Alchemist: Explosive Missile

[Cid Ayrbourne]

Explosive Missile: As a standard action, the alchemist can
infuse a single arrow, crossbow bolt, or one-handed firearm
bullet with the power of his bomb, load the ammunition,
and shoot the ranged weapon. He must be proficient with
the weapon in order to accomplish this. When the infused
ammunition hits its target, it deals damage normally and
detonates as if the alchemist had thrown the bomb at the
target. If the explosive missile misses, it does not detonate.
An alchemist must be at least 4th level before selecting
this discovery.

I understand, and approve, of this particular discovery. Makes me think of the rifled grenades used in World War II, which I always thought was a great idea for it's time.

But it makes me wonder...

Why only one-handed firearms? It certainly can't be for range, since bows and crossbows have a much higher range. And as for damage, the delivery system's damage is fairly negligible compared to the bomb itself, so...

Why not two-handed firearms?

[Matt Stich]

You need one hand to imbue the explosive missile

[John Templeton]

Given bows need two hands your hand free argument is invalid, the issue I believe is loading time but then you counter with heavy crossbows. Also, I believe single and double handed firearms still use the same bullets.

So I think we have a misprint or something like it. I think the intent is for it to be used with range weapons that can e loaded in as a standard action or less.

[Cid Ayrbourne]

I was hoping I would get a bit more feedback and/or input on this.

[Talonhawke]

At this time check with your GM or if you are GM make a house call.

The book has several issues with things that may end up being clarified in the errata as time goes on so with luck it'll at least get explained.

I see no reason to disallow the ability this way as the overall damage isn't going up by much.

[Lurk3r]

Maybe they thought it would be too good? Most of the 2 handed firearms deal extra damage and have a longer range increment than the 1 handers.

EDIT Erm... didn't see Talonhawke's post. Well, the range is going up right? Heh heh?

[Talonhawke]

Best simple Heavy crossbow 120ft
Best martial Longbow 110ft
Best firearm Double hackbut 50ft

This assumes no advanced fire arms. The range actually gets worse the more profiency you need to fire the weapon so range can't be the issue.

[blackbloodtroll]

Are there ways to fire a two handed firearm with one hand?

[Talonhawke]

Not needed there are no ways to fire a Longbow with one hand.

[blackbloodtroll]

Could you use this ability several times, not fire them, then full attack later?

[Talonhawke]

The ability is to imbue load and shoot as a standard action so i would say no.

[Cid Ayrbourne]

Talonhawke wrote:

At this time check with your GM or if you are GM make a house call.

The book has several issues with things that may end up being clarified in the errata as time goes on so with luck it'll at least get explained.

I see no reason to disallow the ability this way as the overall damage isn't going up by much.

See, that's just it. I'm a GM who, one of my players was interested in a more bomb oriented Alchemist (which, frankly, I was surprised there isn't one). We were working on a couple of Archetypes, Grenadier and Mad Bomber.

The Grenadier is sort of a Gunslinger/Alchemist, focusing on bombs and guns. This discover seems perfect for this idea, but it seems odd it specifically excludes 2-hand firearms. Especially, with the idea of the rifled grenade from WWII.

[w1z4rdh4v0k]

Ok I don't want to hijack this thread but a question is one I would like to ask... According to explosive missile I can infuse the power of his bombs my question is will this take up how many bombs he can create and throw per day or is this separate from that.....

[Talonhawke]

Uses one of your bombs per day for each use.

[w1z4rdh4v0k]

Thank you Talon...very useful will let my DM know tomorrow that I can if I use the discovery...first time playing an Alchy

[blackbloodtroll]

An alchemist can gain an extra arm, maybe that would make longbows and two-handed guns available?

[Kyrie Ebonblade]

I can get why you don't want this applying to scatter weapons (Blunderbuss, Shotguns, Dragon Pistol) but given that you have to use 2 hands for bows (and Xbows) it doesn't make sense to apply it to deny it to 2handed firearms. Deny it to scatter attacks.. absolutely.

Deny it from a channeling it into a bullet that is largely the same as the one you're going to stuff down the barrel of a pistol? Not so much.

[Theodoxus]

Seems to me, the availability for bow users to this discovery but not two-handed gunners, is, bow users touch their ammunition prior to releasing. You aren't grabbing your bullet, infusing it with a bomb, stuffing it down the barrel, lining up your shot and firing it as a standard action.

A bow user on the other hand, is. It's stretching the imagination that allowing this as a standard action on a heavy crossbow is ok. But on a rifle? Leave me some verisimilitude, please.

[Javaed]

In my mind, this discovery is just poorly written. With this feat it is ok to load and fire a heavy crossbow as a standard action, when normally just the action of loading the weapon would be a full round action. Loading and firing a musket requires the same kind of action economy as the heavy crossbow, but is not allowed. Splashing a level of Musket Master would allow you to load the musket as a standard action, but it still isn't legal to fire. And what about rifles? Those only take a move action to load and fire.

If I wanted to be cheesy I could rules-lawyer a bit thanks to the punctuation of the statement. Pistols and Muskets use the same ammo, so I could infuse a pistol bullet, load it in my musket and then fire my musket. The discovery makes a list of all the actions I may make, but only restricts the type of ammunition used, not the type of weapon. =P

I also would like to know if Explosive Missile should interact with Fast Bombs. You can use it to dual-wield bombs, and even toss in extra attacks from buffs like Haste or Ki Point expenditure. Effectively, this discovery makes it a free action to create a bomb, and you could easily throw 4-6 bombs per round as early as level 8. With that in mind, why shouldn't you be able to fire off 2 Explosive Arrows in a round?

Next we could bring in the Delayed Bomb effect. What if an 8th level alchemist infuses 3 pieces of ammo with the Delayed effect, then starts combat? I'd have up to 5 rounds before that first piece of ammo exploded. Could I rapid shot all three on a single round, assuming I specified that they would last the correct number of rounds?

[Aleguzzler]

What about a blowgun?

[LuniasM]

Explosive Missile gives your bomb some extra damage and an extended range. The balancing factors are the standard action and targeting normal AC. 2H firearms unbalance this by targeting touch AC out to 40' (80' with Advanced Firearms), but 1H firearms cap out at 20'. Allowing 1H firearms is a compromise - sure, you can target Touch AC, but you will give up the benefit of a longer range.

[Aleguzzler]

Feat does not state it can be used with a dart/blowgun. Wondering if this is an oversight or might their be a reason to exclude darts here?

[Exguardi]

Technically bows can target touch AC at very long range with Explosive Missile if you use one of the alchemical arrows that targets touch AC. Dye arrows and Tanglefoot arrows (or something like that).

My alchemist has used this trick before to bomb an enemy spellcaster from the other side of a large building with Black Tentacles in the way. Good times.

[Annie Oakleaf]

Yeah, this doesn't make much sense since with rapid reload and cartridges you can load a musket as a move action. I'm going to have to see how the locals feel about this.