Do you need to be able see the thing you are sundering? I am thinking about someone trying to sunder armor worn by or a weapon wielded by an invisible opponent.
Thanks!
Prawn
Do you need to be able see the thing you are sundering? I am thinking about someone trying to sunder armor worn by or a weapon wielded by an invisible opponent.
Thanks!
Prawn
I would say that if the sunderer knew that the target was wearing armour/carrying a weapon and could target the correct five-foot square, then yes. After all, blind fighters can make disarm and sunder attempts.
Hey! Thanks for the quick response.
Blind fighters can disarm and sunder? I can't find anything here on the forums about it. Can you tell me where to find that? I don't see that in the feat:
SRD says:
"Blind-Fight (Combat)
You are skilled at attacking opponents that you cannot clearly perceive.
Benefit: In melee, every time you miss because of concealment (see Combat), you can reroll your miss chance percentile roll one time to see if you actually hit.
An invisible attacker gets no advantages related to hitting you in melee. That is, you don't lose your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class, and the attacker doesn't get the usual +2 bonus for being invisible. The invisible attacker's bonuses do still apply for ranged attacks, however.
You do not need to make Acrobatics skill checks to move at full speed while blinded."
What about something smaller like a belt or amulet? Assuming blind fighters can sunder, can they sunder smaller things too?
Hey! Thanks for the quick response.
Blind fighters can disarm and sunder? I can't find anything here on the forums about it. Can you tell me where to find that? I don't see that in the feat
Sorry, I wasn't clear. The rules don't forbid characters who are blind (the condition - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/conditions#TOC-Blinded) from making combat maneuver checks. So I can't see why a sighted character attacking an invisible enemy couldn't make them.
The description of Invisibility (the condition - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/special-abilities#TOC-Invisibility) is very detailed, and it says nothing about an invisible creature being unable to be targeted by combat maneuver checks.
If you have pinpointed it, know where it is, or are attacking a square on the hope that it's there, then you can target it with an attack. Sundering is done "as part of an attack action in place of a melee attack". No issues there.
I would just add the additional rule (as with finding the creature) that the player must declare what they're trying to sunder. Then the miss chance can be rolled by the GM as normal - if the player's trying to sunder an item the target doesn't actually have (like armour for a creature not wearing any, or a spell component pouch for a target that doesn't have one) they get an automatic miss result, like they would if they attacked the wrong square.
Okay. The blind-fight analogy is clear.
Our situation is this. I am the DM. THe party are facing a monster with improved sunder as a swift action, who will try to sunder every round.
I want to get the sunder part ironed out before hand. I know people will upset about sundered items, and I don't want to screw anybody by making false assumptions about how sunder interacts with invisibility.
The characters will be attacking with improved invisibility, and I was wondering what would happen. The monster could assume the attackers have a weapon or armor and try and sunder them, but what about things like a ring or belt or cloak or periapt since he wouldn't know if they had those things or not?
Could the monster declare he was trying to sunder a certain slot, for example, the necklace slot, even if he didn't know if the character was wearing anything there?
The monster could assume the attackers have a weapon or armor and try and sunder them, but what about things like a ring or belt or cloak or periapt since he wouldn't know if they had those things or not?
Could the monster declare he was trying to sunder a certain slot, for example, the necklace slot, even if he didn't know if the character was wearing anything there?
Okay. First of all, let's be clear that some of this is opinion, as all the relevant rules have already been mentioned, as far as I know.
Technically, by the rules as written, I suppose a monster with Improved Sunder could target as follows:
--> a particular 5-foot square --> an item slot of a character they believe is in that 5-foot square
However, as GM, I wouldn't do it. If the monster knew that one of them was wearing the Fabled Ancient Headband of Killing This Particular Monster, and was taking swipes at head height on spec, maybe. But otherwise I'd say your players would be upset.
There are two reasons for this: first of all, it makes more in-character sense for the monster under almost all circumstances to take the more certain options; secondly, even if you swear blind the monster just happened to guess that the character was wearing a periapt, or a ring on their right hand, or a necklace, the players are going to be pretty suspicious of you as GM, since they know you know those things.
My personal recommendation is to only let it target things it knows or could reasonably assume they have. Apart from anything else, that's just more practical. No point wasting a bunch of sunder attempts, especially with a 50% miss chance added in as well.
So, the sunder attempt should go something like this:
1) The monster knows through a special ability, a Perception check, or having been attacked which square a character is in. Or they guess a square, which is fine. But I suggest you as GM roll a guess at random if so, in case the players think you're using your GM's knowledge of where their characters are.
2) The monster declares their sunder attempt on that square as part of their attack action. (Special: the monster you're using can do this as a swift action - normally it would be a standard action.)
3) They declare what they're targeting with the sunder attempt. I would rule that the only valid targets are things the monster knows or could reasonably guess that the PCs have. Weapons, shields, armour, and spell component pouches (if he knows the target's a caster) should be fair game.
4) They roll their CMB check and compare it to the target's CMD (don't forget to add the +2 for Improved Sunder!).
5) If it's successful, roll the miss chance now. If it's the wrong square, they auto-miss. Otherwise, it's a 50% chance.
6) If they pass the miss chance as well, the sunder attempt was successful. Roll damage, reduce it by the hardness, apply it to the object's HP.
7) If the object was reduced to half or fewer HP it gains the broken condition. If enough damage is done to destroy it outright the monster can either leave it with 1 HP (and with the broken condition) or destroy it.
8) Done!
Go for big stuff like armor and weapons, cause it's unreasonable to sunder a ring you can't see, but a sword, sure. And roll a second chance to fail
Cool. I was leaning towards invisibility preventing sunder attempts, but is seems logical for the monster to be able to try to sunder the weapons it is being hit with. Thanks for the replies!