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Copy-pasting from one of my answers to the same topic :
There are some solutions to use Underhanded to it's fullest :- Bandit archetype with Quick Draw
- "Betrayer" feat (draw and make an attack as an immediate action against a target you just made friendly through Diplomacy)
- "Deft Palm" talent (conceal a weapon while holding it in plain sight, thus making it so you don't need to draw it during the surprise round)If you stack these, you could, after one minute used to influence someone's attitude one step better (Bandit + Betrayer):
- Immediate action ; draw a weapon and attack with it (underhanded, full sneak attack damage)
- Free action ; draw sword cane
- Standard Action ; attack with sword cane (underhanded, full sneak attack damage)
- Move Action ; conceal your weapon with a -20 penalty ; move away...
- Be ready to sneak again if you win initiative as long as the foe stays flat-footed before it acts, or after the surprise round is over.Or (Bandit) :
- Move action ; get concealed weapon in hand
- Standard action ; attack (underhanded for full sneak attack damage)Or (vanilla Rogue + Deft Palm talent) :
- Sneak/charm your way to the enemy, weapon in hand (possible perception checks to find out for targets)
- Standard action ; begin surprise round, attack with concealed weapon held in hand for underhanded full sneak attack damage.Note that in accordance with a good bluff check, you could bluff about not being the one who just killed a guard when another comes to see what happened if you have enough time to use Deft Palm again.
Even a vanilla rogue, given at least 1 standard action equivalent beforehand (or a move action with -20), could use Deft Palm to conceal her weapon without needing to draw it, thus allowing her another surprise round with an attack action at full sneak damage against another guard.
Also, for more fun :
Cane Sword is a swift/free action to draw.
Sap Adept and Sap Master doubles your sneak attack damage with non-lethal weapons + gives you a fix bonus to damage. Underhanded will love you twice more.
Ah, dang lol, I was going to move this because I forgot about the homebrew/houserule/suggestion area
You know you only get the bonus from underhanded once per combat, in the surprise round? Conceiling the weapon again has no use somehow.
Do you mean ending the combat by hiding and moving away and then start it anew to get another surprise round? I guess most GMs wouldn´t allow this and i also think its not really legal.
While i absolutely see the fun side of it, i can´t see how this works along, especially vs monsters etc.
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A surprise round is either one move or standard action ; or both with the Bandit archetype.
Attacking as an immediate action starts the surprise round by borrowing your next round's swift action ; but you are still into this surprise round, and thus may still use your actions for another underhanded sweet application of awesome damage :
"Furthermore, if she makes a sneak attack during the surprise round using a concealed weapon that her opponent didn’t know about, she does not have to roll sneak attack damage, and the sneak attack deals maximum damage. A rogue can only use the underhanded talent a number of times per day equal to her Charisma modifier (minimum 0)."
Are you suggesting that using an extremely limited ressource, and investing a whole chain of feats and talents to create at mid-to-high level an impressive damage-dealing combination (tightly limited/day by a stat irrelevant for combat), with a rogue, aka "the red-headed stepchild of classes", is breaking the game ?
I can build you an alchemist that could also fly, and deal the same damage in one round during several rounds all the while making people entangled, prone, and crazy. Don't even start me on another class.
This combo makes the rogue relevant as an awesome little nova bomb able to do what the assassin should have been from the beginning, and it also relies on roleplay, as having high bonuses don't make you immune to failure or special situations - especially for diplomacy checks.
It's fine enough, seriously. There is no need nor any reason good enough to nerf it, otherwise you should also ban most of the classes.
No. That´s not what i mean.
What i mean is more that you won´t take out foes on higher levels, especially if they are not human anymore. Optional massive damage rule doesn´t fix this, since the fortitude save to not die is very low, almost auto success.
Then this tactic is very limited. Against some you can´t use it at all, against others is very dangerous. You can have your group as a backup and start the fight, damaging one oponent seriously, but you most probably can not kill that oponent in the surprise round. Eventually you can kill it in the first round of combat or second, but this is dangerous for a single rogue. You also can use this trick only once per combat, in the surprise round. There is no second surprise round against the same oponent normally.
Don´t get me wrong, i think its a cool idea.
I would love it much more if you could combine it with a feint, conceil your weapon and do maximized sneak attack damage again.
But the way it is its not a real good option.
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No. That´s not what i mean.
What i mean is more that you won´t take out foes on higher levels, especially if they are not human anymore. Optional massive damage rule doesn´t fix this, since the fortitude save to not die is very low, almost auto success.Then this tactic is very limited. Against some you can´t use it at all, against others is very dangerous. You can have your group as a backup and start the fight, damaging one oponent seriously, but you most probably can not kill that oponent in the surprise round. Eventually you can kill it in the first round of combat or second, but this is dangerous for a single rogue.
Assuming the appropriate feat tree, with a merciful shortsword :
1d6 + 0(Str) + 1(Magic) + 1d6 merciful + 5d6 sneak
Becomes :
1d6 + 0 + 1 + 1d6 + (30 Underhanded x2 Sap Master)+ 10 Sap Adept = 2d6+71.
TWICE during the round.
4d6+142 nonlethal damage with 6 feats and at least three talents spent for a some-times-a-day effect ? Yes, please.
You also can use this trick only once per combat, in the surprise round.
Yes.
There is no second surprise round against the same oponent normally.
Yes. But there isn't. Immediate action begins the surprise round ; and if you attack as a standard action with either Deft Palm held-but-concealed weapon, you are STILL in this surprise round. Thus, you meet Underhanded's prerequisites as long as you attack with another previously hidden weapon the creature didn't know about.
Don´t get me wrong, i think its a cool idea.
I would love it much more if you could combine it with a feint, conceil your weapon and do maximized sneak attack damage again.But the way it is its not a real good option.
You don't need to do this. Hold two concealed weapons in hand with Deft Palm. Use a cane sword + Deft Palm with a secondary weapon. Even Improved Unarmed Strike is valid if your opponent don't know you may strike him unarmed.
So you are getting the second attack through a second conceiled weapon?
First attack with the immediate action from the betrayer feat, then standrad action attack with the second weapon?
Ok, this way it sounds good! And 6 feats is fine for this.
Even at level 12 you could knock out a lot of oponents in the surprise round then.
There should be something like a knockout rule anyway.
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Yep, I'm not trying to imply that you attack twice with the same weapon, you still need to invest in ways to get two concealed weapons in one round.
Also, there is nothing saying the Rogue can't use the Knockout Blow rogue talent after having dealt this damage on the surprise round. 4d6+142 at level 9 is enough to OHKO even a high Constitution fighter two levels higher ; 2d6+60 can be enough to straight kill or KO squishy foes.
Go first on the following round, and use KOB sneak to at worst stagger the enemy after having dealt 3d6+60+5d6 already, or put it unconscious at best.