A sorcerer faces down an army, or more specifically, the army's cavalry. Once the sorcerer sees them atop the nearby hill he readies an action to cast spike stones when they charge.
Then they charge down the hill.
What I want to know is if the field of spike stones would interrupt their charge? Or if they don't technically suffer its effects until after they finish their movement (assuming they are still alive at the end of their move). After all, the spell was not cast until after they charged. What's more, they obviously never saw it coming and their own momentum would surely work against them, even if they are forced to stop.
What do you think would happen exactly? Would their charge be interrupted the moment they took damage? Would they finish their charge, take the sum of the damage, and then be prevented from making future charges (since their speed is reduced)?
Would the fact that they are coming down a hill at a high speed have any effect? Might they stumble and fall an extra couple dozen feet through even more hurtful spikes?
You can not charge through the area of a Spike Stones spell.
If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge.
Spike stones impede progress through an area and deal damage. Any creature moving on foot into or through the spell's area moves at half speed. In addition, each creature moving through the area takes 1d8 points of piercing damage for each 5 feet of movement through the spiked area.
Note that Spike Stones has a slowing effect before the reflex save is even attempted. Every creature in the area is automatically has their movement hampered, with a chance of being slowed even more.
Spike Growth does not automatically hamper movement. You can charge through the area of a Spike Growth, unless you fail the reflex save, in which case you can't charge. Damage occurs (At least in my opinion) for every individual square entered, not all at the end. If the character is damaged and fails the save part-way through his charge, I would end the charge right there. His speed is now hampered, and is no longer eligible to charge.
Yes, but if the cavalry has already begun the charge action and moves into the area, what happens? That's what I'm asking.
It's not like they see the obstacle and go "oh we can't charge because the rules say so." They don't see it at all, and end up blundering into it at full gallop.
Yes, but if the cavalry has already begun the charge action and moves into the area, what happens? That's what I'm asking.
It's not like they see the obstacle and go "oh we can't charge because the rules say so." They don't see it at all, and end up blundering into it at full gallop.
I was editing my post to include they when you posted. If they fail the save, their movement is now hampered, and the charge is canceled. You can't charge if you movement is hampered.
Even if they can't see the spikes of a spike stones spell, they can't attempt the charge. They can charge through a Spike Growth spell, unless they fail any of their reflex saves.
You could charge through it if it failed to beat your SR (if you had it) since then you would take none of the effects of the spell.
So. Weird.
A sorcerer faces down an army, or more specifically, the army's cavalry. Once the sorcerer sees them atop the nearby hill he readies an action to cast spike stones when they charge.
Then they charge down the hill.
What I want to know is if the field of spike stones would interrupt their charge? Or if they don't technically suffer its effects until after they finish their movement (assuming they are still alive at the end of their move). After all, the spell was not cast until after they charged. What's more, they obviously never saw it coming and their own momentum would surely work against them, even if they are forced to stop.
What do you think would happen exactly? Would their charge be interrupted the moment they took damage? Would they finish their charge, take the sum of the damage, and then be prevented from making future charges (since their speed is reduced)?
Would the fact that they are coming down a hill at a high speed have any effect? Might they stumble and fall an extra couple dozen feet through even more hurtful spikes?
If a readied action creates an impediment to movement, the moving character is in no way obligated to continue that movement. An army wouldn't be compelled to charge lemming-like through a meat grinder because they had somehow 'committed' to making a charge, any more than they would be compelled to charge into a yawning crevasse, or a conjured field of magma.
No, they wouldn't tumble helplessly through an extra dozen feet taking damage. Spike stones doesn't trip people or horses. It doesn't unhorse riders. It doesn't force people to continue moving forward, taking damage. It doesn't do any of those things. What, in the description of the spell, leads you to believe it does so many extra, beneficial things that are not described in the text?
|
A sorcerer faces down an army, or more specifically, the army's cavalry. Once the sorcerer sees them atop the nearby hill he readies an action to cast spike stones when they charge.
Then they charge down the hill.
What I want to know is if the field of spike stones would interrupt their charge? Or if they don't technically suffer its effects until after they finish their movement (assuming they are still alive at the end of their move). After all, the spell was not cast until after they charged. What's more, they obviously never saw it coming and their own momentum would surely work against them, even if they are forced to stop.
What do you think would happen exactly? Would their charge be interrupted the moment they took damage? Would they finish their charge, take the sum of the damage, and then be prevented from making future charges (since their speed is reduced)?
Would the fact that they are coming down a hill at a high speed have any effect? Might they stumble and fall an extra couple dozen feet through even more hurtful spikes?
If a readied action creates an impediment to movement, the moving character is in no way obligated to continue that movement. An army wouldn't be compelled to charge lemming-like through a meat grinder because they had somehow 'committed' to making a charge, any more than they would be compelled to charge into a yawning crevasse, or a conjured field of magma.
No, they wouldn't tumble helplessly through an extra dozen feet taking damage. Spike stones doesn't trip people or horses. It doesn't unhorse riders. It doesn't force people to continue moving forward, taking damage. It doesn't do any of those things. What, in the description of the spell, leads you to believe it does so many extra, beneficial things that are not described in the text?
I do beg to differ on one point. It should stop the charge since it forces you to 1/2 speed, thus hampering your movement. And charge states:
You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). You must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can't charge. If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge. Helpless creatures don't stop a charge.
So, it should stop the charge (as per the game effect charge) at the first square. They may continue to move through it if they wish, but would no longer gain the benefit of the charge maneuver.
I do beg to differ on one point. It should stop the charge since it forces you to 1/2 speed, thus hampering your movement. And charge states:...
You are right, of course. I mistakenly thought that The movement penalty was tied to "difficult terrain" specifically, saw your post, and tried to edit my ignorance before anyone saw it. TOO SLOW
If a readied action creates an impediment to movement, the moving character is in no way obligated to continue that movement. An army wouldn't be compelled to charge lemming-like through a meat grinder because they had somehow 'committed' to making a charge, any more than they would be compelled to charge into a yawning crevasse, or a conjured field of magma.
No, they wouldn't tumble helplessly through an extra dozen feet taking damage. Spike stones doesn't trip people or horses. It doesn't unhorse riders. It doesn't force people to continue moving forward, taking damage. It doesn't do any of those things. What, in the description of the spell, leads you to believe it does so many extra, beneficial things that are not described in the text?
Unlike a crevice or a "conjured field of magma" one cannot so readily see a field of spiked stones. People don't not charge just because there is an invisible wall in their way. No. they run smack into it. Why? Because they didn't know it was there!
You're right, they aren't lemmings (which aren't suicidal despite their reputation). They are unfortunate soldiers who fell into a deadly trap.
It's the same premise here. Also, the soldiers likely would tumble down the hill if their steeds took enough damage from the spell effect to die, thereby throwing their riders down the sloped surface.
This is NOT cowboys and Indians. The GM does NOT get to say "they don't charge" just because I readied a spell that triggered on their charge. That's no better than a player telling the GM that the arrow didn't in fact hit his AC when it clearly does.
If a readied action creates an impediment to movement, the moving character is in no way obligated to continue that movement. An army wouldn't be compelled to charge lemming-like through a meat grinder because they had somehow 'committed' to making a charge, any more than they would be compelled to charge into a yawning crevasse, or a conjured field of magma.
No, they wouldn't tumble helplessly through an extra dozen feet taking damage. Spike stones doesn't trip people or horses. It doesn't unhorse riders. It doesn't force people to continue moving forward, taking damage. It doesn't do any of those things. What, in the description of the spell, leads you to believe it does so many extra, beneficial things that are not described in the text?
Unlike a crevice or a "conjured field of magma" one cannot so readily see a field of spiked stones. People don't not charge just because there is an invisible wall in their way. No. they run smack into it. Why? Because they didn't know it was there!
You're right, they aren't lemmings (which aren't suicidal despite their reputation). They are unfortunate soldiers who fell into a deadly trap.
It's the same premise here. Also, the soldiers likely would tumble down the hill if their steeds took enough damage from the spell effect to die, thereby throwing their riders down the sloped surface.
This is NOT cowboys and Indians. The GM does NOT get to say "they don't charge" just because I readied a spell that triggered on their charge. That's no better than a player telling the GM that the arrow didn't in fact hit his AC when it clearly does.
You didn't answer my question. Nowhere in the spell description does the spell say that enemies within the spells area are tripped, that their mounts are tripped, that they are forced to continue over the full area of the spell effect, or anything of the sort. Why did you think that the spell did all those things?
This is NOT cowboys and Indians. The GM does NOT get to say "they don't charge" just because I readied a spell that triggered on their charge. That's no better than a player telling the GM that the arrow didn't in fact hit his AC when it clearly does.
So, in your game, every character that begins a charge continues moving mechanically forward, regardless of what might interrupt that action? Every soldier would continue charging into, say, a readied create pit spell? One after the other, until the pit was choked with horse corpses? Cool story.
What about regular movement? If a player says I'm gonna move over and attack that caster BOOM READIED SPIKE STONES, is the player still forced to continue step after step through the field of stoney blades? At what point does the player regain mental control of his character? Dominate monster notwithstanding, the players and NPCs in the game aren't forced to behave like suicidal masochists.
The spell doesn't force people to walk across it's whole area. It doesn't force horses to walk across it's whole area. It doesn't trip horses, or unhorse riders. It doesn't force dangerous "tumbling." It doesn't do it on a hill, it doesn't do it in a shack. It just doesn't do it, mac. It doesn't do it with a cup, it doesn't do it with a spork. It doesn't do it, Ravingdork.
You didn't answer my question. Nowhere in the spell description does the spell say that enemies within the spells area are tripped, that their mounts are tripped, that they are forced to continue over the full area of the spell effect, or anything of the sort. Why did you think that the spell did all those things?
I never said it tripped anybody. Nor did I say they would continue over the full area of the spell. You did.
I proposed that the charge would not stop before it started (because the cavalry did not know the trap was there), that the charge would not come to an immediate halt due to their momentum (the charge rules say you must charge to the nearest square from which you can attack*), and that the riders might be thrown off their steeds when their horses died from damage and (gravity being what it is) might continue to slide down the hill.
It's not the spell that keeps them going, it's the circumstances. Natural momentum combined with gravity on a slope of invisible razors theoretically makes for a lot of carnage. Any GM who doesn't think this might be a logical conclusion to this scenario is likely an overt gamist who imagines hp totals appearing over the PCs heads like in WoW, and not a true roleplayer who likes a dynamic, believable tabletop roleplaying game.
So, in your game, every character that begins a charge continues moving mechanically forward, regardless of what might interrupt that action? Every soldier would continue charging into, say, a readied create pit spell? One after the other, until the pit was choked with horse corpses? Cool story.
If it was the result of a readied action, then yes. The entire front line of the chargers would fall victim to the pit suddenly appearing at their feet. The second line might fall in too. The third line likely would be able to stop in time. Momentum can be a b1tch.
If a pit was created WITHOUT a readied action, it is unlikely anyone would charge into it.
It's a matter of timing, you see.
Oh right, lemme look up those rules you cited on players being stuck in charge regardless of what happens to interrupt. Oh wait, you didn't cite any. (in fact, under the ready action, it says that the interrupted player 'continues their actions' not 'The DM takes over for the rest of their turn') How about those rules about tumbling down hills? Nope, you didn't cite any there, either. Gravity, circumstances, momentum? Invisible razors? Nope, no rules cited.
These are houserules. These are things you do in your game. Which is fine, but why are you clogging up the Rules Questions board with your conjectural houserules? There's a whole board dedicated to houserules.
Look, there's nothing wrong with wanting to create new rules to increase verisimilitude in your game. You can create rules for having your horse throwing you down a hill, or the momentum created by charging characters, or the conductivity of the dew on the grass makes that Lightning bolt just a little more effective. It's fine, but when you try and turn your discussion of why massed charges might fall down a hill, and phrase it as if it were an actual rules question dealing with a very specific spell, you're just yanking people around.
You already know the spell spike stones doesn't have any existing rules for how the spell works in your highly specific circumstance. Don't pose the question just to draw people into hashing out your houserules for you, man.
My take on the situation is that after the readied spell was cast, the charging folks would take the movement damage for 1 square and have the option to stop. They would however have 'used' a move action (because they traveled distance) and would only have a standard/move left if they wanted to do something else.
My take on the situation is that after the readied spell was cast, the charging folks would take the movement damage for 1 square and have the option to stop. They would however have 'used' a move action (because they traveled distance) and would only have a standard/move left if they wanted to do something else.
Of course that's would happen. A cursory examination of the spell, the charging rules, and the rules regarding the ready action make that clear.
Oh right, lemme look up those rules you cited on People being stuck in charge regardless of what happens to interrupt. Oh wait, you didn't cite any. (in fact, under the ready action, it says that the interrupted player 'continues their actions' not The DM takes over for the rest of their turn) How about those rules about tumbling down hills? Nope, you didn't cite any there, either. Gravity,...
If someone charges into an invisible wall they didn't know was there, they suddenly don't get their full round action back. Had they walked into it (a move action), sure they could expend their additional actions as they wished, but they still wouldn't get that move action back.
Rules can't possibly cover everything. To say that momentum doesn't exist or gravity doesn't exist in the game simply because their aren't rules covering every situation in which they should apply is a logical fallacy.
The game's rules were created to emulate fantasy adventure. We don't create the fantasy adventure to conform to the rules. Where the two conflict, rules will lose every time.
I can't imagine a GM, aside from you perhaps, that would say a charging cavalry could not be possibly thrown from their mounts to great calamity when they stumble into an invisible trap, at high speeds, while charging down a hill. BECAUSE THAT WOULD BE TOTALLY INSANE TO BELIEVE!!!
You don't need rules to come that conclusion. But hey, since you asked for some, here are a few that might apply in this situation:
- Charging
- Falling Rules
- Mounted Combat Rules (specifically, the risk of falling off a dying mount)
- The Most Important Rule (because no rule set is perfect or wholly comprehensive)
My take on the situation is that after the readied spell was cast, the charging folks would take the movement damage for 1 square and have the option to stop. They would however have 'used' a move action (because they traveled distance) and would only have a standard/move left if they wanted to do something else.
Sorry, but once an action is interrupted, it is spent. You don't don't get it (or another one) back.
This is not like attacking where you can make a single attack, then decide to move or proceed with a full attack.
Once you declare a charge and actually commit to it (moving forward) you cannot get that full round action back, you do not get to avoid the penalty to AC, even if you are stopped prematurely.
Note that if the spell is not readied, then it goes off AFTER the people charge, even if you're just holding your action. You specifically have to say 'Readying to cast <spell> if/when they charge'.
I know, it's a fiddly thing, but it's important. If RD was just holding his action, waiting to see what happened, and they charged, he could declare he was casting the spell, but their charge would be resolved first. The only way to interrupt would be to ready.
Beyond that, if it's readied and cast in response to the charge, I'd say they continue the movement until they can't/take damage, and then stop. If they'd only moved enough for a single move, then they'd have a move or standard left to move around it.
In the case of the one where they get a saving throw, those that make their throws to get through the area would keep charging (since the spell didn't affect them). That's if I read the spell descriptions above correctly, that one only slowed/did damage if they failed the save.
"Sorry" yourself. I was giving my take on the situation and how i'd handle it. If that's not what you want in the way of replies then i won't waste your time further. G'luck.
- The Most Important Rule (because no rule set is perfect or wholly comprehensive)
Dude, if you're gonna show me the part of the book that tells you it's okay to create houserules, I totally already know that. I know it's okay to make up rules for your game. There's a whole houserules board where people do nothing but talk about the houserules they use.
What I don't get is that you present your houserule discussion under the banner of "How does this easily read rule that I'm already intimately familiar with work? I'm looking for help interpreting it." No you're not. You know full well there are no rules in the incredibly limited space in the spike stones description hashing out what happens in the incredibly intricate scenario you're contemplating.
Look, lemme put it this way. Every soldier in your hypothetical army should theoretically have their own initiative, right? I mean, when I run a large group of orcs or whatever, they usually all go at once, but I know that's not the way it's 'supposed' to be done, by RAW.
So really, only one soldier should hit that trap at a time. Whichever soldier is highest in the initiative charges first, hits the trap, triggers the spike stones, hows your uncle. The rest of the soldiers, lower in the initiative, see this happen and avoid the whole magilla.
Is it "realistic," by your judgement? By my judgement? No, of course not. But if we're gonna discuss the rules, on the Rules Questions board, then we kinda need to start from a position where we agree to discuss the Rules, and not "verisimilitude," or momentum, or the angle of a dewy muddy hill and skittish mounts on a cold autumn day.
No, spike stones doesn't do the things you ask. It doesn't force horses or their riders to heedlessly and suicidally charge through it. It couldn't conceivably trap a whole army because the first guy in the initiative order would ruin the surprise for everyone. It couldn't cause extra rounds of tumbling damage because nothing in it's description says it does any of those things.
This is the Rules Questions board. This is the answer to your rules question.
If they'd only moved enough for a single move, then they'd have a move or standard left to move around it.
How is this even a common line of thought?
If something interrupted MY charge and I said "well I only moved part way so I still have a move or standard action left, oh, and I don't take the penalty to AC because I didn't actually charge" every GM I've ever met would cry foul, as would every player I've ever had the privilege of playing with.
For the GM to get away with such things is to set a double standard at the very least!
- The Most Important Rule (because no rule set is perfect or wholly comprehensive)Dude, if you're gonna show me the part of the book that tells you it's okay to create houserules, I totally already know that. I know it's okay to make up rules for your game. There's a whole houserules board where people do nothing but talk about the houserules they use.
What I don't get is that you present your houserule discussion under the banner of "How does this easily read rule that I'm already intimately familiar with work? I'm looking for help interpreting it." No you're not. You know full well there are no rules in the incredibly limited space in the spike stones description hashing out what happens in the incredibly intricate scenario you're contemplating.
Look, lemme put it this way. Every soldier in your hypothetical army should theoretically have their own initiative, right? I mean, when I run a large group of orcs or whatever, they usually all go at once, but I know that's not the way it's 'supposed' to be done, by RAW.
So really, only one soldier should hit that trap at a time. Whichever soldier is highest in the initiative charges first, hits the trap, triggers the spike stones, hows your uncle. The rest of the soldiers, lower in the initiative, see this happen and avoid the whole magilla.
Is it "realistic," by your judgement? By my judgement? No, of course not. But if we're gonna discuss the rules, on the Rules Questions board, then we kinda need to start from a position where we agree to discuss the Rules, and not "verisimilitude," or momentum, or the angle of a dewy muddy hill and skittish mounts on a cold autumn day.
No, spike stones doesn't do the things you ask. It doesn't force horses or their riders to heedlessly and suicidally charge through it. It couldn't conceivably trap a whole army because the first guy in the initiative order would...
If an army is charging in unison (as they tend to do) then the entire cavalry has likely delayed their actions until that of the member with that of the lowest initiative, at which point they all charge together. The situation you describe is absurd gamist theorycraft that NEVER actually appears in any real games anywhere. Call them house rules if you want, I call it "the way it was intended to be played."
If you feel this is an inappropriate forum for the topic, then please flag it as being in the wrong forum instead of dragging out this ridiculous debate of logical cause and effect versus absurd gamist scenarios.
If an army is charging in unison (as they tend to do) then the entire cavalry has likely delayed their actions until that of the member with that of the lowest initiative, at which point they all charge together. The situation you describe is absurd gamist theorycraft that NEVER actually appears in any real games anywhere. Call them house rules if you want, I call it "the way it was intended to be played."
If you feel this is an inappropriate forum for the topic, then please flag it as being in the wrong forum instead of dragging out this ridiculous debate of logical cause and effect versus absurd gamist scenarios.
Wait. Am I the one with absurd gamist scenarios? I'm not the one with the charging mounts on a steep hill with a perfectly readied spell.
Look. The army can delay all they want, but there is no "moving in unison" in Pathfinder. Movement is handled via Initiative, like so: "Characters act in order, counting down from the highest result to the lowest. In every round that follows, the characters act in the same order..."
Your scenario cannot occur as you describe. Spike Stones will never, never never, by the written rules of this game that you claimed to want help with, do this thing you desperately want it to do.
Did you think, maybe, check it out, just maybe, that a fourth level druid spell wasn't meant to be powerful enough to kill an army, no matter how perfectly circumstances lined up? And that maybe that was a good element of game design?
You seem particularly focused on saying "spiked stones can never do this thing."
Whereas I'm looking at it like "this thing can happen in the game."
You are focused on this individual spell, whereas I'm looking at the game as a whole. As I said before, it is a matter of circumstance.
If there is no hill, then what I describe cannot happen. If there is no readied action, or full round charge action being taken, then what I describe cannot happen. I never once claimed that spike stones "can do all of that" by its lonesome. I was merely trying to convey that a tumbling hurting cavalry would be a logical conclusion for a GM to come to given the situation described. I could be wrong, but it seems to me that you are stating that, that is not a logical conclusion for a GM to come to, and that it is further completely and totally illegal/impossible within the rules. This is what I disagree with. This is what offends my sensibilities.
I suppose you MIGHT be correct in that a large group of enemies cannot all go on the same initiative, per the RAW. Nevertheless, I discount that entirely as (1) the rules don't specifically prohibit it and (2) I know of no one who plays that way--indeed, I've encountered Paizo modules that allow enemy groups to go on the same initiative. After all, if you have 100 soldiers, and only a 20 sided die, some of them will HAVE to go on the same initiative count. It's simply not logical to make so many opposed rolls to determine who goes on 12.2 as opposed to 12.3.
Technically, by the rules, the way the charging army would work is this :
Cavalry units : We hold to initiative 1.
Cavalry Leader : I hold to initiative 1.
Initative 1
Cavalry Leader : I issue a charge command and charge my horse forward.
<perform charge and resolve>
Far left Unit : I follow the leader.
<perform charge and resolve>
Far left unit - 1 : I follow the leader.
<perform charge and resolve>
...
Far right unit : I follow the leader.
<perform charge and resolve>
Far left unit, row 2 : I follow the leader.
<perform charge and resolve>
...
Last row Far Right unit : I follow the leader.
<perform charge and resolve>
I know, it's silly. But it's also how the rules work. Same as the PCs, if they all hold to one, and PC A charges, then PC B, C, and D can't do anything until his action is resolved. Which means, they get to react to his charge action (including not stepping into the new magic pit).
EDIT : And this bit of rules frivolity is why I said I'd stop them as above, because once someone's hit the trap, everyone after them can choose to avoid it. Personally, I thought it was more fair to charge the rest of the cavalry a move action, to reward the player for good thought, but whatever, we can follow the rules to the letter if you like.
I suppose you MIGHT be correct in that a large group of enemies cannot all go on the same initiative, per the RAW. Nevertheless, I discount that entirely as (1) the rules don't specifically prohibit it and (2) I know of no one who plays that way--indeed, I've encountered Paizo modules that allow enemy groups to go on the same initiative. After all, if you have 100 soldiers, and only a 20 sided die, some of them will HAVE to go on the same initiative count. It's simply not logical to make so many opposed rolls to determine who goes on 12.2 as opposed to 12.3.
He is correct, and there's no need to make opposed rolls. They're all holding, they just hold until the next guy in line goes. See my 'far left to far right, first row, second row, last row' example above. They're holding their action to 1. They can choose to go in any order they want on 1. The leader goes first, then guy 2, then guy 3, then guy 4. There's no competition amongst them, they're allies. Same as if all the PCs held to 1, they can go in any order they want to at that point, they're all holding.
I think you'd scream bloody murder at the GM if he made you and the other PCs have roll offs to see who went first if you were all holding to 1. It's your decision who goes first. Same with the npcs.
I guess nobody cares for verisimilitude anymore. :(
Rather than believing half an army could charge into a trap before they knew what was happening, you guys will rather stick to the strictest possible letter of the rule, even though--to the game world itself--it defies all logic for only one man to fall into a trap even though he has a hundred or a thousand more all RIGHT BEHIND moving at FULL gallop. It doesn't matter that there is NO ONE IN THE WORLD that actually plays the way you describe. Oh no. Not in the slightest. All because the rules say what they say.
Roleplaying is dead. All that is left are the rules.
Congrats.
I quit.
/thread.
Technically, by the rules, the way the charging army would work is this :
Cavalry units : We hold to initiative 1.
Cavalry Leader : I hold to initiative 1.
Initative 1
Cavalry Leader : I issue a charge command and charge my horse forward.
<perform charge and resolve>
Far left Unit : I follow the leader.
<perform charge and resolve>
Far left unit - 1 : I follow the leader.
<perform charge and resolve>
...
Far right unit : I follow the leader.
<perform charge and resolve>
Far left unit, row 2 : I follow the leader.
<perform charge and resolve>
...
Last row Far Right unit : I follow the leader.
<perform charge and resolve>I know, it's silly. But it's also how the rules work. Same as the PCs, if they all hold to one, and PC A charges, then PC B, C, and D can't do anything until his action is resolved. Which means, they get to react to his charge action (including not stepping into the new magic pit).
EDIT : And this bit of rules frivolity is why I said I'd stop them as above, because once someone's hit the trap, everyone after them can choose to avoid it. Personally, I thought it was more fair to charge the rest of the cavalry a move action, to reward the player for good thought, but whatever, we can follow the rules to the letter if you like.
Look, that's a really good houserule. It's a logical streamlined way to handle massed combat, which games like Pathfinder aren't particularly good at (In fact they're downright woeful at it). But that's not how initiative works in Pathfinder. Each character in the initiative begins and ends his turn before the next character takes his turn. But we're still caught in this vortex where the question was about whether spike stones, a fourth-level Druid spell, could be used to kill or decimate a large mounted force due to large groups forced into crossing the spiked area, having their mounts collapse, and dump them on the spikes for another twelve feet or so. It can't, because a fourth level spell shouldn't be able to do that. It's good design.
OamuTheMonk: I'll say this last bit since your post obviously came in before you saw my "I quit post."
we're still caught in this vortex where the question was about whether spike stones, a fourth-level Druid spell, could be used to kill or decimate a large mounted force due to large groups forced into crossing the spiked area, having their mounts collapse, and dump them on the spikes for another twelve feet or so. It can't, because a fourth level spell shouldn't be able to do that. It's good design.
What you describe is not the spell becoming overpowered for its level. What you describe is a player using his spell tactically and effectively. That doesn't make the spell broken. That makes the player clever.
I suppose you MIGHT be correct in that a large group of enemies cannot all go on the same initiative, per the RAW. Nevertheless, I discount that entirely as (1) the rules don't specifically prohibit it...
The rules don't specifically prohibit ponies flying over the spikes, either.
And no, it's not logical to create a giant super-initiative for a large force of mounted soldiers. It's also not fun to run. Pathfinder is terrible at massed combat, specifically because of stuff like this. I get that.
Giving a fourth level spell the inherent ability to affect dozens of charging mounts, forcing those units to cross the whole deadly field, and tacking on a host of extra ramifications for those affected is not the solution to Pathfinder not being good at simulating mass combat.
OamuTheMonk: I'll say this last bit since your post obviously came in before you saw my "I quit post."
we're still caught in this vortex where the question was about whether spike stones, a fourth-level Druid spell, could be used to kill or decimate a large mounted force due to large groups forced into crossing the spiked area, having their mounts collapse, and dump them on the spikes for another twelve feet or so. It can't, because a fourth level spell shouldn't be able to do that. It's good design.What you describe is not the spell becoming overpowered for its level. What you describe is a player using his spell tactically and effectively. That doesn't make the spell broken. That makes the player clever.
Except that the tactical use requires going so far outside the rules that you may as well be playing a different game.
Sequential Initiative, the means by which every combat in Pathfinder is adjudicated, prevents this from occurring.
You might as well say that dropping a summoned whale on your foe is a "clever" way to defeat a powerful foe. But the rules in place prevent it from happening, because you can't legally summon non-flying creatures into open space. See how that works?
If you have to create new rules, rules that apply only to your "clever" thing, that's not clever. It's just not playing by the rules. You don't win chess by stealing the king when your opponent isn't looking.
In this kind of situation, typically, we "let the dice decide". The percentile dice might determine that 40% of the charging cavalry units are affected by spike stones; they in turn take the proscribed damage and since its a pain to do this per-individual for a large group, the GM would apply a flat roll to all of them.
The GM would describe all manner of chaos and falling, but that would be part of the description, no/little mechanical impact beyond that. The affected units would spend the rest of their round recovering (remounting and whatever). The non-affected units would still have a standard/move action.
That's how we'd play it.
In this kind of situation, typically, we "let the dice decide". The percentile dice might determine that 40% of the charging cavalry units are affected by spike stones; they in turn take the proscribed damage and since its a pain to do this per-individual for a large group, the GM would apply a flat roll to all of them.
The GM would describe all manner of chaos and falling, but that would be part of the description, no/little mechanical impact beyond that. The affected units would spend the rest of their round recovering (remounting and whatever). The non-affected units would still have a standard/move action.
That's how we'd play it.
A perfectly cromulent way of dealing with it. Do that many people have huge massed battles under the Pathfinder ruleset? It seems like more of a chore than fun.
Note, I did say it was a silly result. I'm not for ruining versamillatude. What I'm saying is, the rules work a certain way. Houserule them if you want. But that should be in the houserules forum. This is the Rules Questions forum, so the rules question answer is how the rules work. Silly as it may be.
If we're going to talk about house rules, I also like Lorekeeper's solution. Although I'd probably go with a percentage based on the percentage chance to get the reflex save (so if they had a 50% chance of making the save, then 50% of them make it). But that's neither here nor there.
Dork, you need to realize that in the rules forum, you're going to get rules answers. Silly or idiotic as they may be at times, they're RAW. Once you have the RAW answer, take the question and the RAW answer, and go put a post in the house rule forum on 'How would you people work around this stupid RAW answer'.
A perfectly cromulent way of dealing with it. Do that many people have huge massed battles under the Pathfinder ruleset? It seems like more of a chore than fun.In this kind of situation, typically, we "let the dice decide". The percentile dice might determine that 40% of the charging cavalry units are affected by spike stones; they in turn take the proscribed damage and since its a pain to do this per-individual for a large group, the GM would apply a flat roll to all of them.
The GM would describe all manner of chaos and falling, but that would be part of the description, no/little mechanical impact beyond that. The affected units would spend the rest of their round recovering (remounting and whatever). The non-affected units would still have a standard/move action.
That's how we'd play it.
Expedience and enjoyment are the cornerstones by which we play. Mass combat very rarely features in this.
We do have mass combat rules a la Kingmaker, of course.
My party did this to a charging army in a game. We had our backs to a river, and encircled our position with Spike Stones.
It was particularly hillarious, because, as the spell is undetectable to non-rogues who aren't currently detecting magic, our GM agreed that there was no reason the charging force would stop; they knew they were being cut to ribbons, but they had no way to knowing why or determining how. The spell specifically makes itself impossible to detect.
It was terrifyingly effective.
But, it was our entire groups opinion that there was no reason the attackers would not choose to charge (they can't see the spell, and there should be no way for them to know it would fail), and we agreed that as soon as their became illegal (halved movement), there actions became equivalent to a double move. They kept moving toward us because there is no way for them to determine what is hurting them (and they were too frenzied to try and reason it out).
A baby will remove its hand from a hot oven plate even though it has no way of knowing that it will still burn in a second. So I don't really reckon the reasoning is all that solid on a charge's effort continuing - but on the other hand, there might be very good reasons to keep on pushing.
Though, the trap of the spike stones isn't detectable in advance, it is readily apparent once the trap is actually sprung. Only rogues have the possibility to detect it in advance, but once it has happened, well, its fairly obvious.
Though, the trap of the spike stones isn't detectable in advance, it is readily apparent once the trap is actually sprung. Only rogues have the possibility to detect it in advance, but once it has happened, well, its fairly obvious.
Uh...
"Magic traps such as spike stones are hard to detect. A character with the trapfinding class feature (only) can use the Perception skill to find spike stones. The DC is 25 + spell level, or DC 29 for spike stones."
I found that. There is nothing in that to indicate that detecting it is any easier after its started effecting things. Certainly, without Trapfinding, it says you cannot find the Spike Stones via Perception. And the fundamental nature of the trap in this case doesn't change on, so I dont know why it'd suddenly become noticeable unless you took the time to sit down and examine everything, and even then you'd fail without Trapfinding (because it says so).
We did agree that Knowledge (arcana), Spellcraft, or the ability to detect spell effects (Detect Magic/Arcane Sight) might allow someone to puzzle out what was going on or identify the likely spell effect, but our enemies were both caught up in a Frenzy and had no access to either the skills or the spells required.
If you couldn't detect/sense the trap, then it couldn't hurt you. It hurting you is coupled with sensory details such as pain.
Simple example: a rogue can detect (without triggering) a symbol of pain trap. Anybody can (in fact has to) see it once it is triggered.
Unlike a crevice or a "conjured field of magma" one cannot so readily see a field of spiked stones. People don't not charge just because there is an invisible wall in their way. No. they run smack into it. Why? Because they didn't know it was there!
And they would ride straight into the Spike Stones and stop immediately, just like if they ran into a wall. They could not keep charging through the Spike Stones anymore than they could keep charging through the invisible wall.
This is NOT cowboys and Indians. The GM does NOT get to say "they don't charge" just because I readied a spell that triggered on their charge. That's no better than a player telling the GM that the arrow didn't in fact hit his AC when it clearly does.
You're right, they would charge. And then their charge would become invalid after a single square of movement into the Spike Stones, which would end their turn.
I proposed that the charge would not stop before it started (because the cavalry did not know the trap was there), that the charge would not come to an immediate halt due to their momentum (the charge rules say you must charge to the nearest square from which you can attack*), and that the riders might be thrown off their steeds when their horses died from damage and (gravity being what it is) might continue to slide down the hill.
The charge would have to stop because you cannot charge through the Spike Stones. You don't have to know you can't charge for you to be unable--you just have to be unable. Spike Stones prevents the charge.
So, they will start charging, they will hit the spell, and their charge will stop. They will take one square of damage, which ends the charge, and their turn will be over because their action became impossible to take. Done.
If that one square of damage is enough to kill the horse, I agree that if they failed their Riding rolls, it is certainly possible that they would tumble down the hill. However, it seems exceedingly unlilkely that one square of damage will be enough, and it would be physically impossible for them to take more than one square because their charge would become invalidated as soon as they entered the area.
Any GM who doesn't think this might be a logical conclusion to this scenario is likely an overt gamist who imagines hp totals appearing over the PCs heads like in WoW, and not a true roleplayer who likes a dynamic, believable tabletop roleplaying game.
Or a GM who follows the rules. If my imagined vision of the scenario conflicts so greatly with the rules, I don't say, "The rules be damned!" I say, "Hmm, my vision of this might be inaccurate--how can I change what I see to more closely fit the rules?"
The rule saying you cannot charge through an obstacle assumes that (1) you are aware of the obstacle and (2) you have not yet taken the charge action.
This misunderstanding here is why you would even have a question about this issue. The rule does not assume you are aware of the obstacle. The rule simply states under what circumstances charging is impossible. So, you might think you can charge and declare a charge, but as soon as you hit the thing that stops charging, your charging stops.
And, for simplicity's sake, there is no inertia in Pathfinder movement. You could add some, sure, but it's not part of the rules. I mean, if someone moves and is tripped by an AoO, do you rule they go skidding since they were moving already? Do you have a problem when a monk moves 60' and then stops on a dime in front of a monster before hitting it?
I would accept a house rule about momentum or something on the hill, but it's not part of the base rules. By the rule, the Charge would simply stop, and like all other movement in the game, it would stop on a dime with no ill effects.
If it was the result of a readied action, then yes. The entire front line of the chargers would fall victim to the pit suddenly appearing at their feet. The second line might fall in too. The third line likely would be able to stop in time. Momentum can be a b1tch.
If a pit was created WITHOUT a readied action, it is unlikely anyone would charge into it.
It's a matter of timing, you see.
And that is a fine house rule, but it is a house rule. By the actual rules of the game, the charging characters would make a Reflex save to avoid the pit--the timing of the action does not magically remove the save.
I guess nobody cares for verisimilitude anymore. :(
A wizard did it! Literally! My verisimilitude is not harmed by anything related to magic.
Rather than believing half an army could charge into a trap before they knew what was happening, you guys will rather stick to the strictest possible letter of the rule, even though--to the game world itself--it defies all logic for only one man to fall into a trap even though he has a hundred or a thousand more all RIGHT BEHIND moving at FULL gallop.
Actually, the entire front line would step one square into the trap, because none of them could see that there were spike stones in front of them. But the second line would be fine, because the front line's movement would all immediately stop because their charge would become invalid.
Also, keep in mind that the "full gallop" thing means nothing to the rules. If someone on horseback charges someone with a lance, do you require that they use their next turn's movement riding past the guy they charged because horses can't stop on a dime? No, of course not--thet's not how the game treats movement.
It doesn't matter that there is NO ONE IN THE WORLD that actually plays the way you describe. Oh no. Not in the slightest. All because the rules say what they say.
Quite obviously, lots of people play that way--for example, anyone who contradicted you in this thread.
Roleplaying is dead. All that is left are the rules.
Remember, this is a Roleplaying Game. The Game part matters, too. The rules are part of roleplaying games and always have been.
If you couldn't detect/sense the trap, then it couldn't hurt you.
It hurting you is coupled with sensory details such as pain.
That is detecting the effects of the trap, not the trap itself. You dont have to see something for it to hurt you (IE, a Invisible Creature can cast spells with harmful effects without being detected by you).
Simple example: a rogue can detect (without triggering) a symbol of pain trap. Anybody can (in fact has to) see it once it is triggered.
Specifically covered in how Symbols work.
"Magic traps such as symbol of death are hard to detect and disable. A rogue (only) can use the Perception skill to find a symbol of death and Disable Device to thwart it. The DC in each case is 25 + spell level, or 33 for symbol of death."
It specifically notes that a rogue can use Perception to find it and thwart it; not that it can't be found otherwise, as specifically stated by Spike Stones. As is noted in the spell description, it being seen is in fact how it works. This overrides other general rules about how traps work.
A baby will remove its hand from a hot oven plate even though it has no way of knowing that it will still burn in a second. So I don't really reckon the reasoning is all that solid on a charge's effort continuing - but on the other hand, there might be very good reasons to keep on pushing.
But what if the baby was charging the hot plate? Wouldn't the baby be forced to complete it's charge action by crawling over the entirety of the hot plate? What if I readied to put the hot plate under the baby during it's charge action? It'd be stuck, right? What if there was an army of babies, all charging down a hill made of blankets, in unison? Wouldn't then, if I readied an action to put a hot plate under those babies, wouldn't all the babies be forced to crawl across the whole plate, since they were all charging? What if the blanket hill was really steep, and each baby was carrying a smaller baby on it's back? Wouldn't then, maybe, just maybe each unit in the baby cavalry take full damage for crossing every square of that hot plate, as the lower babies topple over, dumping the smaller rider babies onto the hot plate, where they'll tumble across another twelve feet of the hot plate?
I mean, that just seems like a clever way to fight off baby cavalry, using a hot-plate. No, you're absurd.
Not to mention that the baby cavalry will pretty soon be riding over the bodies of their fallen comrades. Fortunately at that point in time they'll not take damage anymore, since their fallen comrades are buffering them trap - though they'd still be unable to charge, as their fallen comrades effectively make it difficult terrain.
Of course, a baby would endeavor to not be on the hot plate, irrespective of how it got onto it in the first place (by wandering in the aimless baby way, or by malicious use of readied action).
And yes, somebody that charges may, at any point in time during the charge, decide that it is a bad idea and stop the charge. Nothing compels a charge to be completed to its end.
Not to mention that the baby cavalry will pretty soon be riding over the bodies of their fallen comrades. Fortunately at that point in time they'll not take damage anymore, since their fallen comrades are buffering them trap - though they'd still be unable to charge, as their fallen comrades effectively make it difficult terrain.
Of course, a baby would endeavor to not be on the hot plate, irrespective of how it got onto it in the first place (by wandering in the aimless baby way, or by malicious use of readied action).
And yes, somebody that charges may, at any point in time during the charge, decide that it is a bad idea and stop the charge. Nothing compels a charge to be completed to its end.
Still, you have to account for the fact that your hot-plate in these cases are invisible and undetectable. All thats detectable is that something is causing is causing someones feat and hands to become very, painfully hot. Working that out mid charge is probably not going to be particularly easy or convenient.
There is nothing distinguishing a hot plate from a not-hot plate, other than the sensation of hurt. Except if you have infra-red vision (or a rogue's trapfinding ability of course). The basic response to any unidentified source of pain is the assumption that it is location based. As I pointed out, even a baby manages to grasp that; hence it pulls its hand off the hot plate.
There is nothing distinguishing a hot plate from a not-hot plate, other than the sensation of hurt. Except if you have infra-red vision (or a rogue's trapfinding ability of course). The basic response to any unidentified source of pain is the assumption that it is location based. As I pointed out, even a baby manages to grasp that; hence it pulls its hand off the hot plate.
I suppose I should have been more specific on the issue, my bad; there is nothing in this situation that indicates that proceeding is any more or less dangerous than retreating or standing still. The target (assuming a baby, or anything with arcane senses or skills), short of metagaming, cannot know that continuing forward will continue to hurt him (though after multiple squares he might notice a pattern), nor can he know that staying still makes him safe or that retreating wont also hurt him. Deducing any of those things would require a Knowledge Check (Arcana, most likely), careful observation on others progress through the spell effect, or the ability to see the spell effect.
I suppose I should have been more specific on the issue, my bad; there is nothing in this situation that indicates that proceeding is any more or less dangerous than retreating or standing still. The target (assuming a baby, or anything with arcane senses or skills), short of metagaming, cannot know that continuing forward will continue to hurt him (though after multiple squares he might notice a pattern), nor can he know that staying still makes him safe or that retreating wont also hurt him. Deducing any of those things would require a Knowledge Check (Arcana, most likely), careful observation on others progress through the spell effect, or the ability to see the spell effect.
None of this is relevant because the Charge would become invalid and the action canceled. Maybe next turn the horses might try to proceed, but they'd completely stop after one square of spikes on the turn they declared charges.
I suppose I should have been more specific on the issue, my bad; there is nothing in this situation that indicates that proceeding is any more or less dangerous than retreating or standing still. The target (assuming a baby, or anything with arcane senses or skills), short of metagaming, cannot know that continuing forward will continue to hurt him (though after multiple squares he might notice a pattern), nor can he know that staying still makes him safe or that retreating wont also hurt him. Deducing any of those things would require a Knowledge Check (Arcana, most likely), careful observation on others progress through the spell effect, or the ability to see the spell effect.There is nothing distinguishing a hot plate from a not-hot plate, other than the sensation of hurt. Except if you have infra-red vision (or a rogue's trapfinding ability of course). The basic response to any unidentified source of pain is the assumption that it is location based. As I pointed out, even a baby manages to grasp that; hence it pulls its hand off the hot plate.
Ah yes, you're correct. In the case of a mass charge of baby-mounted baby-cavalry, the appropriate response from a simulationist point of view is that some keep charging, some stop, some turn around. A GM that wants to flatten the options can random roll for the behavior of any number of subsets of the charging units including using a single roll for the entire set, if he wishes to be expedient.
I would wager that charging units *not* yet in the AOE of the trap have a very good chance of stopping dead in their tracks and re-evaluating its options. Unless they busy with babyian rage, in which case they'd charge on heedless!
None of this is relevant because the Charge would become invalid and the action canceled. Maybe next turn the horses might try to proceed, but they'd completely stop after one square of spikes on the turn they declared charges.
Its more complicated than that. Cancelling the charge imparts information the chargers aren't supposed to have; they've entered a spell effect they are incapable of detecting by touch.
Plus, lets look at this a second; "You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). You must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can't charge. If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge. Helpless creatures don't stop a charge."
So, the issue is this; the vast majority of theoretical army literally cannot charge. However, they dont know this; they can't, because thats them literally receiving divine inspiration to the effect of 'Something you dont know about stops this from being a legal action.' So whats a good, reasonable solution? Oh wait, a double move in a strait line! Movement wise thats indistinguishable, and you dont need to tell the mover about it until it becomes relevant, at which point stopping is an option if its something they could reasonably think up.
So the question is, are you really ok with the unflinchinly RAW situation (questionable, again, because they dont know they can't charge...) of a whole army worth of people spontaneously gaining knowledge they can't possibly know about the battlefield... or should the GM just wing it over to the next closest thing and resolve it that way?
Also note, that if you did rule that bodies (unlikely to have blead out on the low damage) piling up somehow insulated those moving over them from the spell effect (I dont think they do), they wouldn't stop the charge as they are helpless :)