We recently have come across the issue of wondering which ability scores have to be used to cast a spell from a scroll. Assume the following scenario: A sorcerer with Int 13 and Cha 16 tries to cast a 7th level wizard/sorcerer spell from a wizard scroll (CL 13). Now the questions are:
- Must the sorcerer make a use magic device check because his casting stat (Cha) is too low (should be 17 but is only 16)?
- Would he have to use his Int score because the scroll is a wizard scroll and written "differently"?
- If his Int score was 17, could he cast it directly because his Int score is high enough?
Currently we are going with the rule that his casting stat must be high enough (Cha 17) to cast it or use magic device check, and having a high-enough (or boosted Int score by spells) would not suffice because it is not the ability score used by his class. But is this correct?
There is no such thing as a "wizard scroll". There are arcane scrolls and divine scrolls, and that's it.
Your sorceror's intelligence has nothing to do with his ability to cast a spell from an arcane scroll.
There is no such thing as a "wizard scroll". There are arcane scrolls and divine scrolls, and that's it.
Your sorceror's intelligence has nothing to do with his ability to cast a spell from an arcane scroll.
Thanks for your reply. So what about the first and third question? :-)
Just for clarification, I am looking at this part in the rules:
Spell Completion: This is the activation method for scrolls. A scroll is a spell that is mostly finished. The preparation is done for the caster, so no preparation time is needed beforehand as with normal spellcasting. All that's left to do is perform the finishing parts of the spellcasting (the final gestures, words, and so on). To use a spell completion item safely, a character must be of high enough level in the right class to cast the spell already. If he can't already cast the spell, there's a chance he'll make a mistake. Activating a spell completion item is a standard action (or the spell's casting time, whichever is longer) and provokes attacks of opportunity exactly as casting a spell does.
In the example above, the sorcerer has too low a stat to cast the spell, so he does not fulfill the requirement. Looking at this more closely this even means that if he does not yet have access to level 7 spells, e.g. if he is level 12, he also does not fulfill the requirements.
So what happens? What does "he'll make a mistake" mean?
Your ruling is correct. To cast, a sorcerer has to have Cha 10+level. Int doesn't come into the equation.
1). Yes. The caster must have a stat of 17 to cast the scroll, so a UMD to fake having a 17 Cha is necessary to cast the scroll.
3). No. The sorceror doesn't use intelligence to cast spells; his intelligence doesn't do a thing to cast the spell as a sorceror. Now, if he had a few levels in wizard (or used UMD to fake having levels in wizard), he could try to cast the scroll that way and risk a mishap.
You need to look specifically at the scroll rules, where it explains about mishaps for using scrolls with spells requiring caster levels higher than the caster's.
Thank you both for your answers. Looks good so far :-)
But what about the ability to already cast it? Until now we usually went with "if the spell is on your list and your casting score is high enough, you can cast it". But it seems like we will have to append the rule "and you are already of sufficiently high level". Potentially even "and you have the spell in your spell book/know the spell already" or risk a mishap. Otherwise they would have to UMD all the way. Would that be right?
What form would that mishap take?
You need to look specifically at the scroll rules, where it explains about mishaps for using scrolls with spells requiring caster levels higher than the caster's.
Could you please point me to the section you mean? I couldn't find anything in the (online) sources I have available at the moment :-(
Thank you both for your answers. Looks good so far :-)
But what about the ability to already cast it? Until now we usually went with "if the spell is on your list and your casting score is high enough, you can cast it". But it seems like we will have to append the rule "and you are already of sufficiently high level". Potentially even "and you have the spell in your spell book/know the spell already" or risk a mishap. Otherwise they would have to UMD all the way. Would that be right?
Taken from the PRD:
Activation: To activate a scroll, a spellcaster must read the spell written on it. This involves several steps and conditions.
Decipher the Writing: The writing on a scroll must be deciphered before a character can use it or know exactly what spell it contains. This requires a read magic spell or a successful Spellcraft check (DC 20 + spell level). Deciphering a scroll is a full-round action.
Deciphering a scroll to determine its contents does not activate its magic unless it is a specially prepared cursed scroll. A character can decipher the writing on a scroll in advance so that she can proceed directly to the next step when the time comes to use the scroll.
Activate the Spell: Activating a scroll requires reading the spell from the scroll. The character must be able to see and read the writing on the scroll. Activating a scroll spell requires no material components or focus. (The creator of the scroll provided these when scribing the scroll.) Note that some spells are effective only when cast on an item or items. In such a case, the scroll user must provide the item when activating the spell. Activating a scroll spell is subject to disruption just as casting a normally prepared spell would be. Using a scroll is like casting a spell for purposes of arcane spell failure chance.
To have any chance of activating a scroll spell, the scroll user must meet the following requirements.
•The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his class.)
•The user must have the spell on her class list.
•The user must have the requisite ability score.
If the user meets all the requirements noted above, and her caster level is at least equal to the spell's caster level, she can automatically activate the spell without a check. If she meets all three requirements but her own caster level is lower than the scroll spell's caster level, then she has to make a caster level check (DC = scroll's caster level + 1) to cast the spell successfully. If she fails, she must make a DC 5 Wisdom check to avoid a scroll mishap. A natural roll of 1 always fails, whatever the modifiers. Activating a scroll is a standard action (or the spell's casting time, whichever is longer) and it provokes attacks of opportunity exactly as casting a spell does. If the caster level check fails but no mishap occurs, the scroll is not expended.Determine Effect: A spell successfully activated from a scroll works exactly like a spell prepared and cast the normal way. Assume the scroll spell's caster level is always the minimum level required to cast the spell for the character who scribed the scroll, unless the scriber specifically desired otherwise.
The writing for an activated spell disappears from the scroll as the spell is cast.
Scroll Mishaps: When a mishap occurs, the spell on the scroll has a reversed or harmful effect. Possible mishaps are given below.
•A surge of uncontrolled magical energy deals 1d6 points of damage per spell level to the scroll user.
•Spell strikes the scroll user or an ally instead of the intended target, or a random target nearby if the scroll user was the intended recipient.
•Spell takes effect at some random location within spell range.
•Spell's effect on the target is contrary to the spell's normal effect.
•The scroll user suffers some minor but bizarre effect related to the spell in some way. Most such effects should last only as long as the original spell's duration, or 2d10 minutes for instantaneous spells.
•Some innocuous item or items appear in the spell's area.
•Spell has delayed effect. Sometime within the next 1d12 hours, the spell activates. If the scroll user was the intended recipient, the spell takes effect normally. If the user was not the intended recipient, the spell goes off in the general direction of the original recipient or target, up to the spell's maximum range, if the target has moved away.
Emphasis mine. Having a caster level at least equal to the scroll has always been a requirement (although it's a very easy one to overcome), and I've listed the mishap rules as well. If you ever need something like this answered again, there's a handy search function at http://www.d20pfsrd.com.
Thank you both for your answers. Looks good so far :-)
But what about the ability to already cast it? Until now we usually went with "if the spell is on your list and your casting score is high enough, you can cast it". But it seems like we will have to append the rule "and you are already of sufficiently high level". Potentially even "and you have the spell in your spell book/know the spell already" or risk a mishap. Otherwise they would have to UMD all the way. Would that be right?
Taken from the PRD:
...Activation: To activate a scroll, a spellcaster must read the spell written on it. This involves several steps and conditions.
Decipher the Writing: The writing on a scroll must be deciphered before a character can use it or know exactly what spell it contains. This requires a read magic spell or a successful Spellcraft check (DC 20 + spell level). Deciphering a scroll is a full-round action.
Deciphering a scroll to determine its contents does not activate its magic unless it is a specially prepared cursed scroll. A character can decipher the writing on a scroll in advance so that she can proceed directly to the next step when the time comes to use the scroll.
Activate the Spell: Activating a scroll requires reading the spell from the scroll. The character must be able to see and read the writing on the scroll. Activating a scroll spell requires no material components or focus. (The creator of the scroll provided these when scribing the scroll.) Note that some spells are effective only when cast on an item or items. In such a case, the scroll user must provide the item when activating the spell. Activating a scroll spell is subject to disruption just as casting a normally prepared spell would be. Using a scroll is like casting a spell for purposes of arcane spell failure chance.
To have any chance of activating a scroll spell, the scroll user must meet the following requirements.
•The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters
Thanks! I use d20pfsrd.com, but I did not find it. I remember the section now.
Hm, seems that I will see some long faces - or simply an ongoing houserule - the next sessions.
Thank you all, I think my questions are answered now.
Hm, seems that I will see some long faces - or simply an ongoing houserule - the next sessions.
If you're worried about the caster level requirement making it difficult, then you may not realize just how easy it is to make that caster level check. For example, let's say you're a 5th-level caster, trying to cast from a scroll that is set at a 10th-level caster. The DC is the caster level of the scroll + 1, so in this case, 11. That means, in order to cast from that scroll, a 5th-level caster needs to roll a 6. (Assuming you don't have anything that boosts your caster level, that is.) Yes there's a chance of failure, but unless your party is regularly coming across scrolls a dozen levels above them, the chance of failure is so low (as well as the DC to prevent a mishap in the event they do fail) that it shouldn't really be an issue.
Hm, seems that I will see some long faces - or simply an ongoing houserule - the next sessions.If you're worried about the caster level requirement making it difficult, then you may not realize just how easy it is to make that caster level check. For example, let's say you're a 5th-level caster, trying to cast from a scroll that is set at a 10th-level caster. The DC is the caster level of the scroll + 1, so in this case, 11. That means, in order to cast from that scroll, a 5th-level caster needs to roll a 6. (Assuming you don't have anything that boosts your caster level, that is.) Yes there's a chance of failure, but unless your party is regularly coming across scrolls a dozen levels above them, the chance of failure is so low (as well as the DC to prevent a mishap in the event they do fail) that it shouldn't really be an issue.
Actually it does make a big difference. We are level 12 and have come across scrolls with CL 20. Also, one of our players is an oracle 11/sorcerer 1. He chose to do a 1 level dip into sorcerer to be able to use scrolls and thus without problems, considering his ability score was high enough that did not look problematic at first.
But when he uses scrolls with a CL 12 or such and is level 1, he would have to roll a 12 - which he is likely to fail a lot of the time. And since he did not invest into wisdom, a mishap is not that unlikely to occur.So yes, often it will be easy, but it will make a difference in crucial situations.
Ah. Well, I can see how that would be a problem. It's still possible to boost caster level, but I guess if they made their characters under the assumption that they didn't need a high caster level to use scrolls, then that could indeed screw things up. Well, it is your game, so of course feel free to house rule it if it detracts from the fun of the game, but I'd recommend trying out the actual rule for a couple sessions- I'm sure your knee-jerk reaction would be to simplify it so as to make the game easier, but the added tension of the possibility of failure may make it feel more special when you actually pull something like that off. Meaning, finding a 20th-level caster's scroll should be a big deal- does it add more to your campaign for the players to be able to use it without failure, or does it add more for it to be something that dangerous yet rewarding?
Ah. Well, I can see how that would be a problem. It's still possible to boost caster level, but I guess if they made their characters under the assumption that they didn't need a high caster level to use scrolls, then that could indeed screw things up. Well, it is your game, so of course feel free to house rule it if it detracts from the fun of the game, but I'd recommend trying out the actual rule for a couple sessions- I'm sure your knee-jerk reaction would be to simplify it so as to make the game easier, but the added tension of the possibility of failure may make it feel more special when you actually pull something like that off. Meaning, finding a 20th-level caster's scroll should be a big deal- does it add more to your campaign for the players to be able to use it without failure, or does it add more for it to be something that dangerous yet rewarding?
Thanks for your thoughts :-) I will bring it up and we will see how we proceed. I am not sure how long that other character will remain anyway - the player does not seem too happy with his characters, so it might be a problem that goes away on its own :-P