Monk of the Sacred Mountain's abilities Iron Limb Defense and Bastion Stance say if they start and end their turns in the same spot you get there effects.
Now if i move during the turn and return to my starting spot im still fine correct?
second question, do i get their effects during my turn while im moving in between start and end of turn?
Asking cause im playing a Monk of Many Styles/Monk of the Sacred Mountain
with panther and snake styles so i move around provoke AoOs and smack the crap out of people when/if they miss
It only specifies beginning and ending in the same space--it says nothing about movement in between, so it works.
You do not get their effects during your turn, though. The effects kick in when you start and end your turn in the same space, so, well, it requires that you end your turn. Further, they only last until the beginning of your next turn. Thus, during your turn, the benefits are off.
Anyway, I see a lot of monks now focusing on the Panther thing, and I just want to warn you a bit. I can't really see that tactic working more than once per fight against intelligent enemies. Maybe other GMs disagree and their monsters swing every time they get a chance, but I don't understand why they'd keep bothering if they can't hit and just end up getting stunned or something in response. Especially considering that you're not really a huge threat when you're not running around provoking AoOs.
So what you're really saying is that intelligent people should ignore the enemy who hits them very hard in vital regions (in the case of stunning) every time they leave any kind of opening
Yes, I'm saying they'd stop leaving that opening, especially because the monk is totally non-threatening otherwise. They're only a threat if you try to hit them while they run around crazy-like.
Yes but they don't automatically know under what actions they create an attack of oppertunity.
Yes, they do. As soon as their attack provokes an AoO, they know why. There are no "secret" mechanics in this game. Enemies know why they provoked.
At best they'd get a sense motive check to understand how his fighting style worked.
I can tell I don't think I'd enjoy a game you were running if you think this is what would happen "at best."
Realistically though they don't understand his entire fighting style for at least a minute or so because since he has them provoking attacks of oppertunity when they don't normally, they have no idea what kind of things will leave these gaps. The best you could get from your argument is "they hunker down in total defense."
No, the best is "hey, when I take my AoO on him, he hits me back. It's that simple. I think this view is rather extreme and it seems contrived to make Panther Style better than it really is.
I believe the RAI (or the non-misinterpreted RAW) is that you cannot move from whichever space you started in. Period. If you do move at all from that space, then you lose the benefits. You can't just keep moving and going back to the same space to benefit from those abilities. That doesn't make any sense. Mountains don't move. That's the point. The only time I could see you returning to the same space anyway would be during a Spring Attack, but you're still moving from your original space and therefore losing the benefits. Unless you're going to make a roundabout back to your original space and only provoke AoOs without using a standard action. Either way, you're still moving and not acting very mountain-esque.
I think you're trying to read between the lines to get the most benefit.
No offence, I'm sure we've all been there now and then.
"If the monk starts and ends his turn in the same space"
Could be arguably read as; Doesn't say anything about moving.
Which is fair to say a possible way to read it, but I think we can agree it's not the intended way to use it.
The fluff of archetype reads as such:
Rather than spinning though the battlefield with the fluid motion of the river, he roots himself to the ground, as immovable and unshakable as the stones of the mountain.
Which, combined with panther style, is doing the exact opposite of the archetype fluff.
Raw: It mentions nothing about not moving, therefor it COULD work.
Rai: We know the whole fluff is not moving, therefor it SHOULDN'T work.
1. enemies do not automatically know what causes them to provoke. They can learn. But they do not automatically come with understanding of your abilities. Especially since this is such an odd type of combat.
I'm sorry, I see no basis in the rules for this attitude. I don't see any reason why, after taking an AoO against a moving monk and getting hit in response, an intelligent opponent would fail to make the connection that hitting the monk while he moves causes you to get hit. It's a really simple connection--I would even wager animals could figure that out (if I hit him while he moves, he hits me back), though I could at least understand someone claiming an unintelligent foe could be fooled a couple times by it.
2. you don't even know what an AoO is.
Yes, you absolutely do, or else you couldn't take them. This makes no sense. This is like arguing you don't know what a Fireball is when you cast it.
an npc has no clue what an AoO is just like a pc doesn't.
What? Why does a PC not know what an AoO is? Of course they know what an AoO is--it's hard wired into the fabric of their universe. They have to know what an AoO is.
You have no idea what will cause openings.
Really? Then why is casting defensively an option? Does that mean a Sorcerer has to take an AoO every fight from casting a spell in melee range because they don't realize they'll provoke? Why is tumbling to avoid AoOs an option? Do acrobats need to take a few AoOs from moving every fight before you allow them to tumble? A Fighter without Improved Disarm has no idea trying to disarm his foe will provoke an AoO? Really? You play this way?
And the idea that you learn what leaves an opening after the first strike back is just plain stupid.
I swing and you hit me back. If I swing at anyone else under the same circumstances, I do not get hit back. Thus, I know swinging at you under those circumstances causes you to hit me back. It's pretty basic reasoning any intelligent foe could make.
I can tell that you've had little martial training. I have basic military training in hand to hand combat and I can tell you people don't learn that fast in combat.
What kind of comment is this and what does it have to do with anything?
I'm sorry I don't think your Panther Style trick is all that amazing. If your GM lets you get away with it, then awesome, have fun. But I think it's only fair to warn other people that most GMs are not going to let that fly repeatedly.
"If the monk starts and ends his turn in the same space"
Could be arguably read as; Doesn't say anything about moving.
Which is fair to say a possible way to read it, but I think we can agree it's not the intended way to use it.
I think that if they really wanted the monk to stay still, they'd use similar wording to the Stalwart Defender's Defensive Stance.
If they did not intend to allow movement, it could instead have been written as: "If a monk does not willingly move from his square through any means (including normal movement, riding a mount, teleportation, or willingly allowing allies to carry him)..."
This version, the "starts and ends in the same square" thing, just about explicitly allows movement during your turn.
That doesn't mean it's a good idea to move, though. At least 75% of the time, it's going to be better to stay still and throw shurikens or something, rather than moving and losing your extra Flurry attacks.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
|
Requiring that a monk "must start and end his turn in the same spot" is pretty specific. If the designers had intended "does not move during his turn", that's a simply-worded condition, and different from what the text says.
A note, incident to the thread, is that the ability benefits are pretty keen. Enemy open up a pit trap under the party? The monk stays suspended in air until his turn.
Requiring that a monk "must start and end his turn in the same spot" is pretty specific. If the designers had intended "does not move during his turn", that's a simply-worded condition, and different from what the text says.
A note, incident to the thread, is that the ability benefits are pretty keen. Enemy open up a pit trap under the party? The monk stays suspended in air until his turn.
This.
I'd played this archetype (and others) recently and we ruled it the same way. The pit trap example is awesome, btw, and there was one or two weird interactions like that during the campaign that were pretty fun.
Might as well rename the archetype to Monk the Boomerang, seeing as 'return to your origin square' is well within the normal monk tactics, nor anything to do with mountains.
Guess this could boil down to a Gm fiat, as some are bound to read "Start and end in the same square." as not moving, while some need a more specific text like Stalwart defender.
Remember that the wording in Stalvart Defender is very much more specific, and probably got more attention than another Monk archetype (there is a buttload of them).
Might as well rename the archetype to Monk the Boomerang, seeing as 'return to your origin square' is well within the normal monk tactics, nor anything to do with mountains.
Guess this could boil down to a Gm fiat, as some are bound to read "Start and end in the same square." as not moving, while some need a more specific text like Stalwart defender.
Remember that the wording in Stalvart Defender is very much more specific, and probably got more attention than another Monk archetype (there is a buttload of them).
But see, the other issue discussed in this thread brings the trap hidden in this ability to the forefront.
If you are a monk, your priorities are:
1) Flurry in melee
2) Flurry with shurikens
3) If you can't flurry at all, move next to an enemy and use a maneuver that will facilitate your ability to Flurry next turn (Grapple is usually best, but Tripping might work in a pinch).
4) If you can't flurry and can't use a maneuver that will facilitate a Flurry next turn, then move as best you can and utilize your feats to limit your enemies movement options (Stand Still, Step Up, etc.) and hope you can still Flurry next turn
So, you see, by allowing a Monk of the Sacred Mountain to move, they're not actually leaving some awesome loophole open--they're actually leaving a trap open.
If you move, but end your turn where you began, you have done nothing but hurt yourself. All you've done is prevented yourself from Flurrying without putting yourself in any better position to Flurry next turn. It's a trick.
The Sacred Mountain is actually a pretty awesome archetype, since it supports what a monk should be doing, but I wouldn't take it personally, since I have an unhealthy love for Evasion and Improved Evasion.
Flurrying is the best thing a Monk can do and is where all the power in the Monk class resides. If you are not flurrying as much as possible, you are hurting yourself and your party.
Flurrying is the best thing a Monk can do and is where all the power in the Monk class resides. If you are not flurrying as much as possible, you are hurting yourself and your party.
No argument there. What we were mostly figuring out is whether it works that way or not, not so much as abusing that hole to insert some awesome tactic into it. I don't believe there is one for a monk.
|
No argument there. What we were mostly figuring out is whether it works that way or not, not so much as abusing that hole to insert some awesome tactic into it. I don't believe there is one for a monk.
Flurrying is the best thing a Monk can do and is where all the power in the Monk class resides. If you are not flurrying as much as possible, you are hurting yourself and your party.
Whether Monk of the Scared Mountain works this way or not seems irrelevant based on MPL's point about Flurrying... Monk's don't want to move in order to Flurry. If you take Sacred Mountain you should use the class features to stay in one spot and flurry away...
Regarding Panther Style: When I GM a game I play intelligent creatures the way PC's play their Characters. A Monk using Panther Style would get 1 AoO (2 max) before the baddies figure out to ignore him and do just that.
I encourage PC's to come up with & employ tactics in combat - and I make sure that the intelligent baddies do the same.
If a PC comes to me and says "this is what I want to do with my Monk" I'll tell them "this is what smart baddies are going to do if you try and do that".