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Hi,
I am new at Pathfinder and this is my first time posting on these forums so please bear with me. I've gone over the rules and I am considering making a duelist but want to make sure what I am planning is within the rules. I like to number crunch and I'm pretty good at learning new rules, I've done a ton of reading already. Also do fencing in real life and making one in Pathfinder sounds really cool.
Anyway, here it goes - My DM has given us an array of 8-10-11-12-13-15 to place stats. These can be modified by the race of the character. I've picked human but an elf looks tempting as well. We are a new group with a new GM so the more that we stick to the core rules and the core book the better.
Using the product Hero Labs I've created a potential plan for a character up to level 11.
Ability Scores at level 11-
Str: 13
Dex: 19
Con: 11
Int: 12
Wis: 10
Cha; 8
I'd go up to Fighter to level 6 then go into Duelist to level 5 which is where he would get riposte.
Feats
Dodge
Improved Initiative
Mobility
Power Attack
Two-Weapon Fighting
Vital Strike
Improved Vital Strike
Weapon Finesse
Improved Critical (Rapier)
Weapon Focus (Rapier)
Weapon Specialization (Rapier)
Weapon Training in Light Blades.
Feats that seem good to take but I didn't have the room
Two Weapon Defense (This feat in particular goes with the character concept very well)
Toughness
Critical Focus
Greater Weapon Focus / Specialization (not enough figher levels)
I'd want to dual wield. For weapons either have two shortswords or a rapier+shortsword. I'm thinking rapier+shortsword is better for extra crit when the build finnally comes together. However shortsword+shortsword seems to be better for early levels and you do get a slightly better parry chance when you finally go into Duelist. If there are better weapons to use please let me know.
Potential Playstyle-
Before you hit Duelist you attack with both weapons. After you hit level 2 in Duelist you basicly never attack with your offhand - always choose to not use it for a parry. (Although I suppose there would potentially be situations if you were fighting a very weak enemy or a spellcaster and you 'had' to strike a hit or something).
As a quick aside, classical two weapon fighting often consisted of a main weapon and parry weapon, and this is what the character would essentially be doing.
Now the questions -
Since you are using the offhand to parry and you are never striking with your offhand with this cause Precise Strike to tigger even though the weapon is in your offhand? If you can't do this then this whole character falls apart and basically becomes worthless.
If you parry with the offhand I assume that you can strike with your mainhand for the riposte. If you can't then you would be limited to using two short-swords (with appropriate specializations).
Does Precise Strike trigger on the riposte, and I guess other attacks of opportunities? I would think that it would.
Vital Strike is a bit confusing as well. I believe it is meant to be coupled with a move action when you can't do a full-attack, but will it apply to your first attack of the round? What about attacks of opportunity? If it is only meant to be used when you move that is fine and I think I would still take this feat otherwise he'd do crap damage when moving.
Now lets check out some stats at level 11:
Giving him a few magical items - Belt of Dexterity +2 and Headband of Intelligence +2 with a Mithril Chain Shirt -
AC would be 20, with 16 for touch and 14 for Flat Footed.
A very nice +11 to Initiative (I think that is good anyway, this character should often go first in combat).
With non magic weapons Damage would be-
Rapier (main-hand) 1d6+9 with a threat range of 15-20 (assuming precise strike damage works the way I hope it does)
To Hit: +16/+11/+6
Shortsword (1d6+1) with a threat of 19-20 (but for all practical purposes not used for damage after you go into Duelist.)
To Hit: +15 (so basically a +15 on your parry attack rolls)
After level 11 there seem to be a bunch of things one could do, continue in Duelist, go back into Fighter, or even go into spellcasting to agument his fighting prowess.
Phew, I hope that this post is not too long winded and that I have used the appropriate duel and dual in the right place :). I've spent alot of time going over this and I hope that I haven't missed anything. Answers to the questions as well as comments and suggestions are most welcome.
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You want to dual wield? Have you thought about 6 levels of Ranger? You could get two weapon fighting and two weapon defense at 2nd and 6th level as part of the ranger package. You would also get two favored enemies and a favored terrain. If you have any idea of what to expect from the game you are about to play it would be very helpful picking say, favored enemy human, and favored terrain "urban" in an urban campaign. Worth talking about with your GM.
Also you may mention to the GM that the stat array he/she has provided only comes up as an "11" on the point buy calculator. Adventure paths are designed for a group of 4 at the 15 point buy level. Just thought I would mention that.
Well if you dont mind taking 2 lvls of monk (masters of many styles) grab snake style and snake strike with out preregs, you can then use ur off hand as a piercing attack cause of snake style and your hand is still empty so you can use all the class abilities and you can use the empty hand arch type or the two weapon fighting arch type plus you get AoO when people miss you thou you use your unarmed strike for the attack but hey its free attacks and if you find room you can use crane style as well to bump ur ac more. Oh and evasion is always a plus on top of plus 3 to all ur saves :)
there are two resources which could be of great help:
Agile weapon property and Dervish dance both let you add your dexmod to your damage instead of strength. Note that with dervish dance you can't even carry a weapon on the off hand (agile weapon can instead be placed on the off-hand weapon but gives you only half dexmod for that weapon).
Hope it helps
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I wouldn't bother about getting vital strike, in general the vital strike line is pretty useless as it only helps the damage die, not the constant damage modifiers you get, so your rapier would do 2d6+9 instead of 1d6+9, and only ever with the attack action, not charging, not spring attacks, not part of a full round attack.
The only time i could see vital strike being of any use is with a musket master gunslinger.
Thank you for the responses.
I've looked at the duelist from several different angles and to me the feeling is that unless you can parry with an offhand weapon then the duelist simply isnt worth taking.
Precise Strike-
"When making a precise strike, a duelist cannot attack with a weapon in her other hand or use a shield. A duelist's precise strike only works against living creatures with discernible anatomies. Any creature that is immune to critical hits is also immune to a precise strike, and any item or ability that protects a creature from critical hits also protects a creature from a precise strike."
Parry-
"Whenever the duelist takes a full attack action with a light or one-handed piercing weapon, she can elect not to take one of her attacks. At any time before her next turn, she can attempt to parry an attack against her or an adjacent ally as an immediate action. To parry the attack, the duelist makes an attack roll, using the same bonuses as the attack she chose to forego during her previous action."
Here was my thoughts and what I guess is hopeful thinking. Basically, because take the short sword offhand for the parry (never for attack damage) then the precise strike damage with the rapier occurs. The rules for precise strike say that you can't ATTACK with a weapon, not that you can't have one in your hand. However It seems as though the consensus is that this isn't allowed, but my 'feeling' is that it should be.
Hell, if take improved and greater TWF for additional parries would be pretty sweet but the ruling for parry explictly states 'elect not to take one of her attacks'. I could imagine taking no attacks and just parry/riposting everything, which would probably break melee combat :).
About vital strike, how would one do damage when you need to move? 3d6+9 at level 11 seems like it should be alright and I don't see a better way to do it. Is there something special about charge that I am missing?
From the core book-
"After moving, you may make a single melee attack. You get a +2 bonus on the attack roll and take a –2 penalty to your AC until the start of your next turn.
A charging character gets a +2 bonus on combat maneuver attack rolls made to bull rush an opponent.
Even if you have extra attacks, such as from having a high enough base attack bonus or from using multiple weapons, you only get to make one attack during a charge."
A +2 to attack doesn't seem that special.
I did look at ranger for TWF but it didn't really seem to be all that great in comparison to a fighter for the playstyle I ultimately wanted. You lose some feets and gain a tiny bit of spellcasting that doesn't seem to be all that good until you get into the higher levels of ranger, and ranger needs wisdom for the spells which would spread the ability points even thinner then they already are. I have not yet looked at monk options, but I will do so.
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About vital strike, how would one do damage when you need to move? 3d6+9 at level 11 seems like it should be alright and I don't see a better way to do it. Is there something special about charge that I am missing?From the core book-
"After moving, you may make a single melee attack. You get a +2 bonus on the attack roll and take a –2 penalty to your AC until the start of your next turn.
A charging character gets a +2 bonus on combat maneuver attack rolls made to bull rush an opponent.
Even if you have extra attacks, such as from having a high enough base attack bonus or from using multiple weapons, you only get to make one attack during a charge."A +2 to attack doesn't seem that special.
there was an errata on vital strike stating that it can't be used when charging or with spring attack
3d6+9 is nice, but it's not worth the two feats and you won't be doing that all the time
I did look at ranger for TWF but it didn't really seem to be all that great in comparison to a fighter for the playstyle I ultimately wanted. You lose some feets and gain a tiny bit of spellcasting that doesn't seem to be all that good until you get into the higher levels of ranger, and ranger needs wisdom for the spells which would spread the ability points even thinner then they already are.
you won't be going that far into ranger so having 11 wis to cast 1st spells is ok, and remember that you only need to have the spell list available to you to use wands
I know it's not really in line with your concept, but look at the dervish dance feat, it's really good for duelists
What would you recommend instead of using vital strike? A combat maneuver?