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For my next campaign (though still awhile away) I plan on having the players start out at level zero. Im thinking they are going to be in a large goblin prison type thing and have to escape. Or possible slaves in a caravan.. really the possibilities are endless. It also depends on what adventure path I feel like using too (leaning towards Crimson Throne).
Im sure some people have run something like this before and wondering if anyone has some good insights or suggestions.
I think I would sort of organically figure out what class the PC's will end up with. There is a good chance they will all end up with 1 level of fighter and another level of another class. Or something along those lines. Maybe a bonus skill or feat that they would have actually have had to use.
My plan is to build a chart of sorts with a simple listing of classes, melee kills, what weapons were favoured, all those kinds of things.
Once the first few "child hood" sessions are done, ill assign the PC's a class based on their actions. Im even thinking assigning them 2 classes and letting them choose.
Yes, and watching 4 0 level charcaters having to dogpile a kobold was hilarious.
Yep, more than once, and we had a great time.
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I did a level 0 "pre-adventure" with my Crimson Throne group to build up some stability for character relationships after "that part of the first AP adventure where a lot of groups tend to wonder why they would stick together."
They were all kids, and I had them pick an NPC class (expert, warrior, etc) and they made level 1's (about as close to level 0 as you can get without putting a good deal of effort behind it or resorting to raw d20 rolls). They were all at least aquainted with each other if not out-right friends. A couple of them were Little Lambs and the other two were Korvosan townies (getting the players heavily invested in Korvosa and each other is Rule #1 for CotCT).
Anyway they had a hoot being low-power rowdy kids. Then we fast-forwarded to the start of the AP and they were grown up, had a common childhood experience, and it was sort of a "chance reunion" that brought them back together after spending so many years apart. CotCT is a great great AP for zero-level outings.
However, I would caution against restricting the PC's to any narrow assortment of classes or adding in the tallying headache of tracking which weapons they used and what skills they favored. A street urchin becoming a Wizard's apprentice is just as easy to fit into a back-story as the street urchin becoming a scoundrel of a rogue.
I think that if you started the characters off as level 1 commoners and had them advance from there it would be cool, and if the players are down for it, choosing their classes for them could be interesting - but, as a player, I wouldn't really be interested in that sort of thing.
Players are going to take whichever actions with their characters which fit their future class goal. So, dictating to them which classes they ought/have to play seems kind of pointless. Instead, after the introduction/childhood sessions are over, I'd suggest allowing them to choose their class (that is after you provide them with opportunities to engage in melee, practice some skills, and dabble in magic).
So yea, my main suggestion would be to provide varying sorts of encounters, and at least one which allows for a character interested in magic to experiment with it (a tattered spellbook as treasure during an encounter with a goblin shaman/mage might do the trick, for example). If you allow for only simple hack-n-slash encounters odds are you will end up will a group of fighters. So spice it up!
Note: This is a really good idea for building group cohesion. Each character in this group is going to have a definitive reason to ally with one another. A common background/experience will unite them, which often times proves most difficult.
Im wondering what is the best way to deal with a player that will want to be a wizard though. A sorcerer is maybe not so much an issue and possibly affords more interesting opertunities. Working a blood line story in from scratch would be all kinds of fun I think.
But a wizard could offer a few problems. Its doubtfull that a zero level characer would advance to wizard right away. It would most likely be something that would be a multiclass option I think.
Provided a destined-wizard encounters a spellbook, their 0-level "read magic" cantrip might kick in, allowing them to understand the runes and sigils found within the pages of the book.
Some quick study might provide more useful cantrips, and in a day's time or more, maybe a 1st level spell or two (if their Int is high enough at that point, of course).
However, I would caution against restricting the PC's to any narrow assortment of classes or adding in the tallying headache of tracking which weapons they used and what skills they favored. A street urchin becoming a Wizard's apprentice is just as easy to fit into a back-story as the street urchin becoming a scoundrel of a rogue.
I was thinking this could be a bit much too- but I have plans for the "first" level- or what Im thinking will be "free" .5 level type of deal. It will require a few custom rules but I think it will be worth it.
The kid game is going to last a few sessions (maybe 3) and cover quite a lot of ground to get them from this goblin / orc camp to Korvosa. The idea im running behind is after feeling like they have been on the run for so long, Korvosa will offer them up a few friendly people where we will go into a time lapse sort of thing and work out the classes for everyone.
The stuff ill be keeping track of (and not too closely either mind you) is going to end up as bonus abilities that they will be getting for free and a chance for them to make characters that will be slightly unusual.
I think that if you started the characters off as level 1 commoners and had them advance from there it would be cool, and if the players are down for it, choosing their classes for them could be interesting - but, as a player, I wouldn't really be interested in that sort of thing.
Yeah I realize this now. Im thinking ill scrap that and go with giving them bonus skills/feats based off what they did as kids instead.
I had a DM provide each character a demon spirit once. Was pretty cool to find out that a demon begins its life as a mortal, and that as they grow stronger they become immortal and gain all sorts of powers. Our characters discovered this... oh, and met our "demon selves." We could commune with them, in a sort of demi-plane of our own.
Was really fun. I had played a pyromancer-wizard whose demon soul was a chaotic and fiery individual. At times, when my character would get knocked out (reduced to 0 hit points), his demon-self would take over and burn things dooowwwnnn!
So when you say players are going to get extra-coolio-stuff, I say: +1!
But a wizard could offer a few problems. Its doubtfull that a zero level characer would advance to wizard right away.
If you are still considering CotCT then Korvosa's got you covered. The major arcane academy located in town is bound to have at least one good natured devil-binder associated with it that could (by a kind hearted GM of course :) ) take some interest in the player wishing to transcend their level 0 roots and start studying the arcane. In our case it was easier because we elapsed some significant time between level 0 and everyone meeting back up at level 1 so every other group's mileage will vary.
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Have you checked out Learning Curve: Apprentice-Level Characters from Tricky Owlbear Publishing?
It provides, among other things, a detailed method of playing 0 level (or, apprentice level) characters with the Pathfinder RPG rules.
From what you are describing, it sounds like Learning Curve might be just what you need :)
I've been thinking of a way to pull off 'child' or pre-adventuring characters for a while. Originally I proposed each player have a choice between NPC classes (warrior, expert, aristocrat and adept), and give each some small benefit to make up the difference. These would be true apprentice style characters who would need to make a choice later on (before 2-3rd level) which way they wanted to go. It seems obvious to me which PC classes they might take but what does everyone else think?
Warrior - paladin, ranger, fighter, barbarian?
Expert - bard, rogue
Adept- mage, cleric, druid, sorcerer
Aristocrat- anything but likely cleric
I supposed I would make the characters go to 'school' or otherwise take a mentor or apprenticeship before their first real PC class (and skip forward a few years). How would it work running the PCs as children, start them as commoners or even less skilled?
Also, what stat (penalties) might you apply to children that they could level as they aged?
You could be nice and give them a 'free' level in the NPC classes - so they start level 2 instead of level 1.
It would encourage them to invest in profession and related skills (you can make that arbitary) and knowledge (local) etc.
They get some extra HPs but with the exception of warriors wont get any AB. You can live with the saves bonuses or reduce them to half.
Yes, that's exactly what I would do - run them through their chilhood and early upbringing as an NPC class, give them suggestions (and gentle prodding) towards an opportunity to chose their PC class - does the warrior join the city guard, the ranger scouts or the paladin order, etc. This will also give them an investment in the town development. The only thing I might do is limit the aristocrat to medium armor instead of heavy for that first level.
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A friend of mine ran a campaign like this once. We all started out as Level 0 with no class. It was a roleplay-heavy campaign, and so whatever we did influenced what kind of class we could gain levels in. It was sort of like playing the Sims, except with D+D rules.
The real question is whether or not your players are going to enjoy this. It can be great fun if you've got the right group, but some folks just don't want to deal with this, or don't know how to handle it. Suppose somebody wants to be a Sorceror, or a Paladin? How exactly do you become one under this system? It's not obvious, and that chafes some people.
I'm thinking a war or similar conflict would be a good way to introduce an incentive to choose a class, something Iike conscription where the characters are forced to choose a calling. You would need to offer a range of mentors or opportunities for the characters to be promoted to full pc classes but you wouldn't need it to be one to one... the local priesthood could make clerics and paladins, the Druid circle rangers and Druids etc.
You shouldn't start them as slaves or such.
I have had good fun when starting at 0 level just beginning as young villagers. You are just studying the class you will soon become and may even have some minor features of that class, but mostly you do a regular job around the village. In the game I played in I was a nurse working in the militia infirmary(working toward thief built into a jack of all trades). The village was a border outpost nestled between barbarian lands and wild monster filled badlands. It had a small keep where the warrior type PCs worked, a small chapel with idols to the various deities in the pantheon, the town hall/local meeting hall, a druid/herbalist worked her small shop selling remedies and potions, and the various seasonal market stalls, oh and the outlying farms. We had family and friends, and everyone knew everyone else in the little village. We PCs would band together to undertake dangerous projects for the village or sometimes the King. We got to level in a completely organic environment. Each level earned us prestige and recognition, as we grew from adventurous brats to village leaders.
Oh my friends played a militia private, an apprentice scout, a novice acolyte in the temple, and a foreigner apprentice mage.
Like a few of the people here, I played in a game where we started off with NPC classes. We progressed to our PC classes after one or two sessions.
Say theres an out dated 3rd edtion adventure call HEROS ARE MADE NOT BORN that may help you. It is about simple town folk having to save one of their own from an ogre. That may help you its a goodman game product. The best way to feel for class levels ask your players what classes they see thier charcter having and at young age they feel calling in life. No matter what they do in a zero level they have a class and strong bond.
I've done this before, what I did was this :
6 + Con Bonus HP (Minimum for any class).
No Save Bonuses
+0 BAB
2+Int Skill Points (Minimum for any class).
If someone wanted to play a wizard/sorcerer/etc, then I gave them 0 level spells only (and half the number they normally would have at 1st level), and they were apprentices. I let each person pick one weapon they were proficient with, and no armor proficiencies (They were still learning to wear armor without penalties).
I gave them all the minimum starting gold allowed across all character classes (IE: Assume they roll all ones on starting gold).
When we advanced them to level 1, they got all their class abilities, and upped their HP if they chose a class that had a higher hit die. Added bonuses, BAB if applicable, and skill points if applicable.
I was going to run a game where people grew into their heroes. It's a little rules heavy, but I was gonna consider their roleplaying too. To me good roleplaying trumps everything. But this was my loose system. Also it was still a work in progress. I got carried away with the stats I think. I would probably just do a std point buy. Maybe 10 to start and 5-10 more once they get their actual class.
Anyway here are my janky rules lol.
Player starts with a weighted 5 point buy.
Example starting stats: (13,12,10,10,10,10), (12,12,12,10,10,9), (14,10,10,10,10,10), (14,12,10,10,10,8), (14,13,11,10,8,8)
Each player can select two favored stats (One each for level 1 and 2).
A player cannot select the same favored stat twice.
The available stats for each class are in parenthesis.
Each one is chosen per level. (First stat at 1, and second at 2)
Each Favored Stat gets a +4 bonus.
Each player gets two +2 wildcard stats (Each obtained upon gaining a favored stat. Can't be used on a pre-racial 16, unless its favored)
Max 18 per stat (pre-racial) still applies.
A Player can only have one 18 (pre-racial). This does not limit future stat gains from allowing a second or third 18.
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Warrior(Str, Dex, Con)/Warrior -> Barbarian, Cavalier, Fighter, Monk, Samurai
Expert (Dex, Int, Cha) -> Ninja, Ranger (Non-Casting Archetype), Rogue
Adept (Int, Wis, Cha) -> Alchemist, Cleric, Druid, Oracle, Sorcerer, Summoner, Witch, Wizard
Commoner (Str, Con, Wis) -> Fighter, Monk, Rogue
Warrior/Commoner -> All listed in either class
Warrior/Expert -> All listed in either class
Warrior/Adept -> All listed in either class, Magus, Paladin, Ranger
Expert/Adept -> All listed in either class, Bard , Monk, Ranger
Expert/Commoner -> All listed in either class
Adept/ Commoner -> All listed in either class, Bard, Magus
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Buying off NPC classes. (Still was unsure about this tbh, might be a little steep and stall the game a little. Maybe instead just let them change out their npc classes 1 for 1 for free as they level to 3 and 4. Alternatively you could also lower the exp buyoff.)
To buy off your first level NPC class, you must be level 3. This costs 1000 experience points.
To buy off your second level NPC class, you must be level 4. This costs 2000 experience points.
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Have been giving this some thought and we're approaching it from similar angles. I was thinking about a small point by as you've suggested, starting the child characters with no skills. Moving forward approximately a 'season' at a time they earn a skill and a small stat bonus once they've decided what they wanted to do that season. I would also give them an opportunity to ply a trade, craft, profession or perform to earn money in between. A small adventure once a year until they finally get their last skill and stat bonuses to put them right at level 1. When do you think the right time to apply the racial bonus to stats? The above works great as a solo session for each charcater particularly if they are demihuman where the times would match up. A human would develop a lot more in the years 13-16 than an elf or dwarf.
My suggestions on how to handle level 0 character, especially if they're supposed to be children, would be be...
6 hit points +con modifier. Upon attaining 1st level, they gain additional hit points equal to the difference of 6 and the maximum result of their 1st hit die. They are considered 1 hit die creatures.
BAB and all Base Saves start at +0, and are adjusted appropriately upon becoming 1st level.
They get 2 skill points, plus their intelligence modifier. They have no class skills. Upon achieving their 1st level in a character class, they are given additional skill points equal to the difference between 2 and the number of skill points their class grants per level.
1 feat. No additional feat is gained at 1st level.
Proficient with the dagger, the club, the quarterstaff, and crossbows (these are the only weapons that every class is proficient with. Anything else would result in them loosing proficiencies upon gaining their 1st level.
Say theres an out dated 3rd edtion adventure call HEROS ARE MADE NOT BORN that may help you. It is about simple town folk having to save one of their own from an ogre. That may help you its a goodman game product. The best way to feel for class levels ask your players what classes they see thier charcter having and at young age they feel calling in life. No matter what they do in a zero level they have a class and strong bond.
It's "Legends are Made, Not Born," for the record. :) I worked on a Pathfinderized version that I hope to run later in the year, either as a PBP here or a short campaign IRL (or both). The game has you play 1st level NPC class characters.
My plan if and when I run it--FWIW as an idea to the OP--is to have players create a character with 1 NPC class level, and when they are to "gain a level" (at about 500 XP), I plan to have them take 1 level of a PC class that "gestalts" with the NPC class. So they will still have 1 character level, but all class skills for both classes will be class skills and they will have the best hit die, saves, and BAB of the two classes.
From there on, they'd level as ordinary PCs--just take PC classes from there on (no more gestalting). But they'd have those little extra class skills and abilities that reflect their humble beginnings.
Only if you count writing my background as this. :)
I would play in that DeathQuaker.
