Goblinworks Blog: To Live and Die in the River Kingdoms


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Added thread for new Goblinworks Blog: To Live and Die in the River Kingdoms.

Goblin Squad Member

zomg 1st!

EDIT: The feedback stuff:
I like what I read. This puts some topics of current discussion to rest, and will focus others into debating more of what will be than what might be.

Keep it coming, Ryan. I smell what you're cookin'.

Goblin Squad Member

zomg 2nd. Boooo Thornkeep :(

Like the sound of what I am reading!

Goblin Squad Member

Sweet, it really sounds like you guys have the plans set in place for death etc... Almost all of my concerns on those topics are greatly reduced.

1 question for Ryan and the gang on this one though.

If you are killed in town, and they use an unpartied looter to steal what little crap they can (as you did mention that it is only low value items that will be possible to loot in town), while the looter himself is not subject to guaranteed death by guard, will the looter be valid to kill by the citizens of the town without fear of repercussion from the city guard.


This is turning out to be fairly interesting, methinks...

Goblin Squad Member

I like what they have in mind for the bounty system. I see some potential for exploit, unless the actual accounts involved are tracked (hey, did you notice that Joe's claimed 8 bounties so far, and they're all for characters in Jim's account? Huh...). But I like that you can potentially mark someone repeatedly.

Goblin Squad Member

If you remain persistent when you log out...will it prevent you from loggin to an alt while that timer expires?


At this point, I love all systems you guys are gonna implement into the game. But there is one thing that makes me curious. What about weapons/armor detoriation if we don't have full loot system? It might end up pretty bad for the economy if one guy will have that "great" crafted armor for years, without real need for buying new one. Full loot is harsh, yes, but maybe something what makes your items less effective after many repairs?

In themepark mmo's you just change your armor(repairing doesn't really matter) into better one, until you hit the best. But content patches are constantly adding new stuff into the game, so you are still going to change your things into something else sooner or later. In most sandbox mmo's it works pretty different, as crafters are big part of the economy and people often seek their service. If you won't have to change your items, group of crafters might find their lack of customers disturbing.

Goblin Squad Member

NPC anti-murderer lawmen, eh? Did those marshals get their training in some town called... Concord?

I do really like the bounty re-issue idea. Oh, you want to go unleash Rockageddon on some guild of miners? Well, now their rich merchant friends will make sure you never set foot in town again. Ha! Of course, that assumes that the victims have any money to begin with...

Also: I do dislike open PvP for the most part, mainly due to, as you wrote, how much punishment most sandbox MMO's lay on players for death. (I'm looking at you, EvE Online, Mr. "You're lucky you respawn with pants on") But if I can at least keep my gear... maybe this will work out. Depends on what items you need for travel/surival that don't count as "equipment". (Or the ones that you don't need, but make travel/survival a lot easier).

Edit: This may be derailing the thread, but this is directed to SmartCheetah:
True, I don't want my gear to be "equip-and-forget", but my main issue is that, when I do get a set of gear I'm really happy with, and that is useful in endgame, I'd like some way to keep it repaired. Maybe make harsher repair costs than most theme-park MMO's. Say, instead of just shelling out a few measly coins to get your gear repaired, you have to repair it using the same type of materials as were used to craft the item. And maybe it will take time to repair, based on how badly the item is damaged, kinda like in tabletop Pathfinder? Come to think of it, repairing the item is very similar to crafting it, it just takes less materials and time...

For an example, from The Lord of the Rings: Narsil. Sure, a sword will get nicked and corroded during a fight, especially if not properly maintained, but that's not too hard to repair. But if something tragic happens and the sword outright breaks, then yes, it's useless in battle until it's repaired. But it's not impossible to repair it; you don't just lose the sword forever. (Unless you dropped it into a pool of acid/lava/void, but that's a separate issue)

Shadow Lodge Goblin Squad Member

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Well, I am unhappily back in the probably-won't-play-this-now camp. If I can work for hours and hours to gather stuff, and then get killed by some random mob, and then some random guy wanders by, takes a random selection of my stuff and the rest is destroyed forever, what exactly is my incentive to gather stuff?

"You there, I need you to go and collect the 20 bear paws."

Several hours pass, many bears are killed, much loot is gained. On the way back to town, the Mother of All Bears descends upon me, enacting vengeance for her children slaughtered this day. I die (it's the Mother of All Bears people). Sir-Noob-Alot wanders by, sees my bear ravaged corpse, and decides to loot me.

"This guy had some great stuff, I can sell this for pretty decent cash!"

Now, not only am I out my loot, I'm out the quest items, and Sir-Noob-Alot has gained cash at my expense, without risking the Mother of All Bears? Thanks but no thanks.

Shadow Lodge Goblin Squad Member

If there are banks with unlimited storage I can see this system not being all that bad, but loosing items just cause you couldn't fit them in the bank would suck.

Goblin Squad Member

Balodek wrote:

Well, I am unhappily back in the probably-won't-play-this-now camp. If I can work for hours and hours to gather stuff, and then get killed by some random mob, and then some random guy wanders by, takes a random selection of my stuff and the rest is destroyed forever, what exactly is my incentive to gather stuff?

"You there, I need you to go and collect the 20 bear paws."

Several hours pass, many bears are killed, much loot is gained. On the way back to town, the Mother of All Bears descends upon me, enacting vengeance for her children slaughtered this day. I die (it's the Mother of All Bears people). Sir-Noob-Alot wanders by, sees my bear ravaged corpse, and decides to loot me.

"This guy had some great stuff, I can sell this for pretty decent cash!"

Now, not only am I out my loot, I'm out the quest items, and Sir-Noob-Alot has gained cash at my expense, without risking the Mother of All Bears? Thanks but no thanks.

Well in general in the wilderness you bring friends, you acknowledge that it is dangerous to go it alone, if not the bears than the other players that may be specifically attacking for it. From the sounds of it, near town in the lower/mid sec areas with marshals patrolling, there won't likely be much in the way of "Mother of all bears" type enemies, considering the safeish zones are considered low risk low reward in the ways of both monsters and players.

Goblin Squad Member

Balodek wrote:

Well, I am unhappily back in the probably-won't-play-this-now camp. If I can work for hours and hours to gather stuff, and then get killed by some random mob, and then some random guy wanders by, takes a random selection of my stuff and the rest is destroyed forever, what exactly is my incentive to gather stuff?

"You there, I need you to go and collect the 20 bear paws."

Several hours pass, many bears are killed, much loot is gained. On the way back to town, the Mother of All Bears descends upon me, enacting vengeance for her children slaughtered this day. I die (it's the Mother of All Bears people). Sir-Noob-Alot wanders by, sees my bear ravaged corpse, and decides to loot me.

"This guy had some great stuff, I can sell this for pretty decent cash!"

Now, not only am I out my loot, I'm out the quest items, and Sir-Noob-Alot has gained cash at my expense, without risking the Mother of All Bears? Thanks but no thanks.

Your dealing with an ultimacy which would make any game appear dis-pleasurable. To this day, a player in World of Warcraft can camp an area preventing you from completing a quest. Should this dude be a higher level and assuming that you are as helpess as you claim you would be in Pathfinder, your are left with no choice but to log off or move to a new area in which you risk the same outcome. Pathfinder alternatively offers you a wealth of possible ways of managing said problems. You need to consider the whole picture.

A sandbox game differs from a themepark and any other game for that matter. Sandbox games have a learning curve; this isn't complete quest 1, 2 then 3, this is what should I do now? what can I do and where should I go to accomplish this? Sandbox games rely upon an ever growing player knowledge and not a linearity of gameplay.

The point I am trying to stress is that you will pick and choose your fights. You carry what you can afford to lose in dangerous areas and you adapt to the environment to which you are set in. You cannot assume that you are going to wander around risking death and loss of items and blame the system for when this happens. Whether or not you are interested in a game in which you are required to 'think' is another matter; Sandbox games are well known to be a great deal more complicated than the majority of other themepark MMORPGs.

I can only assume that systems will be in place to balance a scenario in which a stranger may loot a player in an area which is otherwise safe. Travelling to a more dangerous area alone in which you open your self susceptible to 'The Mother of All Bears' is accepting the risk that you are making yourself available to be robbed, either before or after your death.

It may seem much to ask in comparison to most games which allow you to play the game solo with relative ease, but those games exist and satisfy their markets. Sandboxes exist to appeal to those who want the integration and quality of online interaction required by more challenging and ultimately more rewarding game worlds. All I am saying is you have to consider your scenarios relative to the gaming culture and practices of a sandbox game.

Shadow Lodge Goblin Squad Member

Onishi wrote:


Well in general in the wilderness you bring friends, you acknowledge that it is dangerous to go it alone, if not the bears than the other players that may be specifically attacking for it. From the sounds of it, near town in the lower/mid sec areas with marshals patrolling, there won't likely be much in the way of "Mother of all bears" type enemies, considering the safeish zones are considered low risk low reward in the ways of both monsters and players.

Focusing on the extremes of my argument, especially the allegorical parts, to invalidate it doesn't really work. My point stands. If I can lose everything I've gathered by the actions of some other player, that's a nonstarter for me. It's even worse that the stuff they don't loot is destroyed. Now not only do not get it, the random jerk who looted me doesn't either.

You can't blog about people forming bounty hunter guilds in order to exploit an aspect of the game world and then pretend you didn't think through the implications of this too. People are going to form scavenging groups that do nothing but wander through areas and pick the corpses of players who die in PvE and PvP.

I can understand the urge to increase the consequences of death, but this is not the way to do it IMO. Corpse looting makes people unhappy. I don't even need to use MMOs as an example of this. How popular is the version of CCGs where the winner gets a random card of the losers? Answer: Not.


Balodek wrote:

Well, I am unhappily back in the probably-won't-play-this-now camp. If I can work for hours and hours to gather stuff, and then get killed by some random mob, and then some random guy wanders by, takes a random selection of my stuff and the rest is destroyed forever, what exactly is my incentive to gather stuff?

"You there, I need you to go and collect the 20 bear paws."

Several hours pass, many bears are killed, much loot is gained. On the way back to town, the Mother of All Bears descends upon me, enacting vengeance for her children slaughtered this day. I die (it's the Mother of All Bears people). Sir-Noob-Alot wanders by, sees my bear ravaged corpse, and decides to loot me.

"This guy had some great stuff, I can sell this for pretty decent cash!"

Now, not only am I out my loot, I'm out the quest items, and Sir-Noob-Alot has gained cash at my expense, without risking the Mother of All Bears? Thanks but no thanks.

I'm not going to say your opinion is invalid, but I totally disagree. Situations like the one you described are the price we as players pay for freedom in a game like this. The way I see it, this game is treating the players as adults and free agents who face risks accordingly. One man's freedom to kill harvesters is another man's freedom to hunt such people down and kill them. Asking for a game without frustration is like asking to play a sport with no chance of losing.

Shadow Lodge Goblin Squad Member

Coldman wrote:


Your dealing with an ultimacy which would make any game appear dis-pleasurable. To this day, a player in World of Warcraft can camp an area preventing you from completing a quest. Should this dude be a higher level and assuming that you are as helpess as you claim you would be in Pathfinder, your are left with no choice but to log off or move to a new area in which you risk the same outcome. Pathfinder alternatively offers you a wealth of possible ways of managing said problems. You need to consider the whole picture.

Even if I'm corpse camped I don't lose the benefits of my hours of work. I either need to call for friends to help or log off. Much the same as Pathfinder's proposed method sure, but the fact remains I can lose what I've worked for.

Coldman wrote:


A sandbox game differs from a themepark and any other game for that matter. Sandbox games have a learning curve; this isn't complete quest 1, 2 then 3, this is what should I do now? what can I do and where should I go to accomplish this? Sandbox games rely upon an ever growing player knowledge and not a linearity of gameplay.

Insulting my intelligence and my ability to play games doesn't invalidate my point.

Coldman wrote:


The point I am trying to stress is that you will pick and choose your fights. You carry what you can afford to lose in dangerous areas and you adapt to the environment to which you are set in. You...

You should read your own post. The point you're trying to make is you pick your own fights, the point you've actually made is that by entering an area of risk, one in which you can't actually pick your fights.

You're saying that it's ok to lose all you've worked for and your justification is that you're smarter than the average player so that makes it ok.

Goblin Squad Member

Balodek wrote:

You can't blog about people forming bounty hunter guilds in order to exploit an aspect of the game world and then pretend you didn't think through the implications of this too. People are going to form scavenging groups that do nothing but wander through areas and pick the corpses of players who die in PvE and PvP.

I've played every sandbox MMORPG which features full loot and this has never happened.

If you consider the availability for somebody to diminsh his or her alignment negatively and risk death through incriminating themselves through robbing you, then I would agree that you should not play. I will also say that this would be a shame; as I said in my previous post, for failing to accept any risk in your gameplay you surrender such a wealth of freedoms and a richness of interaction which only this brand of MMORPG can supply.

Shadow Lodge Goblin Squad Member

DeathMetal4tw wrote:


I'm not going to say your opinion is invalid, but I totally disagree. Situations like the one you described are the price we as players pay for freedom in a game like this. The way I see it, this game is treating the players as adults and free agents who face risks accordingly. One man's freedom to kill harvesters is another man's freedom to hunt such people down and kill them. Asking for a game without frustration is like asking to play a sport with no chance of losing.

So if you play a game for 4 hours and it crashes, losing all of your work for the last 4 hours, that's ok? You're an adult, you can deal with that. After all, that's the price you pay for free will. I don't want a game without frustration, I want a game where my frustration isn't created by paying to waste 4 hours of my life with no payoff at all.

Shadow Lodge Goblin Squad Member

Coldman wrote:


I've played every sandbox MMORPG which features full loot and this has never happened.

If you consider the availability for somebody to diminsh his or her alignment negatively and risk death through incriminating themselves through robbing you, then I would agree that you should not play. I will also say that this would be a shame; as I said in my previous post, for failing to accept any risk in your gameplay you surrender such a wealth of freedoms and a richness of interaction which only this brand of MMORPG can supply.

Nowhere does it say there are consequences for the looter. No hit on alignment, no risk for looting the dead. Pure reward, no way for the lootee to ever see that stuff again.

Goblin Squad Member

Balodek wrote:


Even if I'm corpse camped I don't lose the benefits of my hours of work. I either need to call for friends to help or log off. Much the same as Pathfinder's proposed method sure, but the fact remains I can lose what I've worked for.

Hours of 'work' is just a product of time spent. Whether someone restricts you from a required area for one hour or whether they take something from you which takes an hour to replace are one and the same thing.

Balodek wrote:


Insulting my intelligence and my ability to play games doesn't invalidate my point.

I wasn't insulting your intelligence :( I apologize if you thought I was. I tend to phrase things here as such due to a number of posters not having much MMORPG experience here.

Balodek wrote:


You should read your own post. The point you're trying to make is you pick your own fights, the point you've actually made is that by entering an area of risk, one in which you can't actually pick your fights.

You're saying that it's ok to lose all you've worked for and your justification is that you're smarter than the average player so that makes it ok.

Choosing to enter a high risk area (and with whom you go with) IS picking your fights. Null sec in Eve can be a terrifying place in which you WILL lose your stuff, it is also a place where you can feel as safe in the highest security areas. It is all dependent on variables.

I have played games such as Eve and UO where at times I have been at the mercy of others players whom have stolen countless hours from me. I will however say that players in World of Warcraft have cost me countless more hours.

Balodek wrote:


Nowhere does it say there are consequences for the looter. No hit on alignment, no risk for looting the dead. Pure reward, no way for the lootee to ever see that stuff again.

For the sake of my argument and given the fact that this has generally been the case in all past sandbox titles, I am going to assume that such a risk or punishment factor will exist. If a player magically receives an alignment hit for murdering a player in the wilderness, par with the norm thus far, I can only assume that unlawfully robbing a corpse will witness the same.

Goblin Squad Member

My only disappointment is the random loot. I don't see what this offers/fixes as opposed to a full loot (minus equipped gear which is a good idea to me). It also means even the most uber item might be simply destroyed by failing to quickly equip before death. At least with full loot it makes sense to hunt down gank-looters. Otherwise, I am excited and impressed.

EDIT: Oh...special NPC powers concerns me too. What if a player {or group} wants to play a Marshal for their PC town?

Shadow Lodge Goblin Squad Member

Coldman wrote:


I wasn't insulting your intelligence :( I apologize if you thought I was. I tend to phrase things here as such due to a number of posters not having much MMORPG experience here.

I have played a lot of WoW and other theme park games, the sandbox games were less interesting. Lineage II is my experience with open PvP. I think ultimately you and I are on the same side of this argument. If I'm going to lose my stuff to a player, then I would like to see consequences for that. I should be able to wander anywhere I want exploring, as it has been explicitly said that this is to be an open world game. I accept full consequences for my decisions to go where I shouldn't, but the thought of losing all of my potions, wands, camping gear, spare clothes, etc just because I went somewhere I shouldn't isn't fun, especially if the person that took it doesn't even suffer consequences for it.

Goblin Squad Member

I for one think the time limit is backwards here. I think the notion should be that a corpse does not become lootable until a certain amount of time passes - I'm not suggesting I have any clue whatsoever what that time period should be, but it should average out to "However long it would take the average player to go to the soulbinding spot and return to the corpse" given an average distance. (I'm not suggesting scientific accuracy or even that this time be variable - if you were silly enough to be 6 hours from your soulbind spot - although I'm presuming you can change your soulbind spot easily? - you should pay the price for that foolishness. But if, on average, it would take a person from hex A - the closest soulbind point - 5 minutes to get to hex B - being a reasonable "danger" zone where you're likely to start getting killed; say the border of the NPC Marshal zone - then your corpse should not become lootable until the 5 minute mark passes). Once a corpse becomes lootable, then you're in complete danger of losing your stuff.

(This makes murder-to-rob/loot, something that is already being actively discouraged, down right impossible, or at least impractical. You can camp a corpse, and I've no doubt the truly dedicated will do that, but I would still hate to lose all my stuff because a minute passed and I was 10 minutes from my corpse.)

The idea is to make losing all of your stuff* not an immediate punishment, but rather a punishment if you don't make getting your stuff back your priority. I suppose you can call this an "abandonment" theory.

*Yes, I know it's not all your stuff, but only that which you choose to carry with you; but whatever. If you're out there mining precious resources, you're going to have a pack full of precious resources at the end of the day which you have to lug home; perfect target for poaching.

Edit: Just wanted to add that I love the idea of player-run bounty hunter guilds that have a direct game mechanic for posting/receiving bounties. I hope there's a way you can "register" the guild (or if you're a freelancer, yourself, as a registered hunter) so that if you're killed you don't have to personally know of a guild/bounty hunter in order to post bounties for them.

Shadow Lodge Goblin Squad Member

Archmage_Atrus wrote:


*Yes, I know it's not all your stuff, but only that which you choose to carry with you; but whatever. If you're out there mining precious resources, you're going to have a pack full of precious resources at the end of the day which you have to lug home; perfect target for poaching.

Thank you Atrus, you phrased it exactly as I wished I had.

Spoiler:

Damn you whiskey coke!


Truth is you are not safe in Sandbox full loot games, nor in themepark games. I've seen a lot of griefing in World of Warcraft, playing on RP-PvP server. Problem is, that some people can't realize that, and when they see "lootable players", they instantly panic.
Actually, if you KNOW that you might lose something, you're way more careful with your actions. You won't rush to make -that quest- in -that area- because ye ain't assured that you have nothing to lose.
And I guess looting lawful corpse when in field of view of other people will get you flagged as well. That would make perfect sense.

Goblin Squad Member

One frequent occurence I must present is what often occurs in games which induce 'flagging criminal' upon committing an unlawful action it's use as a PvP flag.

Players in Ultima Online or Darkfall were ultimately willing to heal the monster you were attacking, loot your monster loot or commit any action which would turn themselves criminal as if to entice you to attack them.

Assuming that such unlawful actions will come with some form of relative punishment or feature to register such actions, I would propose that a simple reduction in alignment would be sufficient to counteract players from making these actions. Simple 'criminal flags' such as a 5 minute period in which the offender is openly attackable encourages griefing as the offender loses nothing but those 5 minutes of vulnerability to which they intend to use as the equivalent of waving a red flag at a bull.

Providing that an increasingly negative alignment comes with a noticeable shift in gameplay outcomes, negative hits to alignment would perfectly fit the bill.

Dark Archive Goblin Squad Member

I'm really intrigued by the exclusion of items/armor that will be a part of things that are left with your husk. Keeping worn items and weapons but dropping inventory items seems like a nice way to keep the risk vs. rewards of exploring an area. As a long time player from the original Everquest, I've missed games that have death penalties that sting.

I can imagine fighting through an area or dungeon and getting "that one item" you've wanted, or just a great item you hadn't planned on. Now to get out...you have to plan on continuing the fight further in and risking death - or do you consider porting out or fighting your way back out? How about equipping it and placing something else in your pack in exchange? Players will really have to plan ahead when they go out adventuring.

I'd like to know how the "random selection" of what's looted by another player works. Is there a percentage or some other system such as a strict number? IE, 20% can be looted, 30%, or 3 items, etc? How about changing the percentage/number of what's dropped by comparing how far the looting player is higher or lower in level? - for example, if I die in a level 2 dungeon as a level 2 player, I'd like to hope there's a diminishing rewards system in place to keep a level 12 player from camping the area waiting for players to die and looting their husk. Or having that level 12 player loot "just because" to grief you and have your husk destroyed. However, another level 2 player would be able to loot the husk at the full random percentage.

My thoughts for now..


SmartCheetah wrote:

Truth is you are not safe in Sandbox full loot games, nor in themepark games. I've seen a lot of griefing in World of Warcraft, playing on RP-PvP server. Problem is, that some people can't realize that, and when they see "lootable players", they instantly panic.

Actually, if you KNOW that you might lose something, you're way more careful with your actions. You won't rush to make -that quest- in -that area- because ye ain't assured that you have nothing to lose.
And I guess looting lawful corpse when in field of view of other people will get you flagged as well. That would make perfect sense.

The fact players can lose items on death mostly guarantee I won't play the game.

When I play a game, I want to be daring. To take risks. To see if I can beat that monster, if I can face that hard challenge and triumph. My preferred play style involves player deaths - lots of player deaths - because I'm not happy until I find something that is actually difficulty for my current character, sometimes even something my character is not even supposed to handle.

If the death penalty is too large, in the end I revert to never taking risks. Planning every little thing. Only doing something after I'm completely sure I will not fail.

Which makes me completely bored with the game in a very short time.


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I like what I read except the player loot issue, which I dislike to the extreme.

I'm firmly in your camp Balodek.

Quote:
I can understand the urge to increase the consequences of death...

I cannot understand it. I have heard every argument in favor of it and the value of it is completely lost on me. I guess I just value my toon's quality of life more than some arbitrary ideal of "consequence" in a video game.

Death is its own consequence. You die, you know you made a mistake, your time and money is wasted, and that is enough consequence. You won't be running headlong into that same scenario again.

Here is the compromise I would accept:

You die. Someone loots your corpse, receiving a random selection of its inventory. The rest stays there until you retrieve it.

What is the purpose of destroying it? To add insult to injury? The reasoning is unfathomable to me. You already died and learned your "lesson." You already got penalized with the loss of time, money, and property, and someone (perhaps whoever killed you) got a reward. What is the point of more penalty?

Goblin Squad Member

Saryx wrote:


I can imagine fighting through an area or dungeon and getting "that one item" you've wanted, or just a great item you hadn't planned on. Now to get out...you have to plan on continuing the fight further in and risking death - or do you consider porting out or fighting your way back out? How about equipping it and placing something else in your pack in exchange? Players will really have to plan ahead when they go out adventuring.

Odds are equiping it isn't going to be an option. That rare item you've always wanted isn't going to be a fully assembled sword, Everything they have said about the game implies the good gear will be crafted, the adventurers will be harvesting materials to craft with. Meaning the dragon isn't going to have a flaming sword, he's going to have a heart/toenail clipping/whatever, that is the key ingredient needed to have a flaming sword crafted. I also highly doubt "Port out" is going to be an option either, I doubt the fights are going to be instanced (as instance is the opposite of persistence which Ryan has often stated persistence is the key to a sandbox). I would imagine though yes tactics will be necessary, you will likely want to stick with the group until you all make it back safely to the safety deposit box, and possibly whoever is carrying the least or whoever can stealth the best to be scouting ahead for ambushes. It could create some very interesting tactics.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16

I don't have a lot to say about this blog, since I'm still not sure I'll ever play PF Online due to the PvP aspect. That being said I do have 2 quick questions:

How long does it take to loot a corpse? If it's not too long, then I'm not sure how the marshal system would work if you can spend 3 seconds looting, and then run from the nearest settlement.

When it's indicated that the marshals have NPC powers that PCs won't be able to get, and one is listed as the ability to freeze a PC in place - does that mean that hold person and similar spells won't be in the game for PCs?

Goblin Squad Member

JoelF847 wrote:

I don't have a lot to say about this blog, since I'm still not sure I'll ever play PF Online due to the PvP aspect. That being said I do have 2 quick questions:

How long does it take to loot a corpse? If it's not too long, then I'm not sure how the marshal system would work if you can spend 3 seconds looting, and then run from the nearest settlement.

When it's indicated that the marshals have NPC powers that PCs won't be able to get, and one is listed as the ability to freeze a PC in place - does that mean that hold person and similar spells won't be in the game for PCs?

Perhaps the marshals one won't have a save. While hold person and PC stuns/controls will


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Hudax wrote:

You die. Someone loots your corpse, receiving a random selection of its inventory. The rest stays there until you retrieve it.

What is the purpose of destroying it?

This was my exact thought when I read it.


Interesting. Just a couple questions for clarification reasons:

1.) It says when you die you respawn with the gear you are *wearing.* I just want to be clear that this is the case, and that any gear you have in your bags is lootable (resist/tanking gear you keep on hand for whatever reason, etc.)

2. For the Bounty system, it says " Each time the bounty is paid, the victim has the option to issue it again. And again. A wealthy victim could maintain the price on the head of a murderer for a very long time—forever, if they like."

Will there be a time limit on how long you could place another bounty? Could you wait a month until you have more money and place another bounty?

If you had a bounty on your head, will there be an official, in game option to remove it through reparations with the victim? E.G. If there is a "misunderstanding" and I offer 500g to someone who is placing bounties on me(Say mediator NPC's at settlements who will hold the offer money in escrow and return/forward it based on acceptance or denial), will he/she no longer be able to place bounties on me, or is it "haha sucker thanks for the gold I'm still going to bounty you!"

I could see how griefers could twist this if not. You see a guy running through the woods with low health, saying he'll pay you to heal him...except he's still in combat with another player that he attacked nearby. You heal him, he goes to kill the other guy, and you just got suckered into getting bountied. Obviously this isn't the game where you would be inclined to help total strangers, but weird circumstances tend to arise(or you could be roleplaying).


Good job Ryan and crew with this system! I believe it is a fair compromise for us hardcore people and perhaps the more softcore people. There is of course going to be people on both sides that want the extremes (i.e. no penalties for death or perma-death)but for the most part this system has alot of potential. There will definitely be people who find ways to exploit the system but hopefully the community can help sort this out. From what I've been reading on the blog and posts around the forums; it seems that this system will support a slower form of travel (this helps the economy too, although I could be wrong about my assumption) which is vital to keeping this system worthwhile. Afterall what's the point of the risk if a player in danger coud just port out to the nearest city?

Now my only concern is that of "soulbinding". How difficult will it be to soul-bind to a city, what is this process and how long will it take? Can your soul only go to the nearest soulbound city? How many cities would we be allowed to soul-bind onto? This system could be exploited severely, as a way of fast teleportation, not that the kinks in the system couldn't be worked out. I just see this as a potentially problematic feature especially concerning PvP. But overall, nice job with the proposed system!


some random thoughts....

I understand the "you find a corpse you can loot it" - though I have no understanding why then instantly all other possesions should disappear.

On the other side I'd understand that over time more and more items disappear.

Generally I'd distinguish between "soulbound" and "tradeable" items. Only the later should be lootable. That would remove my biggest issue about loosing quest items. You'd still need to retrieve your items after all.

and - if you loot, you are a thief and should be punished. Not as much as if you kill someone, but maybe you might loose some of your gold next time you come to town?

Goblin Squad Member

5 people marked this as a favorite.

Lots of fantastic comments & feedback in this thread!

You Are The Content

The first thing you need to do is turn your imagination around and think about what the game is like for the other characters.

You are their content. The people who are harvesting and transporting stuff are the source of these's people's gameplay. In the sandbox, YOU are the source of the loot drops that Themeparks provide via meaningless endlessly respawning non-persistent mobs.

You have to spend a long time, sometimes a really long time waiting for a viable target for your attack. Characters just wandering buy loaded with phat loot and not a care in the world are, shall we say, uncommon.

Now imagine that at last you've spotted someone worth attacking. You're worried: Does this character have friends nearby that could retaliate? Is this target a wolf in sheep's clothing liable to surprise us with leet cømbat skills? If I take this target down am I going to have time to loot the husk and get the stuff to someplace safe?

OK, you go for it. You and the target melee and after a fair bit of damage done you win. Standing there waiting to get healed you're at your weakest; damaged, resource depleted and likely less than situationally aware of your surroundings.

That makes you an easy target yourself. The people who prey on the people who prey on others are out there, just waiting for this kind of opportunity. BING! a bounty appears on your character. Great, now folks who are really really good at killing folks like you are on their way to the site of the husk (shared, of course by the dead target). You've got to move quickly.

What makes all this effort and risk worthwhile? If you're involved in a territorial dispute, you want your opponents to suffer from the attack. Getting "Free stuff" from the husk doesn't do that. You want to deny them access to whatever the target was harvesting or transporting. If you're involved in economic warfare you want your to disrupt your adversary's logisitics chain - here you not only want your enemy to be denied access to the resources but you want to benefit by gaining them yourself. If you're just out for the lulz you're happy to get whatever you can get; the economic value isn't driving your actions anyway.

Why Partial Looting Is Necessary

Imagine that you have a chance, when you kill an opponent, to get a range of value from nothing to Wahoo! Wahoo! being potentially complete sets of gear, very valuable resources, maps, quest items, spell components, etc.

The folks who happen to get lucky in this scenario win lottery tickets. Their wealth jumps massively compared to their peers. For the same effort expended they get a disproportionate benefit vs. the average or the mean return. This is a problem that goes all the way back to the tabletop; if you let the PCs loot NPCs for all their gear they'll end up with way better stuff from killing NPCs than from anything else they do.

To manage the economy we want to see characters primarily advancing their wealth through effort and being clever, not through luck. Luck will play some role, but it should not be the decisive, overwhelming factor that separates the haves from the have-nots.

Random loot is a tool that we use from a game design perspective to limit the chances for lottery ticket wins.

What Do You Get Out Of The Deal

You harvesters, crafters, and transporters? You're in business to provide consumables and durable goods to the characters who are out there fighting your opposite numbers in the other factions. The actions those folks are taking are generating the demand for what you're producing which allows you to sell it at a profit, and thus invest your profits into more harvesting, crafting and tranportation.

It's a virtuous cycle: The more PvP there is, the more need for PvE there is. And the more activity there is in between the PvE and the PvP, driving a vibrant exciting economy.

I Can't Stand The Idea That My Stuff Gets Taken Or Lost

Yup, I hear ya. Luckily, there are umpteen dozen themepark MMOs for you where you don't have to worry about it. We already know how those games develop: They have a big spike, a maximum level of success, then a collapse followed by server consolidation and a starvation of future development investment due to a failure to "compete" with World of Warcraft. Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result is one of the definitions of insanity.

The only way for Pathfinder Online to be successful is to carve out its own niche and be different from those umpteen dozen other games. This is one of the ways we're doing it. Pathfinder Online won't be all things to all people. Instead, it will be a great thing for the people who want what it is. And that thing includes a world where you will face consequences that are meaningful and persistent. It's not a place where you go just for easy fun and no stress. Instead, it's a virtual world that's going to be as meaningful to you as parts of your real life.

Goblin Squad Member

My take on the looting:

A random item, perhaps a fraction of carried money, is immediately available for looting. Even before the character "releases" and starts the corpse run.

Once the loot has been taken, another random loot item becomes available after X amount of time. The lootables don't pile up, so someone coming across your untouched fresh corpse 10 minutes in will still only find the first item.

You don't lose everything, though you lose more and more if you don't make haste.

With the destroy-on-loot system, there pretty much has to be a loot timer, since otherwise the deceased would pretty much always lose all their stuff in PvP. Under my idea, the winner can take his prize immediately and be off.

On the other hand, the loot timer gives you time to get your friends / marshals to the scene of the crime to help.

On the other other hand, the looter could get greedy and decide to stick around to get extra drops, giving you back that opportunity.

The other issue is corpse camping. If the corpse can be looted multiple times, then getting a group to sit on it and keep you from reclaiming it might be profitable. They could eventually milk all of the items out of it. To remove this temptation, giving you the ability to remotely destroy your corpse after a certain amount of time (destroying all items still on it) might work.

Of course, the simpler thing to do would be to just drop a few things immediately and then not leave a corpse behind once you release. You keep the majority of your stuff, the winner gets some gold and other odds and ends, and we're all spared from having to hear about corpse runs on the public channels. I didn't play much EverQuest, but "HAS ANYONE SEEN MY CORPSE?" messages got old fast.

Oh, but one additional thing I would add: if you're killed by an NPC or monster, or one comes across your dropped items, give them a chance to pick the stuff up if they like it. Maybe even equip it, if it's appropriate.

Goblin Squad Member

Rauxis wrote:

some random thoughts....

I understand the "you find a corpse you can loot it" - though I have no understanding why then instantly all other possesions should disappear.

On the other side I'd understand that over time more and more items disappear.

Generally I'd distinguish between "soulbound" and "tradeable" items. Only the later should be lootable. That would remove my biggest issue about loosing quest items. You'd still need to retrieve your items after all.

and - if you loot, you are a thief and should be punished. Not as much as if you kill someone, but maybe you might loose some of your gold next time you come to town?

Soulbound has no place in a sandbox MMO, and doubles in annoyance for an open world PVP game. for the economy to flourish, items and resources will need to be destroyed and removed on a regular basis, this can work in 2 ways.

1. Soulbind and rapid obsolescence
2. Regular destruction and loss

Rapid obsolescence means a rapidly improving gear curve. Meaning a rapid climbing steadily increasing level of power, which results in dues ex machina, just like in WoW, a fresh 85 and an 85 in the top gear, are not in the same league, if for some reason they are in the same battlegrounds match, the 85 without the best gear should just sit on the sidelines and wait for the match to end... While this is fine for WoW, we are talking about a game where the level 10's and 20 equivelents will be sharing a battlefield regularly, and the 10's have just as much if not more to lose, They absolutely have to be able to make a difference (I am not saying they should be as powerful, but they need to be strong enough to have an effect on the battle, otherwise the game becomes a battle of the top, everyone else is just decorative).

for 2. I think gear itself will have to wear out, regularly, possibly weapons will have durrability and break over time etc... and either not be repairable, or actually cost the same kinds of resources to fix that it did to craft in the first place.

Before this blog post I figured it would be likely to break on death, but that appears to not be the intent, which makes some sense if you want to give the player a chance to get his stuff back when killed by a monster, but it likely will take wear and tear damage when used to permit a continous economy of remaking items as they are destroyed, while not having a continuous climb in power that cannot end.

Goblin Squad Member

Destroying gear sounds like a way to keep part of the economy in check. This blog sounds good except for the losing gear part. I am not one of those that will solo all the time, but I occasionally like to. This system sounds like it will be tough to solo unless you're near a city with low risk/reward. Which is fine, intended purpose I guess. I'm all for risking a death in a tougher area and losing an item maybe, but all your gear? No thx. Game sounds great so far. Keep up the great blogs. How bout once a week, two weeks is killin me!

Goblin Squad Member

Some specific responses:

Onishi wrote:
If you are killed in town, and they use an unpartied looter to steal what little crap they can (as you did mention that it is only low value items that will be possible to loot in town), while the looter himself is not subject to guaranteed death by guard, will the looter be valid to kill by the citizens of the town without fear of repercussion from the city guard.

I don't know where you saw anything about looting in towns. Likely not possible.

Taking stuff from a husk is not an unlawful act and incurs no penalties.

Kryzbyn wrote:
If you remain persistent when you log out...will it prevent you from loggin to an alt while that timer expires?

I don't know.

SmartCheetah wrote:
What about weapons/armor detoriation if we don't have full loot system?

I don't know.

KitNyx wrote:
What if a player {or group} wants to play a Marshal for their PC town?

I don't know.

Saryx wrote:
I'd like to know how the "random selection" of what's looted by another player works.

I don't know.

JoelF847 wrote:
How long does it take to loot a corpse?

Effectively instantaneously once you're in the same space.

JoelF847 wrote:
does that mean that hold person and similar spells won't be in the game for PCs?

It's highly likely that something like Hold Person will be in the game.

Urlithani wrote:
any gear you have in your bags is lootable

Yes, that's correct.

Urlithani wrote:
Will there be a time limit on how long you could place another bounty?

Almost certainly, and short - minutes maybe.

Urlithani wrote:
If you had a bounty on your head, will there be an official, in game option to remove it through reparations with the victim?

Absolutely not. That would not maximize human interaction.

Urlithani wrote:
You see a guy running through the woods with low health, saying he'll pay you to heal him...except he's still in combat with another player that he attacked nearby. You heal him.

One meta-rule we have self-imposed is that nobody becomes a criminal by accident, and without warning beforehand. It will not happen due to someone else's actions, only your own.

Solemor Far'men wrote:
How difficult will it be to soul-bind to a city, what is this process and how long will it take?

I don't know. Could vary by how many skillpoints you have.

Solemor Far'men wrote:
How many cities would we be allowed to soul-bind onto?

You'll only be soulbound once, but it may not be limited to just cities.

Shadow Lodge Goblin Squad Member

Ryan Dancey wrote:

I Can't Stand The Idea That My Stuff Gets Taken Or Lost

Yup, I hear ya. Luckily, there are umpteen dozen themepark MMOs for you where you don't have to worry about it. We already know how those games develop: They have a big spike, a maximum level of success, then a collapse followed by server consolidation and a starvation of future development investment due to a failure to "compete" with World of Warcraft. Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result is one of the definitions of insanity.

So you post a blog asking for feedback, get said feedback, and then (in direct contradiction to the blog itself) tell us that this won't be changing and if we don't like it we can spend our money elsewhere. But I'm insane?

I fully accept that you know more about this than I do, there's no way around the fact that you are 100% more qualified to speak on this, but I can't get around the fact that you're flat out telling us you want this game to be a stressful experience with consequences where we get to pay you to be other people's lootable corpse.

Goblin Squad Member

Balodek wrote:
I can't get around the fact that you're flat out telling us you want this game to be a stressful experience with consequences where we get to pay you to be other people's lootable corpse.

Transparency at work. Would you rather we strung you along with half-promises the hinted at the opposite only to reveal at the last minute what the actual plan is?

Just for the record, I don't think you're insane (unless you're actively involved in developing a themepark fantasy MMO with "compete with World of Warcraft" as your business plan).

RyanD

Goblin Squad Member

Ryan Dancey wrote:

Some specific responses:

Onishi wrote:
If you are killed in town, and they use an unpartied looter to steal what little crap they can (as you did mention that it is only low value items that will be possible to loot in town), while the looter himself is not subject to guaranteed death by guard, will the looter be valid to kill by the citizens of the town without fear of repercussion from the city guard.

I don't know where you saw anything about looting in towns. Likely not possible.

Taking stuff from a husk is not an unlawful act and incurs no penalties.

Maybe not in town, but in a high sec zone, what I am referring to is

blog wrote:
your attackers will likely be dead—or at least long gone—so you have a chance to return to your husk and recoup your lost inventory. Of course, teams of players acting together—but not forming parties or aiding and abetting each other—may be prepared to loot your husk even if the attacking characters flee, so there are no guarantees.

So if say a ganker kills me in a high sec zone on a worthless alt of his with little of value other then the gear he is carrying, and his partner loots me, is there anything my friends/guild etc... can do to get my items back from the looting alt that he is in cahoots with that will not involve the guards killing my friends/guild?

Goblin Squad Member

Thanks for the clarification on the blog post!

Ryan Dancey wrote:

Why Partial Looting Is Necessary

Imagine that you have a chance, when you kill an opponent, to get a range of value from nothing to Wahoo! Wahoo! being potentially complete sets of gear, very valuable resources, maps, quest items, spell components, etc.

The folks who happen to get lucky in this scenario win lottery tickets. Their wealth jumps massively compared to their peers. For the same effort expended they get a disproportionate benefit vs. the average or the mean return. This is a problem that goes all the way back to the tabletop; if you let the PCs loot NPCs for all their gear they'll end up with way better stuff from killing NPCs than from anything else they do.

To manage the economy we want to see characters primarily advancing their wealth through effort and being clever, not through luck. Luck will play some role, but it should not be the decisive, overwhelming factor that separates the haves from the have-nots.

Random loot is a tool that we use from a game design perspective to limit the chances for lottery ticket wins.

I suppose now I don't understand why the NPC have such uber gear. I admit that my P&P campaigns are low-fantasy with lots of grittiness, but my players can always full loot. It is absurd to deny them the ability to grab stuff off a corpse that the pre-corpse was just using. Of course, armor is sized for individuals and require like sized pieces for individuals to wear...a 6'5" human is not about to take and put on the gear from a 5'5" elf...but weapons are fairly standard in size, and random non-wearable gear and resources are also not size dependent.

To me, it seems a bit absurd that some random roving NPC bandits are going to be carrying life altering wealth...and I am fairly sure few PCs will be either in a full PvP game.

EDIT: Thanks for the honesty in the game direction. I agree you cannot please everyone and should not be trying to (even if that includes me *grin*). Build your vision and fix what does not work as intended. I hope our comments are able to contribute when the input is wanted. My opinion anyways.

I am very impressed with the direction so far and I understand compromises and limits are necessary.

Goblin Squad Member

I will most likely try this game but many of my friends won't because there is full looting. I understand you want to make a unique game, but you will be losing many PF peeps to do that.

Shadow Lodge Goblin Squad Member

Ryan Dancey wrote:
Balodek wrote:
I can't get around the fact that you're flat out telling us you want this game to be a stressful experience with consequences where we get to pay you to be other people's lootable corpse.

Transparency at work. Would you rather we strung you along with half-promises the hinted at the opposite only to reveal at the last minute what the actual plan is?

Just for the record, I don't think you're insane (unless you're actively involved in developing a themepark fantasy MMO with "compete with World of Warcraft" as your business plan).

RyanD

I appreciate the transparency, it's refreshing, and I even understand why you've chosen to alienate part of your potential player base (as you said you can't please everybody).

Ultimately, as I have said, you know far more about what you're doing than I do. I hope this product succeeds for everybody involved, and since you obviously have more invested in this than any of us you want it to succeed far more than we do! It will do so without me, my wife, or about 20 other people I know, as this would be a deal breaker for all of them.

I realized you don't care if I play or not, you've said as much earlier, it just saddens me that you're willing to dismiss casual gamers who don't want to show up every night and risk losing everything they've worked so hard for. I call that life, I have to go to it every day, I see no need to pay somebody for a pretend life that is more work on top of what I already have.

Having said this, you have a much bigger picture of the final product than I do. There might be something in a future blog post that changes my mind. I'm willing to give this product a chance despite my misgivings because it is backed by Paizo, and they have earned my loyalty through consistent vision and excellent customer service. What this blog post and follow up posts have illustrated to me is the stark difference between what you are making and what they make.

Again, I realize I am one small voice from the middle of nowhere. I know I will have little impact on the direction of this game and that you care little for my opinion on the matter, but I feel it my duty to whisper in Ozymandias' ear, as it were.


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Ryan Dancey wrote:

Transparency at work. Would you rather we strung you along with half-promises the hinted at the opposite only to reveal at the last minute what the actual plan is?

Just for the record, I don't think you're insane (unless you're actively involved in developing a themepark fantasy MMO with "compete with World of Warcraft" as your business plan).

RyanD

It's good to see that there is a company that understands how profitable a niche market can be and also doesn't carebear their gamers into believing there game is something else. I prefer frankness and integrity more then anything else in a business model. As Kit put it, I too am impressed with how the company has been handling PR, compromises, and boldness. You all are doing a fine job and I hope our feedback and imput is helping! I also appreciate the direction the game is going and trust that Goblinworks (in collaboration with Paizo) will make this game shine!

Anyhow back to the topic of the thread. I'm glad for the clarification on the soul-binding part of the whole system, I am much more comfortable knowing that you can only be soulbound once. As with everything, brainstorming and time will come up with answers and ideas for that system. But as of now ( being we are early on) I think we know enough to suffice. Needless to say, I am very interested in how this will work out in the future and how (possibly) skillpoints will work into all of this. Also, another interesting subject is what one can be soulbound onto, perhaps a temple, landmark, or even stranger... a person (no idea how that work, nor am I supporting it)? Haha, now I feel like I should talk about Horcruxes, Harry Potter, and Voldemort.

Now my only concern for the partial looting system is that if I were to kill someone because I wanted something they had really, really badly (persay a powerful artifact, the deed to start a city, a very very rare ore that is required to start building a castle, or heck I just want to get my good ole 2 year old trusty sword back that is precious to me) that by killing them I could potentially lose that one thing that I wanted and have been hunting for. This seems counterproductive to me. If a guild loses something valueable to another guild, the first thing they are going to do is stage a counter-attack/ambush to regain the valueable "thing". What is the point of doing this (other then revenge and glory), if there is a high likely-hood that the guild would not be able to recover that precious artifact (ect).

Now I could very well just be missing a point or idea here, if so, could someone enlighten me?

Goblin Squad Member

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I think with your business model, this is absolutely the route you need to take. You're planning to cater to the niche. Many sandboxes I've read about seem to shoot for large crowds, and try to enforce these 'old school'/strict rules. Most folks probably don't want to play this way, but I bet you'll be able to find 4,500 who will.

Personally, I'm terrified! But I'm willing to try it out!

I don't remember much of the content in Everquest. I was nine when I played it. But I remember the fear. It was exciting, and few games have recreated that. It was also frustrated at times, but I think retaining your equipped armor/weapons is a major compromise, and will go a long way in keeping the frustration from becoming overwhelming.

Goblin Squad Member

Caladyn wrote:

I think with your business model, this is absolutely the route you need to take. You're planning to cater to the niche. Many sandboxes I've read about seem to shoot for large crowds, and try to enforce these 'old school'/strict rules. Most folks probably don't want to play this way, but I bet you'll be able to find 4,500 who will.

Personally, I'm terrified! But I'm willing to try it out!

I don't remember much of the content in Everquest. I was nine when I played it. But I remember the fear. It was exciting, and few games have recreated that. It was also frustrated at times, but I think retaining your equipped armor/weapons is a major compromise, and will go a long way in keeping the frustration from becoming overwhelming.

While I do agree with the idea that, having to recover, or worse just get along with your gear after you have been bested would be too strong, can we get a solid answer or a hint on if gear itself is going to wear out/break etc... I remember Ryan saying that the loss of items will have to be commonplace in order for a robust economy, and I completely agree with that statement, but not losing gear on death sounds like it will be a huge hindrance to that goal, as now all that is lost on death is what you just finished gathering. Does that mean gear will break in other ways (IE durability over usage etc... and if so any ballpark on how long/often gear will be destroyed?

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