Questions about Kirin Strike (especially in relation to Alchemist Bombs)

[mplindustries]

I am fairly positive I can use Kirin Strike on the "direct hit" target of an alchemist bomb. My question: does it work on the splash targets?

Let's say you're facing two Ogres. You've identified the Ogre on the left using Kirin Style, and throw a bomb at the Ogre on the right. Can I claim twice my Intelligence mod as a damage bonus to the Ogre on the left as a swift action, since I hit him with splash damage? Or is "hit" strictly a "made a successful attack roll against a target" sort of thing in Pathfinder?

Bonus question #1) Still facing two Ogres. I've identified the one on the left with Kirin Style. Since both are Ogres, do I need to use a Swift action to identify the one on the right as well, or do I automatically get the Kirin Strike damage bonus against all the Ogres I'm encountering after one identification?

Bonus question #2) I see no reason why I can't, but I figured I'd ask. Now I'm facing an Ogre and a Troll. I use a swift action to identify the Ogre with Kirin Style. Next turn, I spend a swift action to identify the Troll. On my third turn, can I still get Kirin Strike's damage bonus against the Ogre, or did I "overwrite" my Kirin target by identifying the Troll? I.e., can I have more than one enemy during a given fight identified with Kirin Style?

Bonus Sub-question #3) If I can have either multiple targets identified or if I only need to identify one of several of the same types of enemies in the same encounter and I can deal bonus damage from Kirin Strike on splash damage from an Alchemist's bomb, then how many targets can I deal extra Kirin Strike damage to with my swift action? Is it one swift action per attack or per target? In the example above, if I have a pair of Ogres that are effectively identified standing adjacent and I hit one with a bomb, can I use my swift action to add twice my Int to both of them?

Edit question:
Actually, since my splash damage is equal to my minimum direct hit damage and Kirin Strike adds damage to the attack, do I even need to bother identifying splash targets? Does my extra damage from Kirin Strike automatically increase my minimum damage, and thus boost the splash?

[Kruggh]

Very interesting questions....

I d be interested about answers too if anyone has any :)

[HaraldKlak]

I am a bit torn about this. And I can't find RAW to support any answer.

Personally, I can't help but feel that Kirin Strike damage is precision damage. In which case it cannot be applied to thrown splash weapons. However there isn't RAW stating whether or not the feat adds precision-based damage, so it is a gut-feeling based on flavor.

On the matter of Kirin Strike vs. splash damage, I'd rule that it doesn't apply. The whole to-hit part is one argument, and furthermore the text of Kirin Strike mentions "creature" in singular.

On bonus questions 1 and 2: Yes, you need to identify both ogres if you want to get the benefits of the Kirin feats against both.
However nothing suggest that you cannot identify multiple creatures at the same time (not same round, but same combat), and the bonusses should remains, as long as you stay in the style and in combat with those specific creatures.

[Name Violation]

actually...

as a swift action after you have hit a creature with a melee or ranged attack, you can add twice your Intelligence modifier in damage (minimum 2).

and

Splash damage from an alchemist bomb is always equal to the bomb’s minimum damage (so if the bomb would deal 2d6+4 points of fire damage on a direct hit, its splash damage would be 6 points of fire damage).

might just mean everyone around the target gets a lot of extra damage too since the double int mod

too tired to debate this tho

[Dumb Paladin]

The bomb's minimum damage isn't changed, Mr. Violation. Kirin Strike is adding damage dealt, but it's coming from a separate source -- not from the bomb itself. The splash damage would stay the same.

[raven1272]

mplindustries wrote:

I am fairly positive I can use Kirin Strike on the "direct hit" target of an alchemist bomb. My question: does it work on the splash targets?

Let's say you're facing two Ogres. You've identified the Ogre on the left using Kirin Style, and throw a bomb at the Ogre on the right. Can I claim twice my Intelligence mod as a damage bonus to the Ogre on the left as a swift action, since I hit him with splash damage? Or is "hit" strictly a "made a successful attack roll against a target" sort of thing in Pathfinder?

Melee and Ranged attacks are both listed as standard actions in combat. A splash attack is listed as a special attack in combat. So, by literal interpretation, I assume that a ranged attack is not the same as a melee attack is not the same as a splash attack. Therefore a splash attack is neither a ranged attack nor a melee attack and does not qualify for the Kirin Strike at all. But, throwing the bomb itself does count as a ranged attack because it is a thrown weapon. So, the Ogre on the left is subject to the Kirin Strike because the bomb is a thrown weapon. And, the Ogre on the right would take normal splash damage without bonus of Kirin.

mplindustries wrote:

Bonus question #1) Still facing two Ogres. I've identified the one on the left with Kirin Style. Since both are Ogres, do I need to use a Swift action to identify the one on the right as well, or do I automatically get the Kirin Strike damage bonus against all the Ogres I'm encountering after one identification?

Kirin Style says you can spend a swift action to identify a single creature. The second Ogre is a second creature. So, no it does not count as an identified creature yet.

mplindustries wrote:

Bonus question #2) I see no reason why I can't, but I figured I'd ask. Now I'm facing an Ogre and a Troll. I use a swift action to identify the Ogre with Kirin Style. Next turn, I spend a swift action to identify the Troll. On my third turn, can I still get Kirin Strike's damage bonus against the Ogre, or did I "overwrite" my Kirin target by identifying the Troll? I.e., can I have more than one enemy during a given fight identified with Kirin Style?

Kirin Style says the bonuses last until you cease using the style. It also implies that it stops at the end of combat. So, as long as you don't switch styles and don't leave combat, you should be able to maintain multiple targets.

mplindustries wrote:

Bonus Sub-question #3) If I can have either multiple targets identified or if I only need to identify one of several of the same types of enemies in the same encounter and I can deal bonus damage from Kirin Strike on splash damage from an Alchemist's bomb, then how many targets can I deal extra Kirin Strike damage to with my swift action? Is it one swift action per attack or per target? In the example above, if I have a pair of Ogres that are effectively identified standing adjacent and I hit one with a bomb, can I use my swift action to add twice my Int to both of them?

Edit question:
Actually, since my splash damage is equal to my minimum direct hit damage and Kirin Strike adds damage to the attack, do I even need to...

See the first part. The splash damage should apply normaly. But I don't see how a splash attack qualifies for either a ranged or melee attack. So, Kirin Style doesn't apply.

[Vanderes]

I realize this is old but I have a question similar to this but not exactly.

I want to know if kirin strike adds to the effective splash damage or not, specifically for the purposes of the sticky bomb discovery. It makes sense that you can't deal kirin strike damage with splash because it's not an attack roll, but the wording for kirin strike is " you can add twice your Intelligence modifier in damage". I feel like since it says "add" and "in damage" means that you just amp up the attacks damage, and don't deal separate damage, because in this case as well with a melee attack the irin strike damage wouldn't be subject to DR separate from the original attack. furthermore I think it's safe to assume that the extra damage you do is the same type as the original.

All that is important for the argument that kirin strike does add to the effective splash damage of a bomb because the wording for splash damage is: "so if the bomb would deal 2d6+4 points of fire damage on a direct hit, its splash damage would be 6 points of fire damage". So, based on the wording of both I assume the bomb would deal damage on a direct hit as follows: 2d6+4+INTx2 instead of 2d6+4 and INTx2 ("and" and + not being interchangeable here of course) basically symbolizing that the damage isn't separate. So if a bomb dealing 2d6+4 deals splash damage of 6, would that bomb with kirin strike EFFECTIVELY deal 6+INTx2 in splash damage? So would the splash damage for sticky bomb go up?