I'm not really used to using or being targeted by spells since most of the time mages are rare in our games.
But what happens is this : Me and my group were battling on a floating island and enemies destroyed the bridge infront of us to prevent us from leaving it so we were stuck infront of a cliff that falling off would lead to certain doom and behind us there was a Rakshasa chasing us. So we got into a fight with it since we had no way of avoiding it, except commiting suicide... Several round passed and we realised on all of us I was the only one actually damaging it with my Sacred Long bow and all my friend were either unconcious or near death and on the Rakshasa turn he used suggestion on me and I failed my roll and asked me to throw my bow off the edge of the island and I had no other weapon that would be of any used against it. So I told my DM that my character cannot do that since doing so would literally means the death of all my party but he pretended that it was not directly harming anyone and that I HAD to do it. So we got in a debate about it and seeing that the other player were getting fed up with it I just went along with it and threw it off the edge and well as obvious as it is...we all died.
So my question is this : Was I right or was I wrong in telling my Dm that it wouldn't work?
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Yes, giving up your only effective weapon against an enemy you are currently in combat with is "obviously harmful". Suggestion would not have worked.
Thanks for the quick reply, and it's as I thought...now to find a way to make him realise it wouldn't have work...Though what is done is done and I doubt he'll want to replay the whole battle. =/
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If the Raksasha had said with the force of a suggestion, "Throw your bow over the side and I will let you all live", then you would have been screwed. He's making a very reasonable, believable suggestion. If all he said was "Throw your bow off the side". That's not reasonable and would be considered suicidal. I wouldn't make a suggestion so blunt and poorly worded.
"Drop the bow off the side and we'll let you live" is a VERY reasonable use of the suggestion spell (even if you would otherwise know the rakasha is lying) , since the dropping of the bow is a few steps removed from suicide, its definitely within the DM's perview: he decides what reasonable suggestions are.
You missed a save. Bad things happen. This is one of those bad things.
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The act itself was in no way harmful, and was merely dropping a weapon.
Ultimately it would result in loss of life, but divorced from all context there is nothing wrong with that as a Suggestion.
In fact, it is a common use for the spell including asking spell casters to drop their spell component pouches.
Yes but wouldn't the mage still be able to flee or fight with something else? In our situation fleeing was impossible since the Rakshasa was in the way and I had no other weapon of use =/
In his exact words : ''Take your bow and throw it off the edge now!''
He didn't say that we would live or be spared...
The act itself was in no way harmful,
It does not need to be directly harmful in my opinion.*
Indirectly but immediately harmful suffices.
Suggestion does not make the victim stupid or dominated or commanded. There must be some part that could reasonably think the suggestion is a good idea. throwing your weapon while in combat is never a good idea.
Surrendering with promise of lifes being spared .... is sth. different. MAYBE. As the OP said the rakshasa promised nothing. Even if that had be the case, the character had no reason to assume this chaotic evil monster wasn't lying. As said, suggestion does not turn off the brain of the victim.
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Another example: Say you suggest (via the spell) to someone to stand on railroad tracks. Do you believe he has to remain standing even if ten minutes later a train apoproaches with full speed? No. Standing on the railroad tracks itself is not harmful. Either way, the suggestion will end once its clear that the act leads to harm.
Also an other question I'm asking myself is what DD is a Rashaka's suggestion? I don't own the books so I can't check but I rolled a total of 18...I just thought that it was odd that I failed that too...
Also an other question I'm asking myself is what DD is a Rashaka's suggestion? I don't own the books so I can't check but I rolled a total of 18...I just thought that it was odd that I failed that too...
DC 16 for a common rakshasa. It could have had class levels, extra HD, higher attributes or some template though.
DC 16 for a common rakshasa. It could have had class levels, extra HD, higher attributes or some template though.
Oh ok, I guess it did had some class level, it was using two-weapon figthing with kukries and it could also used cure critical wounds. I still believe it was a weird encounter since well our summoner is the higher leveled character and he's level 7 I believe, and aren't those monster like CR 14ish?
*Edit* I just felt like it was a '' You die now yes? '' scenario heh
It does sound like a messed up scenario where the DM might have been trying to kill you. Sending a Rakshasa at a group that is too low level is a very deadly encounter. I'm surprised you didn't have someone with spells that bypass DR or buff spells like versatile weapon and align weapon. That allows you to get penetrate DR like the Rakshasa's.
Suggestion does not make the victim stupid or dominated or commanded. There must be some part that could reasonably think the suggestion is a good idea. throwing your weapon while in combat is never a good idea.
It can make the victim pretty stupid. I think the given example is "hey, that acid is water, why don't you try hopping in?"
It does sound like a messed up scenario where the DM might have been trying to kill you. Sending a Rakshasa at a group that is too low level is a very deadly encounter. I'm surprised you didn't have someone with spells that bypass DR or buff spells like versatile weapon and align weapon. That allows you to get penetrate DR like the Rakshasa's.
Our team consited of 1 Barbarian ( dead during the previous encounter against evil elves /nps ) 1 Inquisitor ( Me / Out of spell from fighting these evil elven warriors * I had to constantly heal my party ) 1 Knigth ( horseless due to being on a floating island that the bridge to get there was too weak for it's weight and injured from said elven battle ) 1 alchemist ( that althought was fully healed instantly died from a lightning bolt to the face by the Rakshasa in the first round *the Rakshasa won initiative* ) 1 Drow ranger ( Was unconcious from the fight with the elves /npc ) and 1 summoner ( with crappy stats that needed to rely on his Eidolon but got Banished on the 3 turn by the Rakshasa )
We wanted to retreat from the island after seeing the elves free the Rakshasa from a Magical prison since we had so much trouble fighting 6 of them ( heck I got hit by one of them and a single blow were rarely dealing less than 25 damages, Especially considering each one of them need at least 25 to attack for a hit ) we knew we were out matched and needed to rethink our strategie but when we got to the bridge the elves had destroyed it. Which is an other thing I said to my party that it was a pretty stupid move from the elves since it was the only way in and out of the place.Anyway, long story short we were already beaten up and out of pretty much out of everything. Oh and the island had crystals that we needed to throw a check to cast spells or be absorbed by them =_= so yeah I felt we were just lambs in a slaughter house.
* Edit *
I know I may sound like a whiny brat but I dunno I felt like we weren't meant to win...what are your thoughts? =/
It can make the victim pretty stupid. I think the given example is "hey, that acid is water, why don't you try hopping in?"
Suggestion does not makes the target think that acid is water.
It can make the victim pretty stupid. I think the given example is "hey, that acid is water, why don't you try hopping in?"
The rule of the spell doesn't say that the person become oblivious to it's surrounding, throwing acid in his face would definately not pass that I'm pretty sure of it. It's literaly causing you direct harm.
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I prefer to word it as a suggestion than a command - starting the sentence with "I suggest" and using an Alan Rickman sneer works wonders :-)
Such as the aforementioned "You have one chance to save your life, Potter and that of your miserable companions. I suggest you throw your wand over the edge - now!"
Wand? I mean bow!
My favourite example of the power of the spell is, "I suggest you jump off the roof (ten stories up). You'll be fine, the ground is soft today."
My favourite example of the power of the spell is, "I suggest you jump off the roof (ten stories up). You'll be fine, the ground is soft today."
This won't work. The spell does not make the target completely stupid.
The game master is the final arbiter of what happens. You chose the incorrect time to argue with the GM. It is almost always better to wait until later, after the combat or session, to put forth a complaint. The only reason I say this is because when challenged, most people stop listening and stick to their guns. This is a bad idea when dealing with someone who is, more or less, "god". Asking for a simple rules verification is great: "hey, that doesn't sound like a very believable suggestion. My character knows that if he does what he is told, he and his friends would die. Would I be right to refuse?" If your GM sticks to his guns, then go along with it and bring it up after the BBEG eats your face.
Now, I think your GM made a bad call. I agree that he should have made a more creative and believable suggestion, sometimes we, as GMs misspeak. With that in mind, I would have allowed another save. To be honest, it sounds like your gm was hitting the reset button. He was out to kill the party and start fresh.
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* Edit *
I know I may sound like a whiny brat but I dunno I felt like we weren't meant to win...what are...
CpnDave... I don't think you were meant to win this fight. So the question we all want to know is what happened next? Did you start a new campaign? Did your DM'S suddenly decide he didn't feel like DMing anymore? Just curious.
Reebo
I've asked my friend over Msn to give me the description of the spell and it says this : '' The suggestion must be worded in such a manner as to make the activity sound reasonable. Asking the creature to do some obviously harmful act automatically negates the effect of the spell. ''
Taking our only way of defence and mindlessly throwing it off the edge was in no way reasonable especially asked the way the DM worded his ''suggestive'' phrase...If he at least said '' Drop your bow on the ground '' or something like that I wouldn't have had such an issue with it since I could have just picked it up the next round. It would be silly, but more reasonable...
I've asked my friend over Msn to give me the description of the spell
You know about this, right?
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funnily enough your DM was wrong on 2 accounts.
1st one is obvious. The spell says "Asking the creature to do some obviously harmful act automatically negates the effect of the spell."
Throwing aside your only weapon when there is no escape, no chance to reason with the evil aligned outsider or escape is obviously harmful to your character. Therefor the spell fails.
2nd is "The suggestion must be worded in such a manner as to make the activity sound reasonable."
Your DMs wording of the spell did not do this. Therefor the spell fails.
If you want your DM to realize how wrong he was just send him to this thread. I am sure he will get the picture.
For reference: Suggestion
I disagree that it's a "obviously harmful" clause. It is a perfectly reasonable suggestion and one that should work if you failed the save. There are considerably more nasty suggestions, with more obvious hazardous consequences, that are fine to use with suggestion.
I think your GM played it perfectly fine.
CpnDave... I don't think you were meant to win this fight. So the question we all want to know is what happened next? Did you start a new campaign? Did your DM'S suddenly decide he didn't feel like DMing anymore? Just curious.
ReeboThe game ended on the spot , other party member complained a bit but eventually said '' alright, we'll roll new character for the next game '' which they did the rest of the session, me being pretty ...unpleased about it I said I'd do it over the course of this week and just chatted with my friend helping him out with his character to ''restore the mood of losing a character this abrubtly ''.
The Dm said we'd at least be at the same level we were...which defeat the purpose of starting it fresh no?Also playing the same quests/world but as another group hired by the same King to deal with these elves ( If I gathered that correctly... )
I'm new-ish to this group ( Invited by a friend, with about 5 games with them ) and my previous Dm was harsh but fair. I never had to actually go out and argue with him. But he moved away and well aside from my friend my last group stopped playing altogether. So yeah I'm not used to my new dm yet...
My friend told me to stick around ( I admit the other games were good and entertaining ) however I dread of a new ''reset''
Probably going to try rolling a sorcerer. I dunno...
@Sigil87: having no obvious means of escape or way of coping with the monster does not invalidate the spell; and ''Take your bow and throw it off the edge now!'' is - I think - a very reasonable sounding instruction; no request to bend the laws of the universe.
As a player, fearing your character will die is of course a powerful incentive to act in all manner of ways - but the GM is being perfectly within the confines of the game. And who knows, he might be looking to get a particular new story arc set up. Just go with the story, characters die, or not.
You know about this, right?
I do now and thank you for that :)
@Sigil87: having no obvious means of escape or way of coping with the monster does not invalidate the spell; and ''Take your bow and throw it off the edge now!'' is - I think - a very reasonable sounding instruction; no request to bend the laws of the universe.
The spell discription does not say anything about "laws of the universe". Throwing away your weapon while in combat is unreasonable.
And who knows, he might be looking to get a particular new story arc set up. Just go with the story, characters die, or not.
Actually no I just got comfirmation that we are going to continue with the same story arc and quests. Also as spell goes, which I'm not really knowlegeable in, could one of my ( still alive ) party members tried to talk me out of it?
* Edits *
Also with Sigil87 link it says the duration the spell is Clvl/hour or until completed could my character just thought '' okay but after I'm done with you ( He was known to do only what he felt like doing probably doesn't matter but I'm just asking ) or his ''Now'' was too precise?
Nope not really although if one of them grabbed part of the bow the request would shift from non harmful to throwing your allies off the island which most people would agree is pretty iffy =P
Alright thanks for the info.
Shouldn't Rahkshasha roll for concentration also near all those spell absorbing shards?
It did, never failed once. I figured it had high Arcana, unlike my last DM this one hides every roll he makes ( which I don't mind he's the DM he's allowed to do that ) so I don't really know what he was rolling.
unlike my last DM this one hides every roll he makes
In my experience thats a big flashing warning sign.
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Well I usually hide my rolls also, because the fact is that you don't need to know if creature failed on some stuff or what not, but at same time it grants me the chance to improvize, as in reduce the killing blows or give PCs chance to do something.
Open dice is always open dice, as DM/GM you can't change that outcome.
Still... he kinda probably overkilled your party it seems. If its 1 time thing, maybe he tried to give a lesson to someone, but you just said he is new, so it's bad way to go with esspecially with new players around you.
Open dice is always open dice, as DM/GM you can't change that outcome.
Nor should you. If you want situation to have a certain outcome, be honest about it and do not pretend the dice made the decision.
maybe he tried to give a lesson to someone, but you just said he is new, so it's bad way to go with esspecially with new players around you.
Well he did complained about the Alchemist Eidolon alot, and I'm new to their group, he's their Dm of choice since I don't know when. Also I should point out that he created homebrew arrows that were acting like Ranged touched attacks which told us we could buy at that weird suspicious RE4-like merchant ( you know the guy ) I looked at the thing and asked him if I was really allowed to buy these arrow and he said yes ( 10 of these for 200 gold ) so I bought 100, burning pretty much all my savings on it. Well on my 5th arrow against his elven lieutnant which I was hitting pretty much on a 3 on my die, he said : '' These are too powerful I'm taking them away'' I didn't want to argue there since I realised they were and at least asked for a refund, at first he said no but I managed to convinced him over the Lunch break....so I guess I might also be the target of his wipe because I wasn't as docile as the other player...
He killed you all on purpose.
Mind you, as far as I'm concerned the use of suggestion was valid: a better wording would have been nice on the DM's part, but the act in itself was not immediately harmful. My point is that anything the enemy would suggest in combat would result in harmful events, otherwise the enemy would not have suggested it.
The problem is that he was obviously going to kill you with this move: a rakshasa has a DC of 16 on its suggestion, you rolled 18. This probably amounted at least to 22, likely quite a bit more. You would need a healty dose of sorcerer level and templates for the rakshasa to get to such an high DC: his CR would skyrocket, and even if your party is larger than average, you had almost no resources left, making you weaker that the average 4-person party. His CR would be so high that I can't even bother to do the calculations, since your DM probably did not do it too!!
Consider the alchemist if you need ulterior proofs: a ligthning bolt deals on average 24,5 points of damage (reflex 16 to half). Did he really died from that kind of damage?
IF your DM is capable he killed you (this could be a hook, though, maybe he wanted you all resurrected to start a new arc). Otherwise it was due to incompetence.
Mind you, as far as I'm concerned the use of suggestion was valid: a better wording would have been nice on the DM's part, but the act in itself was not immediately harmful. My point is that anything the enemy would suggest in combat would result in harmful events, otherwise the enemy would not have suggested it.
Which is why (in my eyes) suggestion is not really a combat spell. Its nice to convince the prison guard to go home and check on the wife though. ;)
He killed you all on purpose.
Mind you, as far as I'm concerned the use of suggestion was valid: a better wording would have been nice on the DM's part, but the act in itself was not immediately harmful. My point is that anything the enemy would suggest in combat would result in harmful events, otherwise the enemy would not have suggested it.
The problem is that he was obviously going to kill you with this move: a rakshasa has a DC of 16 on its suggestion, you rolled 18. This probably amounted at least to 22, likely quite a bit more. You would need a healty dose of sorcerer level and templates for the rakshasa to get to such an high DC: his CR would skyrocket, and even if your party is larger than average, you had almost no resources left, making you weaker that the average 4-person party. His CR would be so high that I can't even bother to do the calculations, since your DM probably did not do it too!!
Consider the alchemist if you need ulterior proofs: a ligthning bolt deals on average 24,5 points of damage (reflex 16 to half). Did he really died from that kind of damage?IF your DM is capable he killed you (this could be a hook, though, maybe he wanted you all resurrected to start a new arc). Otherwise it was due to incompetence.
Like I said I'm not knowlegeable with magic spells but I just thought that it was kind of asking me to drop my weapon so I could be executed...The situation seems really debatable but I suppose at this moment the deed has been done and will not be replayed
I rolled a 8 with my will bonus accumulating to a total of 18 so I supposed with some spell focus feats or a little bit more wisdom or intelligence ( whichever the creature uses ) it would have been higher, I have no idea on how he built his Rakshasa.
If I remember correctly the alchemist failed his reflex save and got something around 40-ish damage and was actually the lowest leveled character of us all ( lvl 5 or early 6 ) and he rolled poor Hit dices every levels his highes was a 5 or 6 with something around +2 con bonus ( I don't really know much about their character sorry ) and the DM is using the -10 = death rule so the player just said : '' well I'm dead '' and tipped over his character. ( using minis )
And ressurection was almost impossible in his game, the first death ( the summoner ) cost us 200 000 po. Which was pretty much all our money combined. We even had to sell good loot for that. The lesser type of ressurection was unavailable everywhere.
So Incompetence? Bored of the group? Felt like Restarting over? I dunno I suppose I should discuss that with the Dm. If we don't start arguing over something again heh.
* Edit * for my +5 additionnal will I had a amulet that gave me +3 and a ring that gave me +2. I figured I should point it out. For the rest of my gear I could share if you wish it wasn't much though ( by the way, I don't think you actually CAN use items that give the same kind of buff like two ring of protection is impossible right? This Dm said it was ok though )
*Edit number 2 *
Also wanted to point that I'm new to pathfinder and mostly used to AD&D rules and a few of the 3.5 so I'm sorry about my lack of knowledge on the matter *
I am going to assume that you and your party did not walk yourselves into this situation. I've seen party wipes because PCs thought they were invincible/misunderstood or ignored warning signs. However, if you played it right..
Your DM had ulterior motives or does not understand how to create encounters. Regardless of any spell description arguments, you guys were NOT going to win that fight. Beat up/dead part members from a previous fight, you come to fight an enemy with a CR high above your EPL? I understand boss fights are supposed to be at the end of a day when you have less resources, but that is simply ridiculous.
As for the Suggestion... All this hooha about "it's not harmful" is kinda silly. What if I used the spell and said to take five steps back? And what if you were three steps and facing away from a cliff? Of course it's harmful. The character still knows what is and isn't harmful, otherwise the clause is essentially useless, as it would be far too easy to circumvent it. Just because the wording by itself can seem harmless (drop X item), context is incredibly important here. In a fight where you have realized you are the only threat to an enemy who is tearing your party apart, only because you have a special weapon, dropping that weapon off of a cliff is very much signing a death warrant. Harmful. Obviously.
However, I also think the "Drop the weapon, and you get to live." argument -is- valid. My group plays by the motto of, "Our characters are much better at what they do than us, so stuff we say sometimes has to be translated." (i.e. our rogue who is a straight up badass is played by someone who doesn't talk in-character very well, so we assume the character itself doesn't stumble over his words and has so many disconnected thoughts). Despite this, the situation being a spell with so much importance placed on wording, even we would rule that whatever was said has to be stuck to, word for word.
Regardless of whether suggestion would be able to force your character to throw away your bow or not, I think it's pretty clear that your DM simply wanted to kill your party.
Since the Rakshasa was able to banish the eidolon, it must have at least had access to dismissal (unless I'm forgetting something), which would mean an additional 3 (or more) sorcerer levels for a CR of 13. Against an already-weakened CR 7 party, this should virtually always be a TPK beyond extreme luck or deus ex machina.
Since your DM apparently wants to continue playing the same campaign, at the same character levels, I have no idea why he'd go out of his way to destroy your party. By the sound of it, I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be a particularly good idea to ask him.