I have an important style choice to make.


Homebrew and House Rules


Pathfinder is as much Renaissance as it is Medieval, if not more so. I want to embrace this and take it further in my campaign setting, but I'm having trouble with an important style decision.

I'm torn between whether or not to have guns. If I do have guns, I want them to be common, not rare. If I do not, I plan to introduce buffed crossbows and a reskinned gunslinger.

What do I go with? Renaissance with longbows and crossbows as the ranged weapons of choice, or firearms that are replacing longbows but have yet to do so completely?

I'd go with what I prefer, but I like both equally, so I'd like to hear some input on this.


Do guns. That arcane gun image is teh awesomesauce. If nothing else, it is kind of new.

Dark Archive

Are you talking about having guns with out the Gunslinger (GS's from now on...) class just the feat and everyone can get a gun or are you talking about letting people come in as GS's? I have played 1 GS and have had several in my games and here is what i have seen.

Played- It was a high level (14th) bring in so it was built in a vacuum. It was extremely powerful. The full BAB and ranged touch attack with dex to dmg. Advance firearms make them even more so.

In my game - The below things were things to watch out for as they can change an encounter very quickly.

EX:
Targeting (Ex): a 7th level power can disarm, confuse, trip all with no CMD or ST allowed. Sure they have to hit the creature but with Dex as main stat and full BAB... easy money.

- Combine the disarm effect + Utility shot 3rd level power and you can disarm a boss and move it 15ft. away all at a distance As compared to a fighter using Gtr Disarm (who has to sink precise points into a non value stat INT to qualify for) while a GS uses his dex.

- X'4 crit very dangerous

All the above can be very encounter / boss / game changing

I allow them in some of my games but its on a game by game basis depending on your players... my group has alot of Min/Max guys.


i'm not sold on guns in pathfinder exactly, and how they're handled seems less than optimal from a story perspective.
allow me to explain: i'm currently writing a steampunk-scifi novel (no publisher yet, but my first manuscript is ready for a hefty edit) and as a result i've been doing a lot of historical weapons research. plate armour evolved from the need to protect valueble cavalry from early firearms, which in fact out-date it by nearly a century. as such, the inclusion of firearms gives me warm feelings because it completes the whole cause-effect cycle. But...
Firearms in Pathfinder ignore armour at close range, making even the heavy plate designed to protect from it redundent. on top of that, you're getting an attack every round no problem, as even a first level human warrior can get proficiency and rapid reload. while i understand it from an in game perspective, the fact is that a veteran musketman in the seventeenth century could fire off up to 3 rounds per minute, and that was considered impressive. i know it's not simulation, it's roleplay, but it still irks me.

if you'll let me make a suggestion, pick up a copy of the iron kingdoms players guide. that has awesome firearms in it, and for the most part it gives multiple shots the old fashioned way... with more barrels! in all seriousness i once designed a character in that with steam-powered battle armour and what amounted to a twenty-four barrel minigun strapped to one arm, just so he didn't have to get out and reload after every shot. it also required a craft (small arms) check to reload your weapon, quite reasonable for the complexity of the task and the conditions of a battlefield.

other than those minor niggles... go for it! guns are cool, and mysterious gunslingers who walk into town and have quickdraw duels are... hang on, what's the word for 'beyond awesome'? nevermind, i'll make one up. Mysterious stranger gunslingers are coowesome. no, that doesn't work, does it? i'll have to think on this...


The Pathfinder gun rules are awful. I wrote my own from scratch. I don't mind the gunslinger much, other than thinking grit is stupid, but the rules for the weapons are terrible. They treat them like super fast loading crossbows.

I don't know. I don't like them usually. The crap all over your game. How are you going to handle it when a player snipes an unexpected target? Just roll damage? I bet JFK wish it worked like that. What about when the players start making grenades or cannons or using modern ideas in the historical context? You will have to have NPCs adapt and suddenly it isn't Steam Punk anymore.


cranewings wrote:

The Pathfinder gun rules are awful. I wrote my own from scratch. I don't mind the gunslinger much, other than thinking grit is stupid, but the rules for the weapons are terrible. They treat them like super fast loading crossbows.

I don't know. I don't like them usually. The crap all over your game. How are you going to handle it when a player snipes an unexpected target? Just roll damage? I bet JFK wish it worked like that. What about when the players start making grenades or cannons or using modern ideas in the historical context? You will have to have NPCs adapt and suddenly it isn't Steam Punk anymore.

Well,in Pathfinder hit points aren't realistic.Just because he's been "hit" mechanic wise,does not mean he has actually been hit.THey've explained it as a person's vigor(the bullet scratches him as it whizzes past,etc.) .

The same goes with all other weapons.A slash from a longsword can seriously main you,while a swing of a greataxe by someone with 18 Strength would almost certainly dismember or kill you.Axes are harder to block than swords,and have more cutting power.However,this is not shown in the Pathfinder rules(Greatsword is still one of the best!) because hit points do not measure being cut tens of times throughout a battle.


I thought over it during the night, and I think I'll skip guns, because in order to use them I'd have to make them more common, and I'm not sure I want to go that route.

That said, while guns may not be available, I am unashamedly basing things off of the renaissance, not the medieval era. There may be a few medieval elements, mostly in weaponry, but it's not medieval fantasy and I don't claim that it is. There is also a gunslinger reskinned for crossbows.

One idea I do have, however, is that magitek has increased the standard of living to the point where most people are relatively well off, and the majority of individuals are not farmers. That's not to say poverty doesn't exist, it's to say comparing standards of living to, say, the US in the 1950s or 1960s is more apt than comparing them to the real renaissance. Also, the warrior NPC class isn't used in this campaign setting. This is because your average soldier is a well trained professional and has levels of fighter, ranger, barbarian, cavalier, or maybe crossbow gunslinger for average troops, and pretty much any PC class except oracle for special troops. A barely trained conscript or militia member would be an expert or commoner, perhaps with a couple levels of a PC class if they ended up being in the field long enough.


MasterMinMaxer wrote:
cranewings wrote:

The Pathfinder gun rules are awful. I wrote my own from scratch. I don't mind the gunslinger much, other than thinking grit is stupid, but the rules for the weapons are terrible. They treat them like super fast loading crossbows.

I don't know. I don't like them usually. The crap all over your game. How are you going to handle it when a player snipes an unexpected target? Just roll damage? I bet JFK wish it worked like that. What about when the players start making grenades or cannons or using modern ideas in the historical context? You will have to have NPCs adapt and suddenly it isn't Steam Punk anymore.

Well,in Pathfinder hit points aren't realistic.Just because he's been "hit" mechanic wise,does not mean he has actually been hit.THey've explained it as a person's vigor(the bullet scratches him as it whizzes past,etc.) .

The same goes with all other weapons.A slash from a longsword can seriously main you,while a swing of a greataxe by someone with 18 Strength would almost certainly dismember or kill you.Axes are harder to block than swords,and have more cutting power.However,this is not shown in the Pathfinder rules(Greatsword is still one of the best!) because hit points do not measure being cut tens of times throughout a battle.

Yeah, I agree about the HP thing. I house ruled PF so that characters who retain HP above their first level are not hit and get all of it back after a fight. Also, I don't let people have their HP gained past first level if they aren't actively defending themselves. A first level rogue with a rifled musket hiding in the bushes 60' away will deal 2d10 + Deadly Aim to the 12 permitted HP of an unaware 20th level fighter and drop him to the ground.

I wouldn't ever want to play in a RAW game with guns. The image of two guys with their shields pressed against each other and a third guy shooting one of them from 10' away over and over and over just sucks.


cranewings wrote:
MasterMinMaxer wrote:
cranewings wrote:

The Pathfinder gun rules are awful. I wrote my own from scratch. I don't mind the gunslinger much, other than thinking grit is stupid, but the rules for the weapons are terrible. They treat them like super fast loading crossbows.

I don't know. I don't like them usually. The crap all over your game. How are you going to handle it when a player snipes an unexpected target? Just roll damage? I bet JFK wish it worked like that. What about when the players start making grenades or cannons or using modern ideas in the historical context? You will have to have NPCs adapt and suddenly it isn't Steam Punk anymore.

Well,in Pathfinder hit points aren't realistic.Just because he's been "hit" mechanic wise,does not mean he has actually been hit.THey've explained it as a person's vigor(the bullet scratches him as it whizzes past,etc.) .

The same goes with all other weapons.A slash from a longsword can seriously main you,while a swing of a greataxe by someone with 18 Strength would almost certainly dismember or kill you.Axes are harder to block than swords,and have more cutting power.However,this is not shown in the Pathfinder rules(Greatsword is still one of the best!) because hit points do not measure being cut tens of times throughout a battle.

Yeah, I agree about the HP thing. I house ruled PF so that characters who retain HP above their first level are not hit and get all of it back after a fight. Also, I don't let people have their HP gained past first level if they aren't actively defending themselves. A first level rogue with a rifled musket hiding in the bushes 60' away will deal 2d10 + Deadly Aim to the 12 permitted HP of an unaware 20th level fighter and drop him to the ground.

I wouldn't ever want to play in a RAW game with guns. The image of two guys with their shields pressed against each other and a third guy shooting one of them from 10' away over and over and over just sucks.

+1

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Homebrew and House Rules / I have an important style choice to make. All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.
Recent threads in Homebrew and House Rules