corpse into really interesting places :)
I'll second these ideas.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The fact that you could suffer no cosequences fighting in a war is exactly why I don't like it. I mention it more indepth multiclassing, though don't ask me how we got there from multiclassing.
There ARE consequences for him being killed in a War...it's just the consequences to his characters INDIVIDUAL Abilities/Power aren't all that significant.
The consequences are to the GROUP/FACTION he is fighting for realizing the goals they want to achieve in the conflict. If he is put out of action for any amount of time, then his Group/Faction is deprived the benefit of his combat abilities for however long he is out of action.
Also, presumably, his GROUP/FACTION is going to be expending SOME resources to get him back into action quickly (rather then having him "hoof it" from wherever he might be soul-bound) even if that only translates to manna.
Finaly I expect he will be placing himself and/or his group at a disadvantage if he really is entering combat with an empty inventory (i.e. nothing to lose).
It's probably the case there are some things you may want to carry in your inventory if you want to be fighting at OPTIMAL efficiency over an EXTENDED period of time (potions, spell components, extra ammo, spare weapons, bandages, etc).
His choosing not to carry them (for fear of loss) would be nearly as good to the opposition as being able to loot them from his corpse...as they are effectively causing his side to fight at less then peak combat efficiency.
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Now think about me going to fight on my own against someone else. Oh dear he won guess ill go somewhere else cause I don't have to worry about it. The point is they are trying to make death hurt but to anyone with half a brain just acts accordingly and viola, not much to really hurt me. I could go out to kill bears and get killed 3 times in same day and not worry about. Minor loss of mats and potions, whoopeedoo.(very sarcastic-like)
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Goblin Squad Member
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There ARE consequences...
Exactly. There don't need to be major consequences to the character himself, because there are almost certainly going to be significant consequences to his attempts to dominate the environment, which is one of the four key theaters of play that Ryan keeps mentioning.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Now think about me going to fight on my own against someone else. Oh dear he won guess ill go somewhere else cause I don't have to worry about it. The point is they are trying to make death hurt but to anyone with half a brain just acts accordingly and viola, not much to really hurt me. I could go out to kill bears and get killed 3 times in same day and not worry about. Minor loss of mats and potions, whoopeedoo.(very sarcastic-like)
Well, now think about being part of a guild that's trying to hold on to a castle they've built and they're asking all their members to stand and fight to help them keep it safe from an attacking guild. If you're going to lose a week of real-time skill gain, or more, by taking part in that battle, are you going to stick around?
What happens if they attack again the next night? Are you seriously suggesting that a character potentially lose months of skill-gain because they've died a bunch of times helping their guild defend their castle?
If the game worked that way, there would never be any fights. Whichever side looked like they were going to lose would simply leave the battlefield.
No thanks.
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That's called cowerdice for one and two if you're part of a large group like a guild then you're buddies will rez you which bypasses some or all of those losses.
Also what about the atkrs? They'll only risk it if there is something worth the risk which means its something valuable enough to risk defending.
And who says it has to be weeks or months? The loss could just be hours or a day, enough to really avoid death but not so much to quit the field and leave your friends hanging.
And neg lvls don't cause you to loss any earned abilities you just have to earn the exp back before you can start leveling again.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have almost no problems with this plan. I played EVE for a little while, and have heard stories from friends about how it works, and I've always liked how things turn out.
It is a somewhat punishing system, but it's one of the things that really separates sandbox MMO's from theme parks. In theme parks, the Risk of Loss remains constant, while the Opportunity for Reward continues to grow as you further develop your character and gain access to the deeper and more difficult parts of the game. In sandbox systems however, the Risk of Loss increases in relative proportion to your Opportunity for Reward. It allows the player to decide just how much they want to risk losing, and to decide just how much they want to try to gain.
If that kind game works for you it also tends to mean that your level of satisfaction increases along with the amount of risk. This can make for very rewarding gameplay. If it doesn't work for you, you'll wind up frustrated by feeling bottled in and always on edge. Not as rewarding.
I have no idea is this is feasible from a programming/technology standpoint, but the as stated by some above, the ability to distinguish between a server disconnect as a retreat from PvP and a client-side computer malfunction would be great, and would leave less people discouraged by their experience.
Instead of non-lethal duels, maybe a sanctioned PvP arena inside an NPC controlled safe-zone? Make it a fight to the death, maybe even charge money to watch, or allow combatants to make wagers. Could be an interesting option for conflict resolution and/or gladiatorial spectacle.
Liking it, keep on being awesome.
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Goblin Squad Member
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"That's called cowerdice"
When a position about game mechanics need to resort to that kind of argument it has already failed. There is non "cowardice" or "courage" in a computer game. There is convenience or annoyance.
If the level of annoyance imposed by a game mechanics is high enough people will avoid circumstances that would depend on that mechanic or stop playing completely. The consumers are paying to play and have fun, not to show "courage" to a in game audience.
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"That's called cowerdice"
When a position about game mechanics need to resort to that kind of argument it has already failed. There is non "cowardice" or "courage" in a computer game. There is convenience or annoyance.
If the level of annoyance imposed by a game mechanics is high enough people will avoid circumstances that would depend on that mechanic or stop playing completely. The consumers are paying to play and have fun, not to show "courage" to a in game audience.
true, i guess, yet i have never trully enjoyed that which does not make me worried about my chances of failure.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Long thread, I'm not sure if this was asked before.
Is there going to be a Friends list? Or even a Trusted list?
If so, can this be tied to allowing them to loot your husk if you are killed?
In this case the 'loot' is bundled and can be extracted by you when your Friend gives you the item? This 'looting' could take some time and be interrupted preventing it from being a simple and instant click to save a friend's gear.
Perhaps another 'consent' type system?
Just some thoughts.
I believe Ryan mentioned one of reasons for the destroying of equipment was that your friends couldn't just pick up your items and give them back to you. Your friends 2 options are if they have someone that can resurrect you, you will lose nothing, if they don't then they will have to protect your corpse until you return.
@Ryan: If inventory is intended to be more of a "consumable" nature than in the other games I've played, where inventory is of a "collectible" nature, then I suppose its occasional destruction makes sense and won't hurt as much as I initially perceived.
However, this doesn't alleviate my concerns about harvesting. Harvested materials will be the most valuable "consumable" in the game. To make a WoW analogy, say that mining copper can be done in low-risk areas near town. People mine lots of copper before returning to town, and occasionally lose all of it. Will this be worthwhile?
To continue the analogy, gold can be found in the high-risk wilderness. A miner makes a long journey, mines one nugget of gold, and then journeys back to minimize the potential loss. Will this be worthwhile?
One more step up. Will dragon scales be valuable enough that armies fight over them, and the risk of losing several is outweighed by the chance of getting one? Might several such consumables drop, allowing a raid group to spread them out among the raiders to minimize potential losses?
Part of these concerns could be alleviated by limited bag space. Being limited to a single backpack would make the destruction of its contents less painful than if we could carry 100+ items. This would also clue people in to the fact that they aren't meant to carry everything they own wherever they go.
But regardless of inventory size, as another poster pointed out, the loot mechanic can be gamed by carrying bags full of "rocks" that can be swapped out for loot. This would decrease the likelihood of an enemy being rewarded for a kill. This is also a pain to manage, but if it means the enemy has a 90% chance to loot a rock, people will do it.
You mentioned certain very valuable items would be immune to loot and destruction. I suggest a sliding scale on all inventory items. The more valuable, the less chance of it being looted. This would make carrying "rocks" completely unnecessary. For example, if all you have in your bag is a gold nugget and a sandwich, the enemy would have a 90% chance of looting the sandwich. Perhaps also the more valuable an item, the less chance of it being destroyed. If the purpose of loot destruction is to cycle through consumables, then having a decent chance to retrieve the gold nugget (while losing most other things) shouldn't interfere with that goal.
I believe Ryan mentioned one of reasons for the destroying of equipment was that your friends couldn't just pick up your items and give them back to you. Your friends 2 options are if they have someone that can resurrect you, you will lose nothing, if they don't then they will have to protect your corpse until you return.
Which opens another can of worms. This means the resser will be the most desireable group member to have, and may be a virtual requirement in the eyes of the players (if not an actual requirement).
1) Will resurrection be an archetype skill? If so, those will be the most valuable archetypes.
2) Will there be alternative methods of resurrection, via items or npc companions? If so, this would help alleviate the inflated value of resser archetypes.
3) Will healing be a dedicated role? If so, won't metagaming the healer/resser role be as stagnating as metagaming the tanking role? In place of a Trinity, you would have a Duality of healer/ressers and everyone else.
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Goblin Squad Member
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To continue the analogy, gold can be found in the high-risk wilderness. A miner makes a long journey, mines one nugget of gold, and then journeys back to minimize the potential loss. Will this be worthwhile?
With the size of the world etc... I highly doubt it, unless the fast travel mechanic is extremely strong, I would imagine that the trip out to the middle of the wilderness will be long and dangerous, you would more likely make a much better profit by hiring a group of players to be bodyguards, or perhaps just gang up with a bunch of people who want to harvest at the same time and watch eachother's backs. IMO if you've already taken the risk of going out there, you may as well get everything you can carry home.
But regardless of inventory size, as another poster pointed out, the loot mechanic can be gamed by carrying bags full of "rocks" that can be swapped out for loot. This would decrease the likelihood of an enemy being rewarded for a kill. This is also a pain to manage, but if it means the enemy has a 90% chance to loot a rock, people will do it.
Well they did mention that the game seems to have some knowledge of item rarity and value (I believe I recall only getting lower grade resources from people in high sec zones), so I'm pretty sure if it were a regular strategy the game could work around it and make it so that in low sec zones items of low value are exempt from being the ones looted, also though you are lowering how much you can carry (by using your own bag space) for a strategy that does not benefit you directly (as whether your enemy loots rocks or gold from you, you lose both anyway), only hinders your enemy.