I can definitely say I have been a little frustrated by the time and effort it takes me, as a new GM, to find and convey the important information in the APs. Especially as a new GM, I often read the entries and think "Wow, how am I going to remember/convey all of that?" I agree that I love every AP that I've been a part of so far, but the current presentation could VERY EASILY include a line or two of quick-reference info. Good call, Reynard. Thanks!
Creative Director
|
Adventures need to be fun to read as well as fun to play. Putting too many stat-like descriptions of the encounter areas not only disrupts the reading experience, but actually starts to get really repetitive and wasteful of space—we tried listing light and magic auras and stuff like that in Dungeon back around issue #104, and it really started wreaking havoc on text flow. Particularly in high level areas.
We do often look at new ways to present information in adventures, but significant changes require a lot of extra time... and that's not something we have a lot of these days.
That said... what would folks like to see in some sort of quick reference line for encounter areas? Lighting seems like an obvious one, but I'm not so sure listing what the walls and doors are made of is really a good use of space since for most dungeons that'd end up being the same over and over and over.
Also... it's actually okay if you don't remember certain details of an adventure when you run it. Players aren't THAT observant of the details! :-)
Also... it's actually okay if you don't remember certain details of an adventure when you run it. Players aren't THAT observant of the details! :-)
In most cases that's true, but the problem arises when players specifically ask the questions about doors/ligh and then I have to flip through the AP to god knows where...
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
That said... what would folks like to see in some sort of quick reference line for encounter areas? Lighting seems like an obvious one, but I'm not so sure listing what the walls and doors are made of is really a good use of space since for most dungeons that'd end up being the same over and over and over.
I think for the most part the adventures are fine as they are. For me, it's only some of the major encounters that need help.
The most recent ones I ran into were:
A table would have been infinitely more useful. Yes, it probably would have cost a half-page of the adventure, but in this case it would have been worth it.
For short encounters, however (like most of them are), I'd just leave it alone. It's only the big ones that kill me with the facts buried in the prose.
Also: Please, no more special symbols. The monster type and terrain symbols are plenty, perhaps even more than enough for me.
Contributor
|
While I appreciate the aesthetics and time argument, I agree that a light & doors (locked, trapped, secret?) entry would be tremendously helpful. Ceiling height would not be amiss, either. These are things that have stopped the flow of my game while I flipped pages to confirm I was giving a player the correct answer.
|
Creative Director
|
Have you ever considered a symbol system (like in the Bestiary) for quick reference of things like light levels, etc.?
We did, but that causes a pretty significant problem—symbols like those in the bestiary are art objects, not word objects. As such, it falls to the art team to go in and move and manipulate them—we on the editorial side of things can't move them. And since text flow changes happen CONSTANTLY and up to the very last minute, having to coordinate with the art team on where these things move as text flow changes would not only add a significant amount of work, but perhaps worse, would set up a LOT of opportunities for us to miss stuff and make errors.
This is the same reason we present our stat blocks in a purely textual format rather than use fancy colored bars or symbols or other artistic flourishes on them.
If we weren't on monthly schedules with our products, we could probably consider adding new levels of complexity to our design process like this... but as long as we're on a monthly subscription model, adding significant new steps to production is a bad idea.
For me personally, I like things the way they are. I wouldn't want to see any more "dry" statblock-like information in the adventures, especially not if it would remove space from the actual adventure, and I definitely wouldn't want to see symbols like in the Bestiaries.
Lighting, door-types and wall-types are generally the same throughout a major dungeon (with such information frequently written before the first encounter area), and the rooms that have different types tend to have it fairly clearly written in the room description or the "read-aloud" text as it is.
as far as i know they put all the info bout lighting, walls and what not at the beginning of each dungeon level, i haven't had a problem also as james pointed out most player won't notice any ad libbing about that type of thing.
|
Creative Director
|
Those are interesting stat blocks, but they kind of show off my primary concern that something like this would be:
1) Not all that fun to read, and
2) Take up a lot of space. With their numerous hard returns, stat blocks of ANY type end up wasting a fair amount of space when they have entries that don't fill the line. And for an adventure, room descriptions are often rather short already. I'd hate to see a new format basically set a hard limit of a dozen or two lines of text to EVERY encounter—the result might be easier to run encounters, but would also result in FEWER encounters per adventure as well, which would not be a good thing for Adventure Paths (where we regularly hear requests for longer adventures that go to higher levels, as well as regular complaints when an AP doesn't go much higher than 12th level).
I agree with James Jacobs, here.
From what I can tell, the extra info given by these new 'environmental' stat blocks no where near makes up for the loss of space/words the adventures require (which, IMO, are too-short as it is).
Right now, I handle this sort of thing by penciling in a small summary of relevant info in the margins near the areas where it will be useful (when I do my first or so read-through). So, for each room description, I'll note at the title or at the beginning the lighting conditions; for buildings, I'll note ceiling heights, wall/door make-up, etc at the beginning of the building description/title. Etc.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm not a fan of the stat block, symbols would be nice but I understand why they are not included but what drives me crazy is having to read though tons of stuff just to find the important stuff to play. While reading it makes if fun the first time through, when actually playing it I want things easy to find so it doesn't slow up the game. I would like to see important stuff at the top and less important stuff at the bottom like a newspaper article. It drives me crazy when a real important piece of info is in the last sentence of a long section.
This doesn't just applly to the AP's but the rules also. I've learned in the rules when I think I've read everything I need to read to skip down to the very end and make sure I read the last sentence becuase sometimes there is a crucial piece of info there. I've read a lot of rules for different games and I can't recall a game system that sometimes puts critical info into the last sentence of a section.
|
|
Have you ever considered a symbol system (like in the Bestiary) for quick reference of things like light levels, etc.?We did, but that causes a pretty significant problem—symbols like those in the bestiary are art objects, not word objects. As such, it falls to the art team to go in and move and manipulate them—we on the editorial side of things can't move them. And since text flow changes happen CONSTANTLY and up to the very last minute, having to coordinate with the art team on where these things move as text flow changes would not only add a significant amount of work, but perhaps worse, would set up a LOT of opportunities for us to miss stuff and make errors.
But not if you put the symbols on the actual map....
As far as I see it, you don't need the wall/material etc for important areas, you can see it from the map, symbols for normal cieling height, light level etc could be on a corner of each map....
|
Creative Director
|
Maybe put them on an inner cover? I've talked about it before, but to me the inner covers of Carrion Crown are the very definition of wasted space. Why it is ok to "waste" space on prose (like CC does in every volume) but not on stat blocks?
I understand the inspiration aspect of the CC write-ups but is that something I need mid-session as GM? I would designate the interior covers of every AP to game rules, tables, statblocks, maps, whatever kind of game playing aid the GM needs. The inner covers are the easiest locations for GMs to find and refer to without the use of bookmarks, stickies, or paper clips. I can get to an inner cover in a millisecond during a session, not so with any other part of the book. I think they should be designated as "GM stat space" exclusively. :)
We couldn't disagree more. I thought that the inner covers of Carrion Crown were excellent—remember, there's more to running an Adventure Path than rules and die roles. There's flavor as well, and in particular, an AP like Carrion Crown MUST rely on some spooky ambience. Not every GM is equally capable of conveying things like that, and by including those local rumors and legends on the inside covers, we give GMs not only some flavorful inspiration for how things are in Ustalav... but even provide him with short little stories he can recite to the players in the form of tavern tales or rumors.
Furthermore... the inside covers also serve as a place to make our books look pretty. Stat blocks are not pretty to look at. Art and maps, though, are. That's why we've been trying to make those inside covers look super artistic of late—when a new customer picks up an AP for the first time and is hit with cool art and some quick-to-read flavorful well-written text... I can't help but think that works a lot better to impress than simply more statistics.
And in any case, I doubt we'd be able to fit a full adventure's encounter statblocks on anything less than several pages anyway.
|
Creative Director
|
Have you ever considered a symbol system (like in the Bestiary) for quick reference of things like light levels, etc.?We did, but that causes a pretty significant problem—symbols like those in the bestiary are art objects, not word objects. As such, it falls to the art team to go in and move and manipulate them—we on the editorial side of things can't move them. And since text flow changes happen CONSTANTLY and up to the very last minute, having to coordinate with the art team on where these things move as text flow changes would not only add a significant amount of work, but perhaps worse, would set up a LOT of opportunities for us to miss stuff and make errors.But not if you put the symbols on the actual map....
As far as I see it, you don't need the wall/material etc for important areas, you can see it from the map, symbols for normal cieling height, light level etc could be on a corner of each map....
Actually... since coordinating maps with adventure text is probably the single most difficult part of developing an adventure, I worry that making maps even more complex would break something. Especially since we never know how much "leftover" space a map will have for us to place extra symbols and notes—and the problem there is that the more complex a map gets, the more it would need those notes while at the same time the less room it would have to show them.
|
Creative Director
|
And if I seem resistant to the idea of change in how we present adventures... it's not without cause. I've been developing adventures for Paizo for nearly 10 years now (whew!) and writing them for a lot longer than that, and I've tried a lot of different formats in those years. Some have been failures, others successes. What we've got right now is pretty solid, and as such I'm really hesitant to mix with it—if it ain't broke, don't fix it, and all.
I'm still certainly willing to entertain changes, though, and welcome suggestions. Just keep in mind that I'm not actually thinking of changing the way we present adventures unless something significantly dramatic comes along! :-)
I buy APs to read only. I was enthusiastic about the late 3e/4e adventure format, until I actually saw it - it was horrible to read.
I think clearer and shorter read-aloud texts is the way to go, if you need to change anything. Also, allow some white space if necessary to avoid breaking up statblocks and encounter areas between page spreads.
There is some value to this. Even a line or two at the start of a dungeon that reads:
Light Dim; Walls: stone. Doors: heavy wooden.
I think Rappan Athuk reloaded had a line like this for many/most rooms, or at least for rooms that differed from the rest of the dungeon level. I thought it was very useful and quite readable.
But as long as the APs stay away from long room descriptions with the monsters listed at the very end ("Oh, by the way, there's a horde of rampaging dragons in this room"), I'm happy. :-)
Greetings James Jacobs!
Here's something to toy with: Perhaps just using bold type for the relevant information in the prose. It'll jump out, but as bold type is part of the text document, it will move as needed during editing.
|
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
|
You sell yourself short, James! I really like the changes you introduced in the latest AP, including the numbered summaries of the adventure and the separate treasure listing. I hope that is working well and will continue to be used in the future.
Also, to add to the list of adventure tools that failed, I would point to the earliest 3.0 issues of Dungeon that included a box at the end of each adventure listing each creature/encounter by CR. I imagine it went by the wayside due to the extreme amount of space it used up and the relatively small increase in usability it provided.
|
Creative Director
|
Also, to add to the list of adventure tools that failed, I would point to the earliest 3.0 issues of Dungeon that included a box at the end of each adventure listing each creature/encounter by CR. I imagine it went by the wayside due to the extreme amount of space it used up and the relatively small increase in usability it provided.
Yup; that box went away because it was a waste of space.
|
...the problem arises when players specifically ask the questions about doors/ligh and then I have to flip through the AP to god knows where...
Whenever I prep an adventure, I print it out and go through with a set of highlighters. I mark up all the important text with different colors, so I can find things more quickly (blue for important details, green for treasure, red for hazard/encounter/tactics, and yellow for skill-related info). I've toyed with the idea of breaking blue further down by adding orange and purple to the mix (maybe orange for environment purple for deep background or something).
-Skeld
I vote for leaving such minor details in the area of "GM provenance" except where it's actually relevant to the story.
For example
I would prefer, in general, that all that space be used for interesting stuff rather than mundanely listing the stats of every door, wall and ceiling.
so far i have all of kingmaker, serpent's skull, carrion crown and all of jade regent that has been released so far and the inside covers are some of my favorite parts of the adventure. as james jacobs has said atmosphere is a big part of adventures and the inside covers do it wonderfully without bogging down the book. good job to everyone that works on them.
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
|
Here's something to toy with: Perhaps just using bold type for the relevant information in the prose. It'll jump out, but as bold type is part of the text document, it will move as needed during editing.
Assuming you could figure out the right stuff to bold and it wouldn't interfere with the text flow too much, this might be a good option.
Another point I'd just like to mention: please make sure to include ceiling heights for areas that are not open to the sky! Between Spider Climb and various modes of flight, my parties almost always tend to have someone above ground level from about level 3 or 4 onwards. You've done pretty well at this so far, and the heights are almost always in the text somewhere, but it's sometimes difficult to find the appropriate passage.
Whenever I prep an adventure, I print it out and go through with a set of highlighters. I mark up all the important text with different colors, so I can find things more quickly (blue for important details, green for treasure, red for hazard/encounter/tactics, and yellow for skill-related info). I've toyed with the idea of breaking blue further down by adding orange and purple to the mix (maybe orange for environment purple for deep background or something).
-Skeld
This is actually a very good idea. I used to do the same in my dungeon magazines, although I only used one colour. But highlighting is definitely a good option. If you don't want to 'damage' your books too much, you could also underline the gist with a soft pencil.
I also make a print out of my maps and I add little notes with the most important details, such as creatures, traps, DCs for skills, treasure location ... This gives me all the necessary information at first glance, very, very handy!
A standardized block for rooms would achive another thing:
it would help Writers and Editors to make sure nothing is forgotten
just last firday I was frantically skipping through "Crypt of the Everflame" trying to answer a question of one of my players and could not find it, I made something up and a few moments later found the info, luckily it was cohered to what I said (in that adventure a wrong info about locked/unlocked could change or even ruin the flow of everything)
Adventures shuold be good reading.
But as a DM with not that much spare time, I need them easy and sinple on game night.
Infos I would like:
Doorwood,locked,DD-DC25 Lightnone ceilingdomed, 10ft
And the inside covers of AP's, well, I am sad to say they are very worthless to me, CC and JR at least are pretty,
but SeSk and Kingmaker, to me thy where very ugly
and in Serpent Skull even annoying
This is actually a very good idea. I used to do the same in my dungeon magazines, although I only used one colour. But highlighting is definitely a good option. If you don't want to 'damage' your books too much, you could also underline the gist with a soft pencil.
Now that I think of it, didn't old D&D modules sometimes emphasize things by putting them in bold font? I'm thinking maybe the Keep on the Borderland did, but it's possible I'm thinking of another module.
E.g.
This room is full of broken furniture and the walls are blackened by smoke. Three goblins are playing a game of knucklebones in the corner.
|
Contributor
|
There is some value to this. Even a line or two at the start of a dungeon that reads:
Light Dim; Walls: stone. Doors: heavy wooden.
This in particular is the suggestion I embrace: One short line for a very few key data. I wholeheartedly agree that an elaborate stat block isn't the way to go.
|
I loved the inside covers from Kingmaker. They provided both flavor and side quest ideas, as well as handy NPC portraits.
In any case a single line with key information is I think the best compromise between ease of use and space. Also bolded monsters, traps, treasure and interactibles would make at-a-glance searching much easier. Much like highlighting interactive assets in video games does.
|
Creative Director
|
This is actually a very good idea. I used to do the same in my dungeon magazines, although I only used one colour. But highlighting is definitely a good option. If you don't want to 'damage' your books too much, you could also underline the gist with a soft pencil.Now that I think of it, didn't old D&D modules sometimes emphasize things by putting them in bold font? I'm thinking maybe the Keep on the Borderland did, but it's possible I'm thinking of another module.
E.g.
This room is full of broken furniture and the walls are blackened by smoke. Three goblins are playing a game of knucklebones in the corner.
They did... but I suspect they did that partially because back in those days, stat blocks (which were SIGNIFICANTLY shorter) were just included in the running text of the paragraph so they could be relatively easily missed if you were skimming an encounter.
We actually DO bold our creature names when they don't have separate stat blocks and only appear in running text with a super short stat block—generally this only applies to non-combat NPCs though.
|
Creative Director
|
This. +1
But as long as the APs stay away from long room descriptions with the monsters listed at the very end ("Oh, by the way, there's a horde of rampaging dragons in this room"), I'm happy. :-)
Since we always put the monsters in paragraphs labeled "Creatures" in bold, and call out combat stat blocks in their own distinctive format... I don't see that ever happening.