Is there one of these out there even if its a home brew?
If it was me I would:
Drop throw anything.
Reduce the bomb damage.
Remove poison use.
Grant:
Gunsmith, a battered gun and amatuer gunslinger at first level.
Allow some deeds to be taken as discoveries but at alchemist level - 4 being the effective gunslinger level.
Allow the taking of extra grit as a discovery.
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If it was me I would:
Drop throw anything.
Reduce the bomb damage.
Remove poison use.Grant:
Gunsmith, a battered gun and amatuer gunslinger at first level.
Allow some deeds to be taken as discoveries but at alchemist level - 4 being the effective gunslinger level.
Allow the taking of extra grit as a discovery.
i might even sac the -4.
however i'd let someone use the grenader archetype, and swap throw anything for the amateur gunslinger feat.
or just flat out replace bombs with grit points=# of bombs you'd normally have. but that might be too powerful
Yeah I wouldn't give more grit points than what a gunslinger would be able to have.
I wouldn't drop bombs or throw anything.
IF you are making an alchemist-gunner, I'd say the biggest reason is to explode stuff. But I would drop the bombs to d4s.
I'd drop brew potion over the other one. If the player really wants it, he can get it again later, easily.
Poison use would also go, as well as immunity. At third level you gain possibly the amateur gunslinger feat with a slight edit - using Int instead of wis for the recharge. You also can recharge grit with bombs as well as fire arms.
You function as a gunslinger -3 for the purposes of deeds after you get amateur.
Somewhere along the line you gain the ability to use an alchemical bomb instead of a normal bullet. This allows you to fire bombs at a greater distance, but you don't gain the guns damage dice added. You might get the critical added though, and it uses one bomb to do this.
There is a discovery that charges a shot with the bomb ability Avux (sorry but I don't know the ASCII code to make that letter).
Dropping Brew potion would work, but I think taking the poison immunity would be a bit much -- guns really aren't that great, and no one else is giving up that much for the use of them. Having deeds work as discoveries would be a better method in my opinion as the alchemist shouldn't easily or freely get all the deeds of the gunslinger (after all that is his big thing).
Again I also don't think it's a good idea to give the alchemist anywhere near as many grit points as the gunslinger receives either as that's his special field and the alchemist is still retaining all his big toys (bombs even with reduced damage, mutagens, and extracts are all pretty wow in and of themselves).
Amateur gunslinger gives you 1 grit point. Then you can regain a number of grit points per day based on your wisdom.
In order to avoid MAD, this is changed to int.
Amateur gunslinger gives you 1 grit point. Then you can regain a number of grit points per day based on your wisdom.
In order to avoid MAD, this is changed to int.
Ah I see now, meh I don't mind some MAD but that change wouldn't be the worse thing to ever happen I guess.
Dropping the mutagen in and of itself would mean little since it is available as a discovery now. That is part of the reason I didn't bother with it.
They would still need to spend a limited resource on it.
I'd just say they couldn't take it, and chalk it up to balance.
There are some gunslinging discoveries in UC. What about a bomb-firing or potion-firing gun, like the spell-firing gun of the Spellslinger?
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actually, i'm all for an alchemist archetype that does away with that bloody mutagen
Using the bloody mutagen to gain +dex and then wielding a pistol alone is one of the better combo's the Alchemist can use. It sure beats the low level grits.
What you can't use with guns is Poison Use. If you don't use poisons, there's no real need for Poison Resistance or Immunity. The bombs are awesome combination, especially with Explosive Missile.
I don't know quick clear is quite nice (almost mandatory in my opinion).
I don't know quick clear is quite nice (almost mandatory in my opinion).
Only if you wish to be effective.
So drop the ability to gain deeds, and you just get the amateur gunslinger feat, modded to use int instead.
I would say you count as gunslinger for the purposes of the gunsmithing feat, and upgrading your initial firearm.
I'm still not liking giving as much grit as a gunslinger will have -- unless you still mean the recharging with int instead of wis instead of a full switch.
I swear there's an actual one of these somewhere...
I'm still not liking giving as much grit as a gunslinger will have -- unless you still mean the recharging with int instead of wis instead of a full switch.
It still is the feat.
Amateur Gunslinger (Combat)
Although you are not a gunslinger, you have and can use grit.
Prerequisite: You have no levels in a class that has the grit class feature.
Benefit: You gain a small amount of grit and the ability to perform a single 1st-level deed from the gunslinger deed class feature. At the start of the day, you gain 1 grit point, though throughout the day you can gain grit points up to a maximum of your Wisdom modifier (minimum 1). You can regain grit using the rules for the gunslinger’s grit class feature (see page 9). You can spend this grit to perform the 1st-level deed you chose upon taking this feat, and any other deed you have gained through feats or magic items.
Special: If you gain levels in a class that grants the grit class feature, you can immediately trade this feat for the Extra Grit feat.
Still the feat, just replace wis with int.
Alright I thought that was what you still meant but, I don't know must be tired.
Maybe its cause my current gunslinger got hit by a lighting bolt from the sky.
Potionslinger (or some other cool name)
Ready, Steady, Fire
The alchemist gains the Exotic Weapon Proficiency (firearms) feat. This replaces Throw Anything.
Injection Gun (Su)
At 2nd level, an alchemist with the Infusion discovery can get the Gunsmithing feat as a bonus feat, and a battered gun that he can modify to fire special glass projectiles containing extracts. The projectile has a thin silver point which causes half the damage of a normal bullet and also injects the extract to the victim. This firearm can't fire normal bullets or explosive bullets (as with the Explosive Missile discovery) and is useless in the hands of others. The alchemist can't use Touch Injection or Mutagenic Touch with the gun.
The gun’s enhancement bonus (if any) is a bonus to the spell’s saving throw DCs. If the injection gun misfires, it gains the broken condition. If the injection gun already has the broken condition, the gun explodes. When a gun explodes, it lets loose a blast of force, or if the extract charged in the bullet has the acid, cold, electricity, or sonic descriptor, it deals that type of energy damage instead. In the case of spells with multiple descriptors, roll randomly among the descriptors to determine the type of damage dealt by the blast. The blast is centered on a single intersection within the alchemist’s space (alchemist’s choice) and deals 1d6 points of the appropriate energy damage or force damage per level of the formula inside. Any creature within the blast other than the alchemist can make a Reflex saving throw to halve the damage. The Reflex save DC is calculated using the spell level of the formula. This ability replaces poison resistance and poison immunity.
Amateur Gunslinger
At 2th level, an alchemist gains the Amateur Gunslinger feat as a bonus feat. The alchemist uses his Intelligence bonus for determining his grit points, rather than his Wisdom bonus. At 4th level and every 4th level thereafter, the alchemist can select a deed fit for his level in place of a discovery. This ability replaces poison use.
Alchemical Bullet (Su)
At 6th level, an alchemist can use Craft (Alchemy) to create all alchemical cartridges, and also can make special hollow metal bullets, filling them with any alchemical powder or dust. When the infused ammunition hits its target, it deals damage normally and delivers the alchemical item's effect as well. This ability replaces swift poisoning.
Discoveries: These discoveries complement the potionslinger archetype: Explosive Bomb, Explosive Missile, Infusion, and all the bomb discoveries.
I like it bardess.. But its kinda the opposite of the first (getting rid of bombs to use poison..)
For Potionslinger, I see the opposite, the desire to use poison instead of bombs.
The wording on the second ability is kinda weird, and I don't see why a dart gun should explode. Especially one that is just shooting liquids like Cure Light Wounds.
For the sake of not having as many Poof effects, I'd actually move it to a first level ability where you get gunsmithing/injection gun at level 1, enhancement bonus though does also add to poison DC. This replaces Bombs/Throw anything and Mutagen.
Amateur could move up or stay at level 2.
Alchemical Bullet is kinda useless. Gunsmithing and a Gunsmithing kit allow you to do most of this from the start.
Cause in mine you lose mutagen, I'd also replace out persistant mutagen with another effect.
The Gun
1d2 P damage, x2 crit 30 foot reach.
Hits full AC unlike other firearms, and doesn't explode if you fail after it is broken. Light weapon
Darts - Act like Alchemical charges so long as they are already filled with something.
Hm. I can see your point, but since an alchemist must have Infusion to let his extracts affect others, this is kinda garbled.
If you want replace Mutagen instead of Poison, this makes sense. But an exploding gun is SO fit for an alchemist... hmmm... maybe this way:
Potionslinger
Ready, Steady, Fire
The potionslinger gains the Exotic Weapon Proficiency (firearms) feat. This replaces Throw Anything.
Injection Gun (Su)
At 1st level, a potionslinger gains the Infusion discovery and also the Gunsmithing feat as a bonus feat, and a battered gun modified to fire special glass darts containing extracts, potions or elixirs. A dart causes half the damage of a normal bullet and also injects the liquid to the victim. This firearm can't fire normal bullets or explosive bullets (as with the Explosive Missile discovery), but can fire alchemical cartridges or poison cartridges. The injection gun is useless in the hands of others. The potionslinger can't use Touch Injection with the gun.
The gun’s enhancement bonus (if any) is a bonus to the spell’s saving throw DCs. If the injection gun misfires there's a 1-on-6 chance that the dart or cartridge breaks and splashes on the wielder. A backfired alchemical cartridge causes half the normal damage, while a liquid is superheated from the misfire and becomes mildly acid, causing 1d4 damage to the alchemist (no save). This ability replaces mutagen and persistent mutagen.
Amateur Gunslinger
At 2nd level, a potionslinger alchemist gains the Amateur Gunslinger feat as a bonus feat. The potionslinger uses his Intelligence bonus for determining his grit points, rather than his Wisdom bonus. At 4th level and every 4th level thereafter, the potionslinger can select a deed fit for his level in place of a discovery. This ability replaces the discovery gained at 2nd level.
Discoveries
These discoveries complement the potionslinger archetype: Explosive Bomb, Explosive Missile, and all the bomb discoveries.
Injection Gun: Cost: as base firearm +300 gp. Hits full AC unlike other firearms, and doesn't explode if you fail after it is broken. Light weapon.
If the injection gun’s destroyed, the alchemist can create another gun with Gunsmithing according to the normal rules.
I'll further remove Infusion as a free discovery (only fired elixirs can be considered infused for the potionslinger), and grant the chance of selecting deeds at 6th level rather than 4th.
Remember that an alchemist does not have attack extracts the same way that a wizard has attack spells.
If the alchemist is going to be shooting things, its going to be buff extracts mostly with his standard spell list, or poisons.
I know, but some alchemist spells allow ST: for example, Reduce Person. He could shoot Reduce Person to an enemy. That's why I introduced that rule. Let's make it less specific and say that also STs against poison and alchemical cartridges are affected.
Yep, Thats what I'd suggest as well. It also makes it useful at first level..
I'd also say the gun should do less damage, allowing the potionslinger to be a little more helful with shooting people with healing extracts over
Heh... that's fun, still. XD "Ok, I'll help you but it will hurt". SOOO ALCHEMIST-LIKE.
We also should add "only injected type poisons" (and maybe contact poisons? Or an aimed shot into the mouth to deliver an ingested poison?)
Also... somebody suggested a "water gun" instead of a dart gun... mmmh...
Well its all a matter of changing the shell really. If you make a glass shell intended to shatter on impact, you can deliver inhaled poisons or contact poison.
The damage though is why I didn't say remove the damage, just make it a 1d2. Like a blowgun.
Hm. For all guns' types?
What about leaving it to 1/2 and making it nonlethal damage?
I had thought the gun was going to be its own special type.
Mostly cause of some weird things like using blunderbuss or the cannon
That's another way to see it.^_^
We could create the statistics for a dart gun AND a splash gun, both in one-hand and two-hand version (an injection rifle for elephants would be a two-hand version). Maybe a special weapon proficiency to handle that?
This way, anyone could use a dart gun with poison or potion darts... but only a Potionslinger could charge extracts in it. Sounds good.
(By the way, Potionslinger doesn't suit me too well... some ideas for another cooler name?)
I was thinking Injector.
Or Inoculator.
Perhaps Vaccinator? Vaccinist?
Maybe drop mutagen and poison for the gunsmithing? Allow deeds to be chosen as discoveries, but you can never have more deeds than alchemist discoveries. Keep the bomb damage to d6s (I HATE d4s!!!!). Maybe grant the ability to load a gun with a bomb at higher level?
The alchemist can already charge a bomb in a bullet with Explosive Missile.
We would keep poison too (poison darts make sense).
Imagine our alchemist with a bomb gun in one hand and a dart gun in the other.
Currently, I'm imagining two versions of a gunslinger alchemist.
One with a dartgun and the other with a normal gun.
Sorry, I have to.
Blu Heavy: MEDIC! I NEED A DOCTOR!
TF2 is too widely spread on the net.
Now to get back on topic.
An idea we toyed with at our table was working with the Gunsmithing Feat.
Alchemical Gunsmith I [Ex]
[Base wording and prices same as default feat.]
[Changes]:
When the alchemist crafts a firearm, he creates a special kind that has become known as an Alchemical Firearm. Such a weapon counts as battered, counting as broken for anyone else than the creator, and can be sold for 4d10 only.
Any single alchemical cartridge made by the alchemist can be coated in poison as if applying it to a bolt, arrow, or any other ammunition while loaded inside the firearm.
This ability replaces Brew Potion.
lchemical Gunsmith II [Su or Ex]
By using Gunsmithing ammunition creation rules, and adding the creation cost of an alchemical item (mundane or magical[extracts]) he can create an Infused Alchemical Cartridge, this feature allows said alchemist to use Alchemist's Fire/Ice/Acid or other alchemical items as ammunition for an alchemical gun, being used as normal, but using the firearms range but not damage.
Extracts made in such way take a full-round action to create and fire, dealing no damage if the extracts effect is Save:Harmless. The alchemist still needs Infusion Discovery, or the extract looses it's power and the bullet harms the target as normal.
This ability counts as Ex when used on alchemical items, but Su when combined with Extract class feature.
This ability replaces Swift Alchemy, Instant Alchemy.
It's bit of an experimental thing, so not sure how balanced it is, and it's more like a 'partial' archetype currently, so by hijacking this thread a bit, feel free to comment & criticize.
- I got my eye on you. -
After all, however, a Grenadier can do anything a Potionslinger could do... except poisoned darts and extract darts. Too bad that the two can't stack (due to the Grenadier's renounce to poison).
What about setting aside the Potionslinger and create invece the dart gun and splash gun as new weapons, and a new discovery to let the alchemist infuse extracts into ammunitions?
But also not.
See how's this:
Potionslinger
Ready, Steady, Fire
The potionslinger gains the Exotic Weapon Proficiency (firearms) feat. This replaces Throw Anything.
Injection Gun (Su)
A potionslinger gains the Gunsmithing feat as a bonus feat, and a battered gun specially modified, called a dart gun or rifle (see below). This gun fires glass darts fillable with liquids or alchemical powders, and injects the liquid into its victim with a successful attack.
The potionslinger can charge extracts into darts ant fire them to a target. Fired extracts are considered infused, even if the alchemist hasn’t the Infusion discovery. This firearm can't fire normal bullets or explosive bullets (as with the Explosive Missile discovery), but can fire alchemical cartridges or poisoned cartridges or darts. The injection gun is useless in the hands of others. The potionslinger can't use Touch Injection with the gun.
The gun’s enhancement bonus (if any) is a bonus to the saving throw DCs (if any) against extracts, alchemical items or poisons fired. If the injection gun misfires, there's a 1-on-6 chance for the dart or cartridge to break and splash on the wielder. A backfiring alchemical cartridge causes half the normal damage, while a liquid is superheated by the misfire and becomes mildly acid, causing 1d4 damage to the alchemist (no save). If the injection gun’s destroyed, the alchemist can create another gun with Gunsmithing according to the normal rules.
Dart Gun (one-handed firearm): Cost 3.300 gp, Dmg 1d2 (S)/1d3 (M) (nonlethal damage) + injection, Critical x2, Range 30 ft., Misfire 1-2 (5 ft.), Capacity 1, Weight 2,5 lbs. (Small weapon), Type P, Special: Hits full AC unlike other firearms, and doesn't explode if you fail after it is broken.
Dart Rifle (two-handed firearm): Cost 7.300 gp, Dmg 1d3 (S)/1d4 (M) (nonlethal damage) + injection, Critical x2, Range 80 ft., Misfire 1-2, Capacity 1, Weight 15 lbs. (Medium weapon), Type P, Special: Hits full AC unlike other firearms, and doesn't explode if you fail after it is broken.
This ability replaces mutagen and persistent mutagen.
Amateur Gunslinger
At 2nd level, a potionslinger alchemist gains the Amateur Gunslinger feat as a bonus feat. The potionslinger uses his Intelligence bonus for determining his grit points, rather than his Wisdom bonus. At 6th level and every 4th level thereafter, the potionslinger can select a deed fit for his level in place of a discovery. This ability replaces the discovery gained at 2nd level.
Discoveries
These discoveries complement the potionslinger archetype: Explosive Bomb, Explosive Missile, Infusion, and all the bomb discoveries.
This should be fully stackable with the Grenadier, if our Injector decides to give up poison use. Hehe ^_^
Should we create statistics for a splash gun too? That would be pretty impressive, but an alchemist hasn't many extracts that affect more than one target, right?
Only communal that I know of. Not sure how you use it on more than one, you all share a bong?