So I have some ideas about how to roleplay, and utilize, a bat familiar. But my GM and I don't agree 100% on what a 6 INT animal can understand and do. I'll of course defer to his decision, but I'd like some more opinions/information since we're still in the discussion phase. Eventually (at higher levels) I picture my familiar will act in as intelligent a fashion as Archemedes (Sword and the Stone) or Iago (Aladdin) with some obvious differences.
Here's what I'm thinking I should be able to do at Level 1-2:
With a 6 INT the bat could and/or should understand my characters words, as much as a troll (also 6 INT) or a less intelligent human would. The familiar could even communicate, non-verbally, with the character, with a similar amount of clarity as... Lassie. Without the humans amazing ability to understand barks of course. So pulling on the chars clothes, flapping about in an agitated fashion, screeching/squeaking with abandon. That semi-intelligence, non-verbal communication, along with Empathic Link, which only allows emotions to be communicated perfectly between Wizard and Familiar seems a large amount of potential understanding between the two.
Some things this level of understanding could accomplish (in my opinion) is basic commands, IE: Scouting, "find food, water, animals, buildings, shelter (I foresee some confusion as a bat tries to lead the Wizard to a tiny hole in the wall fit to be a shelter for a bat), various party members/people familiar should be... familiar with, danger" OR "Bring me that... tiny thing a diminutive flying creature can bring me." OR "Hide" "Come" etc... What are you thoughts here?
As levels increase and the familiar gains an intelligence score nearing and surpassing 10 INT, and the familiar gains the "Speak with Master" trait, I anticipate much more complex commands and a high level of communication between wizard and familiar. On par with conversing with a human with a similar INT score.
Once I get a handle on what the familiar can do and what it can understand, I'll be better equipped to roleplay it accordingly. Thanks!
I call it child like intelligence. So imagine a ten year old as reference for capabilities.
I call it child like intelligence. So imagine a ten year old as reference for capabilities.
For "capabilities" or for "communication capabilities"? Because most any animal, or adult animal would probably be more capable on it's own in a forest than a ten year old child. But a ten year old would certainly articulate it's discomfort and fear better than any normal animal.
Suurvival is a wisdom based skill for a reason. We're talking about intelligence. it's more about articulation and doing out of the norm problem solving or complex tasks.
A raven knows how to make a nest because it's a natural thing.
a non-familiar raven isn't normally capable of playing checkers. However a familiar raven has an int score above 3, so it can play checkers. THough with an int of 8 it can't play very well.
I gotcha, so strictly from an intelligence perspective, this makes sense to me. What about from the perspective of communicating with the Wizard? Using the example of a ten year old child again, would understand quite a bit, nothing overly complex, but basic commands would be no problem I would think.
I gotcha, so strictly from an intelligence perspective, this makes sense to me. What about from the perspective of communicating with the Wizard? Using the example of a ten year old child again, would understand quite a bit, nothing overly complex, but basic commands would be no problem I would think.
Exactly. An int 8 creature couldn't give a tactical analysis of the fortress it flew over, but it could say 4 walls with a tall tower inn the middle.
WIzard "how tall was the tower."
Familiar "Really tall."
*facepalm*
For example.
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Picture someone you know with a well trained dog, someone who has a great relationship with that dog - perhaps a relationship that you don't understand. That person can look at the dog and claim to know what they are feeling, and they will say that they dog can always tell what mood s/he is in.
That's a pretty common scenario, right?
Going back to the rules, that dog has Int 2.
I'm not so keen on the 10 year old analogy. My 9 y.o. can cook with a little supervision, can articulate very complex concept, will question cosmology and theology, has developed the above relationship with her own dogs, and has been doing all this for years. Same with my two older children.
I would think of Int 6 as much closer to my 4 year old. He understands complex and multistep commands, can recall and articulate long stories (sometimes even real stories). His language skills do not limit him, and he creates some wonderful analogies - "I have lemonade in my legs," for pins-and-needles.
My almost 2 y.o. can carry out two-step requests. She has a vocabulary of about 20 words (of her own language that only the family really understand) and can make her desires very clear - of course when we don't understand she tends to squeal and/or throw herself on the ground.
A significant reason we see young children as lacking intelligence is their short attention span - 2 minutes for stuff they don't want to do, BUT they can focus for as along as they want (if you need to cut short an activity a child is really immersed in you should give them a five and one minute warning, and say goodbye to whatever it is).
I also think we greatly exaggerate the detriment of any ability scores below 10, and forget how extraordinary they can be when above 10. I think we've taken 16 as the new Average or Normal.
For me, an Int 6 familiar would have a small vocabulary, most noticably having a very short list of nouns, verbs, adjectives, and even less adverbs. These would be based on his experience - in this case being derived from the familiars experience as an animal of its kind AND from its interaction with its master. The familiar would have no trouble communication it's emotions and basic needs. It could count to at least five with accuracy. It could follow three or four step commands (fly to our house, get the 3 blue wands from the table, and take it to Ms Love-Interest, then come back here to tell me about it). When it is able to speak things really escalate, and you could probably triple these expectations.
I'm sure I have met people with an Int 6 living normal lives. To be misanthropic about it, they are boring, lacking imagination, and steadfast in their beliefs. I was thinking to say that they work menial jobs, but some of them are in management.
I think we tend to apply lower Int scores to people who have difficulties with our native language (thinking Faulty Towers). Familiars have great difficulty with Common, even ravens.
If we think of the ability scores as a bell-curve from 3 to 18 with 10.5 in the middle, 6 doesn't look that low. I don't have one in front of me, and don't want to go draw one, but I'd estimate that up to 20% of the population has Int 6 or lower.
TL;DR - perhaps you have an Int below that of a familiar :-p (jokes)
I gotcha, so strictly from an intelligence perspective, this makes sense to me. What about from the perspective of communicating with the Wizard? Using the example of a ten year old child again, would understand quite a bit, nothing overly complex, but basic commands would be no problem I would think.Exactly. An int 8 creature couldn't give a tactical analysis of the fortress it flew over, but it could say 4 walls with a tall tower inn the middle.
WIzard "how tall was the tower."
Familiar "Really tall."
*facepalm*
For example.
The wizards should be smart enough to ask better questions:
How tall is that tower compared to our tower?How many windows does it have on one side?
Was it taller than this tree?
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Now here's the point we're I feel the need to say something.
First you may be off on your estimate of the intelligence score. Remember in pathfinder the "average" intelligence of all the PC races is actually a range from 8-10.
An Int 8 commoner/expert is not an idiot or a child, they are perfectly average, functional adult who can care for themselves, hold down a job and function as a productive member of their class.
Characters with an Int score (or any stat) over 10 or under 8 are an exception to the norm.
An Int 6 creature is a LOT more capable then you are describing and are just barely under the level of the average human/Halfling/Dwarf (and nearly equal to the average Orc who can craft tools, build houses and master advanced combat tactics).
Now add to the above the fact that familiars ARE NOT animals anymore. They are magical creatures with completely different skills, powers and abilities. The limits on what a familiar can do is about the same for what any Player Character with an Int of 6 can do.
/end rant
For your original question the most important thing you can use your Familiar for at low levels is the Aid Another action.
EVERYTHING you do you should be having your familiar helping you do it. A free +2 to every skill check you make (your familiar has your ranks in every skill you have) is a nice boost.
If you're affected by a spell (or trying to help a party member that is) it can give you a +2 on those checks too.
I gotcha, so strictly from an intelligence perspective, this makes sense to me. What about from the perspective of communicating with the Wizard? Using the example of a ten year old child again, would understand quite a bit, nothing overly complex, but basic commands would be no problem I would think.Exactly. An int 8 creature couldn't give a tactical analysis of the fortress it flew over, but it could say 4 walls with a tall tower inn the middle.
WIzard "how tall was the tower."
Familiar "Really tall."
*facepalm*
For example.
The wizards should be smart enough to ask better questions:
How tall is that tower compared to our tower?
How many windows does it have on one side?
Was it taller than this tree?
I realize. It was just for comic effect. Familiars are smarter than other animals, but they see things differently. The raven may have not bothered to look at the tower's height because it was distracted by a shiny bauble.
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Int 6-7 is about Forrest Gump or 6 year old kid. Abstract concepts can be confusing, but a fine grasp of concrete ideas should be firmly in place. "The tower was really big boss!"
Int 8-9 is a little slow, it takes a little longer to explain but even abstract concepts are communicable. "The tower was taller 'n the one at home boss"
Int 10-11 is average, and a familiar will have little problems communicating most any concept.
The wizards should be smart enough to ask better questions:
I agree completely, but I do feel the need to mention that any character I'm playing can only act as intelligently as I can pretend to be, which really is unfair to a 17 INT Wizard.
@DM_aka_Dudemeister - That is helpful, but am I understanding familiars correctly in that only the Raven can communicate verbally until level... 5? and the familiar gains the Speak with Master trait, correct? Until that point, it's gotta be more creative communications, but the consensus is that the communication should be possible, from what I'm hearing.
@Mathwei ap Niall - That's a great idea to utilize the familiar on skill checks, I'll definitely implement that.
@OberonViking - Great examples, especially as I have a 4 year old as well, and the age/INT ratio does fit fairly well.
On my original question; What about handling the familiar in Combat? I first thought about having the bat hide in my cloak or something, but that could expose it to any attacks or adverse conditions being directed towards the wizard I think. Just have it fly up high? How have others done this?
If your wizard has 1 rank in Linguistics so does your familiar.
My GM has nixed this idea pulling the GM card as he interprets the skills sections for familiars:
"Skills: For each skill in which either the master or the familiar has ranks, use either the normal skill ranks for an animal of that type or the master's skill ranks, whichever is better. In either case, the familiar uses its own ability modifiers. Regardless of a familiar's total skill modifiers, some skills may remain beyond the familiar's ability to use. Familiars treat Acrobatics, Climb, Fly, Perception, Stealth, and Swim as class skills."...in conjunction with his interpretation of the level 5 trait Speak with Master:
"Speak with Master (Ex): If the master is 5th level or higher, a familiar and the master can communicate verbally as if they were using a common language. Other creatures do not understand the communication without magical help."
but maybe he'll change his mind once I direct his attention here, just as an FYI. Unfortunately I'm not too hopeful. :)
@Terquem - Interesting point, hadn't considered this perspective before. Good food for thought.
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For your original question the most important thing you can use your Familiar for at low levels is the Aid Another action.
EVERYTHING you do you should be having your familiar helping you do it. A free +2 to every skill check you make (your familiar has your ranks in every skill you have) is a nice boost.If you're affected by a spell (or trying to help a party member that is) it can give you a +2 on those checks too.
Hmmm. I'd probably be pretty strict about what a familiar can aid you with. Even more so when you can't easily communicate with it.
Knowledge skills? How does a bat help with Swim? etc. etc.There's plenty of latitude in the Aid Another rules to require justification, some kind of description of how the familiar is helping in each case. If you're creative, you'll get some use out of it, but certainly not +2 to every skill check you make.
That's perfectly fine in your home game, rule it however you want.
The action as written however is if you succeed on an aid another check you can give that +2 and it doesn't ask for any justification to do so.If you want the justification for your example the bat helps you swim the same way a rowing captain does, keeps the rhythm and guides your direction (the bat just does it empathically).
A great example/guide is the Vlad Taltos series of books and his interactions with his familiar Loish. Pull any one of those and show your DM a good master/familiar relationship and it'll really solve 90% of your problems.
@thejeff & Mathwei ap Niall - Thank you both, and I'll definitely check out those books. Partially because I enjoy a good read, but also to get a good master/familiar example.
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For your original question the most important thing you can use your Familiar for at low levels is the Aid Another action.
EVERYTHING you do you should be having your familiar helping you do it. A free +2 to every skill check you make (your familiar has your ranks in every skill you have) is a nice boost.If you're affected by a spell (or trying to help a party member that is) it can give you a +2 on those checks too.
Hmmm. I'd probably be pretty strict about what a familiar can aid you with. Even more so when you can't easily communicate with it.
Knowledge skills? How does a bat help with Swim? etc. etc.There's plenty of latitude in the Aid Another rules to require justification, some kind of description of how the familiar is helping in each case. If you're creative, you'll get some use out of it, but certainly not +2 to every skill check you make.
That's perfectly fine in your home game, rule it however you want.
The action as written however is if you succeed on an aid another check you can give that +2 and it doesn't ask for any justification to do so.If you want the justification for your example the bat helps you swim the same way a rowing captain does, keeps the rhythm and guides your direction (the bat just does it empathically).
A great example/guide is the Vlad Taltos series of books and his interactions with his familiar Loish. Pull any one of those and show your DM a good master/familiar relationship and it'll really solve 90% of your problems.
...Aid Another
You can help someone achieve success on a skill check by making the same kind of skill check in a cooperative effort. If you roll a 10 or higher on your check, the character you're helping gets a +2 bonus on his or her check. (You can't take 10 on a skill check to aid another.) In many cases, a character's help won't be beneficial, or only a limited number of characters can help at once.
Yup, it states a GM can veto any attempt he wants, so it's just restating that rule zero is in force here.
Still doesn't require any justification on how your helping just that you need to state you are going to try and help.
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On my original question; What about handling the familiar in Combat? I first thought about having the bat hide in my cloak or something, but that could expose it to any attacks or adverse conditions being directed towards the wizard I think. Just have it fly up high? How have others done this?
I worry about the day that the GM remembers my familiar actually exists- I don't utilize my familiar half as much as I could because I don't want it to be seen by my GM as a "tool" that can be "taken away". A couple of times I have gone as far as saying, "Ok foxy, go run and hide." at the start of combat.
The more you use your familiar to your advantage- taking an active role in the party, the more likely your GM will see it as something to be attacked/affected by adverse conditions. I treat mine as a living (and utterly cute) spellbook.
I worry about the day that the GM remembers my familiar actually exists- I don't utilize my familiar half as much as I could because I don't want it to be seen by my GM as a "tool" that can be "taken away". A couple of times I have gone as far as saying, "Ok foxy, go run and hide." at the start of combat.The more you use your familiar to your advantage- taking an active role in the party, the more likely your GM will see it as something to be attacked/affected by adverse conditions. I treat mine as a living (and utterly cute) spellbook.
Good point, maybe utilizing the familiar, even in non-combat situations, isn't always in the familiars best interest. Thanks for the tip.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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That's perfectly fine in your home game, rule it however you want.
The action as written however is if you succeed on an aid another check you can give that +2 and it doesn't ask for any justification to do so.
Player: My bat familiar aids me in swimming
Me (GM): How?Player: Umm... I don't have to give any justification for how he helps me.
GM: I don't have to give you any bonus.
Player: Ummmm
Many (most?) GMs are going to look askew at aid another attempts that don't make sense. Aid another on perception checks? Umm, maybe if you are searching for something but not on opposed checks because it takes an action to aid another.
It is also far from every check because (particularly at low levels) it has to make the DC 10 aid another check which can be tough for a critter with 3 ranks and no relevant ability bonus. Obviously once you pass 7th level or so this is far less of an issue.
It is a pretty nifty 'bonus', but I have problems with phrases like "A free +2 to every skill check you make..." which implies you've written it on your character sheet and apply it without mentioning it to your GM which is wrong.