I'm sure this would have had to have had some errata, but I just noticed that the Core Rulebook, in the polymorph rules, states that polymorph spells grant a +20 bonus to disguise checks.
However, under the description of the disguise skill, it states that the bonus is +10.
For now, I'm playing it as +10, but was there some official errata on this one?
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Yes. Sadly, it WAS errata'd to +10. I'm of the opinion that transmutations, reflecting actual physical change, should grant a higher bonus than illusion effects, but it seems the game's developers disagree with me. :(
I can actually see where +20 would be OP.
I figure that appearance is only a part of disguise, and that knowledge of your mark(s) makes up the rest. Also, it's said that something like 90% of our communication (humans) is non-verbal.
So, if I alter self into a bugbear, but don't have any knowledge of goblinoid society, bugbear culture, or anything else that would make me "fit in," then should I really get +20?
I do agree with you, however, that in general, transmutation effects should grant a higher disguise bonus than illusion effects.
I can actually see where +20 would be OP.
I figure that appearance is only a part of disguise, and that knowledge of your mark(s) makes up the rest. Also, it's said that something like 90% of our communication (humans) is non-verbal.
So, if I alter self into a bugbear, but don't have any knowledge of goblinoid society, bugbear culture, or anything else that would make me "fit in," then should I really get +20?
I do agree with you, however, that in general, transmutation effects should grant a higher disguise bonus than illusion effects.
Shouldn't knowledge of cultural norms and mannerisms be covered under knowledge, and not disguise though?
As long as you don't disguise yourself as a PARTICULAR bugbear you're fine ;)
RD, on the one hand, I'm not even sure which knowledge skill would cover that. I always thought dungeon erring (frickin iPhone spell check), was the monster info grab bag, but my group told me last night that it wasn't.
On the other hand, we'd start getting into some clunky mechanics if we started rolling knowledge checks into every disguise check.
What I'm saying is that I think that the aforementioned "bugbear cultural knowledge," or at least the ability to fake it, to some extent, comes from having ranks in disguise. At some point, one's actions would almost certainly necessitate a bluff check, but lets consider the following scenario:
A 1st level caster (alter self is 1st level, iirc) casts alter self and walks into a bad place like Cheliax (sp?) or a drow city. Let's call him "Lemmicus.".
With no ranks in disguise, should a simple altering of his physical form grant him a +20 on disguise? What about the guards watching him completely bypass the cultural norms, like walking slowly in the center of the street, proudly, as opposed to sticking to the sides, head down, and moving quickly?
Simply, I think that disguise is more than just how your physical body looks; it's also how you dress, walk, act, speak, mannerisms, etc.
Plus, I can see +20 from a 1st level spell wrecking PCs if an enemy assassin NPC could have the same.
Ashenfall, your scenarios would certainly make him stand out as an eccentric, or a social deviant, but not necessarily as a non-drow/Chelaxian.
"These aren't the two hobbits you're looking for."
*waves hand in guard's face*
Here's the way I understand the alter self spell. Am I playing this incorrectly?
Will the wizard casts alter self to change his form into that of a drow. His form is actually changed, so there is no disguise check needed to pass himself off as a drow, because physically that is what he now is.
Detect magic and a spellcraft check would be needed to see that he isn't a drow.
However, if he is trying to impersonate a specific drow, a disguise check would be needed with all the usual modifiers.
No, you're correct; I'm simply extrapolating from my druid's thousand faces ability, plus his glamered armor, plus his disguise skill.
RD thinks that alter self should give +20 to disguise checks, and I think +10 is balanced.
As for your drow scenario, IMO, a disguise check might be needed even if Will simply interacts with any drow; let alone trying to act like a specific drow.
Opinions will vary on this.
RD thinks that alter self should give +20 to disguise checks, and I think +10 is balanced.
Just to be clear, I never said that. I merely stated that I thought the bonus for transmutation-based disguises should be higher than illusion-based disguises (since they are more "real").
Ah, scuze. In the context, it seemed like you were advocating for the +20.