Goblinworks Blog: To Live and Die in the River Kingdoms


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Goblin Squad Member

@Grimelark, Ryan posted this in Kickstarter Community Thread: Player vs. Player Conflict:

Ryan Dancey wrote:
@All - what is lootable and how that system will work is very much on the drawing board. In fact, based on a diagram I saw in a conference room today, I think literally. :)

Goblin Squad Member

Grimelark wrote:
little latae to the party, but I have to say losing all of your equipment is pretty dang harsh. PvP where a guy pops you and you lose your epic sword of e-peenness? Random loss is bad enough completely tossing out all the rest of your equipment sounds like fun until you finish the Thornkeep 'module' get your rewards then loose them to some stool sample who decides to pop you while your walking through the forest.

A little late and not well informed, read the blog entry again(or just read the blog entry if you didn't.).

You don't lose your equipment, just your inventory.

You should never carry an epic item in your inventory alone.

The end of a dungeon involves your raiding party transporting a load of goods back to your territory.

Having 10 million coin doesn't mean you buy something worth 10 million coin, or even 5 million. You only buy what you can easily replace.

Goblin Squad Member

Ah I misread that. Losing your inventory is far more acceptable. Thank you for your clarification.

Goblin Squad Member

This "decision" is interesting. It is stated as trying to differentiate itself and add some "character". The only thing it does in any game that has a similar mechanic is lead to grief by the general population and supports the greed of a few elite gamers. This may not seem like a big ticket item, but it is one that will cause extreme polarization and in my experience lead to a small set of competitive gamers being the only people that play routinely. This is a complete fail as far as decisions go.

Specifying that it is only items in your inventory is a cop out. Even bunches of little stuff that you have to spend time on is an annoying loss for the casual gamer that makes up most of the community.

Of course at this point those that enjoy griefing will step in and say ... hey it's not that bad. Yeah, it kinda is, it's just a complete time waste for the casual gamer. Enjoy your small game with a dedicated few.

Sigh, and I was really looking forward to this game.

Goblin Squad Member

Pyroclasm wrote:

Specifying that it is only items in your inventory is a cop out. Even bunches of little stuff that you have to spend time on is an annoying loss for the casual gamer that makes up most of the community.

Of course at this point those that enjoy griefing will step in and say ... hey it's not that bad. Yeah, it kinda is, it's just a complete time waste for the casual gamer. Enjoy your small game with a dedicated few.

Sigh, and I was really looking forward to this game.

I encourage you to look into The Empyrean Order, The Keepers of the Circle (of which I am am a member), and Peace Through Vigilance - all of which will be actively taking the fight to griefers and protecting casual and other players from their predations to the best of their abilities. TEO is the largest (and one of the best organized) groups around and they are staunchly anti-griefing - Andius in particular has been actively advocating this in his posts.

Aside from the groups actively working to get in the way of griefers, the bounty system, GMs and community will be working towards building a game everyone can enjoy and mitigating the downsides of open PVP. Yes, like EVE, there will be significant risks in many places. But there will also be literally miles and miles of game world that will NOT be lawless and filled with murderhobos. No one is advocating that behavior.

We are advocating the right (and desirability) of players to play characters that are bandits, outlaws, and thieves. There's a world of difference between the bandit who demands a toll and threatens force and the murderhobo who kills everything that comes near him.

Keep in mind that the power-scaling will be much, much more shallow than other fantasy MMORPGs and unless you're traveling alone in the most dangerous areas, you're not likely to get killed over and over ad nauseum. There are players, mechanics, and GMs on your side. Everyone wants to have fun.

I will personally escort you and interdict murderhobos if it comes to that. I don't like murderhobos, you don't like murderhobos, and Hroderich wants to make a name for himself. How better to do that (outside of the shield wall) than to go around slaughtering guys with high kill counts - and doing it legitimately? :P

Goblin Squad Member

I have read the blogs To Live and Die in the River Kingdoms and Gypsies, Tramps, and Thieves and I am not satisfied with the description of how the death mechanics work. I do not like the fact that one god, Pharasma, resurrects all who die. I do not find this immersive if the same god is going to resurrect my enemies and my allies. Since discussion was encouraged and it's still early in development I would like to offer my suggestion.

My goals for this mechanic:

  • Add an immersive resurrection mechanic.
  • Gives the gods a reason to keep you alive.
  • Add more depth to the deities.
  • A system that encourages you to role-play your alignment without confining you to it.
  • Add more depth to healer/cleric builds. (which I am biased towards)
  • Most importantly it has to be fun!

Death, dying, and resurrection

Death will be nearly impossible to avoid. At some point during the game you will die. I will go over the moments before you die, what happens when you die, and how to survive death.

Dying is that state you go into when you hit 0 hit points. Once you are dying you will continue to lose hit points from bleeding. You can also still be attacked, or a coup de grace may be performed. If you hit a set number of negative hit points or a coup de grace is performed you will die. While you are bleeding you can be stabilized by anyone who has the most basic healing skill. The better the player’s healing skill the better the chance of being stabilized.

When death occurs you will become a spirit. At this point you will have to decide if you want to wait for help or release your spirit. You will have to have gained favor with your deity to be resurrected at the last temple where you prayed. If you do not have favor you will be stuck until help arrives. You may roam within a certain distance from your body. If your body is moved, your spirit must move with it. While in spirit form you may whisper to those within range.

You can also haunt those around you if you so wish. In spirit form you will have the ability to protect your body from looting. You can disrupt those who are touching your body. This attack does no damage but does interrupt someone from grave robbing or trying to drag you away. You are invisible to all except other spirits. Attacking someone who is touching your body will make you appear incorporeal. You may even be able to learn more effective ways to affect the living and maybe other spirits while in spirit form through the skill system.

At death your body will begin to decay. As your body decays your memories will start to fade. Without the talents of someone who can cast a spell to preserve your body or memories you will develop amnesia and lose random skills up to a fixed amount. A healer who is exceptionally skilled at preserving memories may even be able to reverse the effects of amnesia. A highly trained healer would be able to target all allies on a battlefield effectively preserving them. Multiple castings may be required depending on level of decay, number of bodies, and distance needed to travel.

Time that it takes to recover from death will need to be balanced. It would probably take about 5-8 minutes on average to move a body, protect memories, and resurrect depending on travel time. Here’s more information about travel in the blog Time is the Fire in which We Burn. Resurrection on site would be immediate, and releasing and resurrection would be immediate but with about 10 minutes of resurrection sickness.

The ability to resurrect, or bind a spirit back to its body, should be considered the pinnacle of any cleric’s profession. If there is not a cleric of sufficient skill then a trip to that player’s patron temple would be required. You would have to transport the body by dragging, using transportation, or if you have the proper spell, animating the body.

Once you have someone to raise the body you will have to prepare it. You may still need to reverse the amnesia. The body is most likely still broken so it will need to be healed to bring it to at least 1 hit point or resurrection will fail. If you received a critical hit, those effects will carry over until healed. You can find more information about critical hits in the blog Gentlemen, You Can't Fight in Here! This is the War Room!. Critical hits could also determine which skills are affected by amnesia. If your soul is willing and you are successfully resurrected you may have some resurrection sickness plus you may still need to be healed further. You will also save your favors you have with your deity.

Sometimes you may be alone, or the enemy is still guarding your corpse preventing others from helping you, or you may be concerned about memory decay. If this should happen you may release your spirit. Your body and everything you were carrying will be left behind. Your deity will create a new body for you at the last temple you prayed and your spirit will bind to this new body. It will be fully healed but in an extreme case of weakness, it will also have memory loss incurred up to the point you released. Any items you had threaded to you will appear in your temple’s coffer available for you to pick up. Everything else will either have disappeared or been looted. You can find more information about looting and threading in the blog Gypsies, Tramps, and Thieves . You will have also lost 1 favor with your deity. You may go on another quest for your deity to gain another favor up to the max.

In summary you have a short amount of time after falling in combat to be saved from death. Once death occurs you will need a powerful healer to resurrect you. If no healer is available you may release your spirit back to the most recent temple where you have prayed, this would require a favor from your deity. Without favor from a deity you will have to wait for a rescue. Skill will begin to decay when you die, however, a spell can be cast to prevent further decay or even reverse it.

Favors

The Favor system is designed to bring more life to the deities and how you roleplay your character’s alignment. I will break down possible ways you can gain favor with your chosen deity. Selecting your deity would reflect your own alignment. That deity’s portfolio would determine what type of quests or actions would be required to gain favor. Without favor, you will need someone to help you. Quest or task options can include combat, contracts, politics, crafting, and/or building.

Deity (Alignment) [Portfolio]

Abadar (LG, LN, LE, N) [Cities, Wealth, Merchants, Law]

  • Casting a vote(s) for a settlement or kingdom.
  • Building or purchasing a shop or residence.
  • Selling a certain value of merchandise.
  • Donating money to the temple.

Asmodeus (LN, LE, NE) [Tyranny, Slavery, Pride, Contracts]

  • Completing a contract to buy or sell slaves.
  • Casting a vote in a settlement where only your vote counts.
  • Completing a contract where you are clearly receiving the better end of the bargain.
  • Convincing a slave to sacrifice themselves to Asmodeus.

Cayden Cailean (NG, CG, CN) [Freedom, Ale, Wine, Bravery]

  • Releasing someone from confinement or slavery.
  • Crafting ale or wine.
  • Completing a contract such as hunting down an Owlbear.

Desna (NG, CG, CN) [Dreams, Stars, Travelers, Luck]

  • Travel to a specific temple of Desna and observe the night sky.
  • Win at a game of chance.

Iomedae (LG, LN, NG) [Valor, Rulership, Justice, Honor]

  • Capturing a criminal alive and bringing them to justice.
  • Casting a vote in a lawful good settlement.
  • Gaining a position of leadership in a settlement.
  • Completing a contract such as removing bandits that have been attacking the locals.

These are but a sample of the deities and possible ways to gain favor. To gain the quest you would go to a temple of the deity you wish to worship and pray. Complete the challenge given by the aspect and you will receive your favor. You can have up to a set limit of favors (possibly 3) and you can only carry favor with one deity at a time. Gaining favor with a different deity forfeits your favors with the other deity. A change in alignment that puts you out of step with your deity also forfeits your favors with your deity and you will either have to worship a new deity or find a way to change your alignment back.

With the latest add-ons available you can now get a second mark of Pharasma. I do not want to interfere with anyone who has put money towards this add-on. My suggestion would be you would still get the mark and the mechanics that go with it along with the system I have just described.

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

I'll be honest, Mushroom C1oud, I'm really not a fan of the system you've proposed. It sounds needlessly punishing.

Goblin Squad Member

Please be more specific. If you have a suggestion or critism that's fine, but I can't change anything without knowing what about it you don't like.

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

It just seems you're stuck with a dead body and waiting around instead of the system that Mr. Dancey had previously described where you just leave a husk and run back. It seems simple and easy. It sounds like you want to add Rez sickness, having to go out of your way to appease some god or the other, and getting severe skill penalties for getting ambushed by a griefer.

Goblin Squad Member

I'd just point out that a similar system I've used in a game worked pretty well. Sometimes anguish, sometimes thrilling, but never dull.

Goblin Squad Member

You're not really "going out of your way" when the tasks are things you do already. Isn't that the point of playing a game anyways, to be given a task to complete.

Skill penalties can be prevented using a team effort. The idea behind it is to increase community interaction.

Resurrection sickness would be the alternative if you did not have help to be resurrected. This would build on the idea that team work and community are better options then going solo, though going solo is still a very viable playstyle.

Popping into a graveyard and rushing back to your body has been done in so many MMOs and encourages "grave rushing". I think this game is well suited to the Favor system and adds something different.

Goblin Squad Member

Mush I thought I saw some misunderstanding elsewhere supposing the effects of death are permanent. In DR the only real loss other than an orb or taking the starry path were a few ranks from your skills.

It would probably be more paletable were there nothing permanent about memory loss.

Other hand did you see the new add-on being offered on the Kickstarter?

Quote:


$20 - Twice Marked of Pharasma

All characters in Pathfinder Online are marked by Pharasma and are thus able to return from the dead at the soulbinding points. You bear the same mark as all other characters but you have a second, distinctive mark as well. None know why you bear this mark, nor what it may portend in the future, but be sure that Fate has many surprises in store for those who are Twice-Chosen by the Lady of Graves. The bearer of this second Mark will have access to content and mechanical benefits distinct to those who are Twice Marked! You may purchase this Add-On multiple times.

Goblin Squad Member

I mentioned it at the bottom of the post. That's why I reformatted the mechanic, removed permanent death, and touched up on points that had been discussed in the other thread. I wanted people to get a chance to read it to see that there could be more depth to resurrecting then having everyone being chosen by Pharasma.

I'm not completely against having the amnesia wear off over time, but I think the skill loss would be just enough to where you would want someone to prevent or reverse it but not make it necessary to have it done.

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

Skill loss is a terrible thing to do in a game where skills could take a month to train. (In EVE the longest training skills can take over 2 months.) That's definitely a way to get people to rage-quit a game.

Goblin Squad Member

In DR, if you had your body reconstituted you were in a very weakened state. I remember it was difficult just walking out of the temple.

Goblin Squad Member

Skill loss would amount to about an hour worth of training. This would reduce the amount of people from "grave rushing". It would be easy enough to have the skill return over an hour naturally or faster with healing.

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

Sorry, I'm just not a fan.

Goblin Squad Member

I have GM'd for 20+ years. One thing I learned about players is that if they have to do something for their god they have felt more connected to their deity. They felt that their deity was watching them and cared about their actions, this would affect how they role-played for the better. They would act in character what their alignment was based on their faith. Even characters who spurned the gods would get into it based on how the other players played.

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

I don't feel this is a good way to do it.

Goblin Squad Member

In the original blog Ryan Dancey wrote:
a timer will begin to count down giving you a minute or two before anything else happens. If a nearby friend has the necessary magic, you may be restored to life right on the spot without any further drawbacks. If you are alone, or have no companions capable of resurrecting you, you'll have to deal with the fallout

Is that still the intent? Is there still a plan at some point to introduce a 1-2 minute timer during which the character can be recovered, or is the current experience the expected final result (setting aside the inability to heal flagged characters)

Goblin Squad Member

Caldeathe Baequiannia wrote:
In the original blog Ryan Dancey wrote:
a timer will begin to count down giving you a minute or two before anything else happens. If a nearby friend has the necessary magic, you may be restored to life right on the spot without any further drawbacks. If you are alone, or have no companions capable of resurrecting you, you'll have to deal with the fallout
Is that still the intent? Is there still a plan at some point to introduce a 1-2 minute timer during which the character can be recovered, or is the current experience the expected final result (setting aside the inability to heal flagged characters)

When did you switch classes to Necromancer?

Also, you're a bonafide Epic level one because that was the oldest necro post I have ever seen.

Goblin Squad Member

Kyutaru wrote:
Also, you're a bonafide Epic level one because that was the oldest necro post I have ever seen.

Wait till you've met KC...

CEO, Goblinworks

The timer is the bleedout timer. It can be adjusted if the designers think that is a good idea. We have not lengthened it yet because we didn't have the tech to let you opt out and just die already, but you may have seen the start of that feature as a bug in 6.2/2 fixed in 6.3

Goblin Squad Member

Looking at it from both sides....yeah.

There is never enough time to heal a downed friend. The visual looks successful but clearly does not match the server's opinion.

It is very annoying to bleed out slowly when you just want to visit the shrine and get back to business.

Goblin Squad Member

I think it can definitely wait until there is a choice, as long as it's an option once the tech is ready.

Goblin Squad Member

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Yup. I would love to have the chance to heal my downed buddies, but if I have to sit there and wait for a few minutes every time I die to bleed out, I'm willing to wait.

Goblin Squad Member

Would keep people from running straight back in to towers right away as well. Meaningful choice do i let them bleed out and risk them getting a heal or kill them quick and see them run right back.

Goblin Squad Member

True, but that is patching (currently) bad game design with more bad game design. I would rather just wait for the actual big patch that helps both issues along.

I don't think it makes sense to have everyone suffer just because the tower mechanics are god awful.

Goblin Squad Member

Hmmmm....

Button 1: Resurrect in your home settlement.

Button 2: Resurrect at closest shrine but take triple (quintuple?) durability damage.

Goblin Squad Member

Personally I would prefer that you just always spawn at the closest allied town (home, ally's, NPC). It would make the map a lot bigger, it would fix most of the issues I have with tower warfare, and I think it would make trade a lot more important. But I don't think that that is going to happen.

Goblin Squad Member

Gol Tink wrote:
Personally I would prefer that you just always spawn at the closest allied town (home, ally's, NPC). It would make the map a lot bigger, it would fix most of the issues I have with tower warfare, and I think it would make trade a lot more important. But I don't think that that is going to happen.

Agreed Tink.

I think there should be a 'bleed out time' once resurrection is in the game to allow folks a chance to be resurrected or even healed if they havent already bleed out.

If they choose to respawn or if they bleed out, I say get rid of all the shrines in the wilderness and have them respawn at a shrine within one of their nearest allied settlements. (Perhaps an option of which settlement you wish to respawn at?)

Goblinworks Executive Founder

An interesting end state would be making each shrine have an owner and the owner decides who can res there.

TKP shrine would allow middle and high rep, Rotters Hole shrine would allow everybody. Wilderness shrines might vary depending on who controls them.

Each time you can choose one of your threaded shrines or the nearest one that allows you.

Goblin Squad Member

Gol Tink wrote:
Personally I would prefer that you just always spawn at the closest allied town (home, ally's, NPC).

I'd be fine with a slight variation of this that let folks spawn at any shrine in any allied hex, including currently held Tower hexes.

Goblin Squad Member

Samllholdings and basecamps should be allowed spawns and thus become a focal point for removing a hostile force. Much like the often alluded to siege camps will eventually function.

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:
Gol Tink wrote:
Personally I would prefer that you just always spawn at the closest allied town (home, ally's, NPC).
I'd be fine with a slight variation of this that let folks spawn at any shrine in any allied hex, including currently held Tower hexes.

I'm not sure I agree with *that* much of a defenders advantage. Personally I think that the defender should always have the advantage in a fight, but one side spawning right on top of a tower, and the other side spawning half way across the map, seems a bit extreme.

One side spawning half way across the map, and the other side spawning a few hexes away is a bit more tenable, in my books.

Quote:
Samllholdings and basecamps should be allowed spawns and thus become a focal point for removing a hostile force. Much like the often alluded to siege camps will eventually function.

That depends on being able to destroy them. It would also have strange interactions with the ongoing spawn camping discussions to make spawn points active points of contention. I agree that there should be a plonkable spawn point, or a mobile one, but I don't think we have the technology in place to support it.

Goblin Squad Member

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Nihimon wrote:
... including currently held Tower hexes.

I meant currently held Towers in other hexes. I don't think anyone should ever respawn in the same hex they died in.

Goblin Squad Member

In an immediate sense I would agree Tink, but as a caveat I would say none of the solutions are currently acceptable at half measure. Which makes it an annoying all or nothing endeavor. It won't really matter until you can attack structures anyways, so I wouldn't be surprised if those features came hand in hand.

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:
Nihimon wrote:
... including currently held Tower hexes.
I meant currently held Towers in other hexes. I don't think anyone should ever respawn in the same hex they died in.

Oh, in that case, yeah. That makes building a beachhead for further tower attacks really important as well.

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