I got everything down but the saves. How can I figure out the saves of an Old White Dragon?
Adult White (CR 10, HD 13) is 13/9/10
Old White (CR 13, HD 17) is ?/?/?
Ancient White (CR 15, HD 21) is 19/14/16
I know its based off of HD, and increase in Con and Wis will affect it just cant seem to get it. Best I can guess is 16/10/13. Does that sound right?
I got everything down but the saves. How can I figure out the saves of an Old White Dragon?
Old White (CR 13, HD 17) is ?/?/?
I know its based off of HD, and increase in Con and Wis will affect it just cant seem to get it. Best I can guess is 16/10/13. Does that sound right?
According to Table: Statistics Summary a creature with 17 HD should have a base +10 to his good save, and +5 to his bad saves.
Dragons seem to have all good saves, so the base should be +10/+10/+10.
Old Dragon ability scores are:
Old: Base +18, Base –6, Base +10, Base +8, Base +8, Base +8
The white dragon base ability scores are:
Str 11, Dex 16, Con 13, Int 6, Wis 9, Cha 6
Resulting in:
Str 29, Dex 10, Con 23, Int 14, Wis 17, Cha 14
Which modifies the saves to result in:
Fort 16, Reflex 10, Will 13
Which matches yours.
We might be missing an ability score increase between Adult (Base+10 HD) and Old (Base+14 HD) which could modify one of those saves? I don't know if that's taken into consideration on the Dragon Ability Scores table. (Which doesn't have a handy anchor link, grr)
stuff
Cool that is what I thought. Thanks Grick!
My only problem was that when I used the formula for the Ancient White my Reflex save came out to a 12 instead of the listed value of 14. Not sure why this is.
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Greetings,
Unfortnately they don't give a simple equation as they do for other dragon abilities.
The way that you go about calculating their saves is to look at Table 1-4: Creature Statistics by Type and Table 1-6: Statistics Summary in the Bestiary (pg 293). Table 1-4 shows us that Dragons have good saves in all catagories. Using that information we look up the dragons HD on table 1-6 and see that a 17HD creature has a base +10 for good saves. Once you have the base number then you just add your stat modifiers. So your white dragon would indeed have saves of 16/10/13.
Edit: Ninja'd by grick
My only problem was that when I used the formula for the Ancient White my Reflex save came out to a 12 instead of the listed value of 14. Not sure why this is.
Did you forget his Lightning Reflexes feat?
My only problem was that when I used the formula for the Ancient White my Reflex save came out to a 12 instead of the listed value of 14. Not sure why this is.Did you forget his Lightning Reflexes feat?
Bah you win, If i had seen that I would have understood.
Nice catch
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We might be missing an ability score increase between Adult (Base+10 HD) and Old (Base+14 HD) which could modify one of those saves? I don't know if that's taken into consideration on the Dragon Ability Scores table. (Which doesn't have a handy anchor link, grr)
Hit Dice: This shows how many additional Hit Dice a dragon gains over its base Hit Dice as it grows. Increases to Hit Dice grant extra hit points, feats, and skill ranks as well as increase the dragon's base attack bonus and base save bonuses. Dragons have skill ranks equal to 6 + their Intelligence modifier per Hit Die. A dragon's increases to ability scores for gaining Hit Dice are included in the total ability score increases (see the Dragon Ability Scores table).
We might be missing an ability score increase between Adult (Base+10 HD) and Old (Base+14 HD) which could modify one of those saves? I don't know if that's taken into consideration on the Dragon Ability Scores table. (Which doesn't have a handy anchor link, grr)
It's not accounted for - all the listed bonuses are even, but if it got an extra stat pre-assigned, one of them would be odd. Everything that modifies stats in PF does so by an even amount - IIRC there was a post explaining why at some point, but it boils down to "So that everyone benefits equally".
Also, based on whatever the base HD were, some dragons could get their bonus stat point going from Adult to Mature, and some from Mature to Old. So they can't include it for that reason too.
Edit: Based on dracomancer's quote, I see that dragons are an exception to the rule. Best to treat it as "Dragon hit dice don't grant +1 stat every 4 levels".