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when we looked at the class as a balancing factor, we decided to go with that, due to that you get soooooo many other options, you dont have to spend money on magical armor enhancements and such,
What ? Everyone will spend money into enhancing this armor. Especially more because you don't need to spend money for a +1 before adding special abilities. (Also, Armor Conditioning modification includes Dazed as an effect you can reduce the duration off, but I don't know of any Daze effect lasting more than one round).
the fact that you get a lay on hands for your armor
Moot point. It's a cool situational little bonus, as any creature trying to sunder your armor is probably strong enough to break it in one hit, not even accounting itterative attacks.
the fact that you get blueprints that are spells, the fact that you get continual upgrades to the armor class
Nothing an alchemist can't reproduce quickly by being played right.
the fact that you get an extra ability mod to a physical stat every four levels in addition to normal character progression, etc.
Now that is a cool feature, but Poison use/immunities are similar in power if you add Quick Repair to it. Again, nothing that doesn't look like what an alchemist can do, so I personally don't see a reason to nerf the rays.
and with it the way you wrote it, if you use modification points, basically fluff wise you are pulling power straight from the power core to fuel the attack, and thus if you were to pull from an electrical source and put that pure energy into the elemental ray, it would come out electricity, not fire. the reason its written as such is because people wanted to pick what they shot due to what fueled their power armor.
Moot point again, because if you want to enter into a simulationist kind of play about what kind of armro does what, then I don't see any rules in your text on what kind of benefits and drawbacks each type of "fuel" would provide to the armor. I once attempted to write rules for creating constructs like eidolons, including different kinds of energies used to propel the construct ; and it was a mechanics nightmare.
Right now, nothing stops a player to get a normal armor and the Shock Bomb modification at level 1 to be able to shoot both electricity and fire straight from the beginning. The fuel used is only a purely roleplay element ; but that can be helped with the crunch.when you give it full level plus int mod, he'll never run out of things to do. he'll have spells, and his mods, and then a s+** ton of rays. everyone runs out of things when the pressure is put on them. spellcasters run out of spells, fighters run out of hp, etc. this class should be no different. if i were to go with the full class plus int, id take out the ability to spend 2 points to get another use.
A level 8 character with, say, 20 Int, would have 13 rays/day. Assuming Rapid Shot and Haste or TWFing (or hell, say the three of them), it's 5 attacks per round. Well done ! You spent two feats, one spell and one modification/feat to do almost three full-round attacks per day with the weakest element of the game (fire damage, unless you spent more modifications/feats, and thus even more limited ressources, to change the element).
we are just going to have to agree to disagree. as we have no one else interested in taking one side or another on this topic, i really cant make a more balanced decision on if it should be changed or not.
as it sits right now, i view the class as balanced in its own right. you are free to change it however you see fit.
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So be it. Just giving my opinion, as what you have written (with the exception of the ray mechanics) is pretty much what I would have wanted to see in a Pathfinder Ultimate Players Guide for a technology-oriented alchemist Alternate Class (especially since our campaign's dwarves come in two flavors : rune magic and steampunk).
If you don't mind, I would like to use your base class as the brains and skeleton for an alchemist archetype.
Do it! It's OGL.
I'm still looking for an artificer that I really like. This one had elements.
I'm really torn on death rays though. Very cool idea, imo. But I'm not sure if I want one in an artificer.
Maybe an unlimited use death ray that requires alchemical items to do any additional status effects. Absorb the tanglefootbag to entangle enemies, thunderstone to deal sonic damage and deafen...
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Maybe an unlimited use death ray that requires alchemical items to do any additional status effects. Absorb the tanglefootbag to entangle enemies, thunderstone to deal sonic damage and deafen...
Awesome idea. It helps countering the "your class is mechanical but all effects you create are removed in an antimagic field" feeling. I'll see about this in a new thread once it's done.
Just power it with a phlogiston core.
Also, this would need sane rules for crafting alchemical items, since buying them would get expensive fast.
They currently take too long.
I can select the text just fine. What's the problem? Are you using Ctrl-C to copy?
In a world ruled by steam and steel, engineers are the forerunners of the evolution of
technology, both mundane and magical. Engineers apply scientific knowledge, mathematics, and
ingenuity to develop solutions to technical problems. Their innovative ideas lead to inventions
that can bring about change on a major scale, but change can take a long time to occur. While
some use their expertise to urge this change on naturally, there are those who like to take a more
direct approach, to show the world the power of technology and to further achieve their own
goals, whether they be admirable or malice in nature. The armored-engineer does just this. He
uses his vast knowledge of mechanical and magical engineering to create a suit in which he can
increase his physical capabilities and/or mimic magical effects.
Mmmmm....
Armored-Core Engineer Class...
So be it. Just giving my opinion, as what you have written (with the exception of the ray mechanics) is pretty much what I would have wanted to see in a Pathfinder Ultimate Players Guide for a technology-oriented alchemist Alternate Class (especially since our campaign's dwarves come in two flavors : rune magic and steampunk).
If you don't mind, I would like to use your base class as the brains and skeleton for an alchemist archetype.
Like I said, add and subtract what you'd like. Doesn't burger me. In the end its your game. ;-)
Mmmmm....
Armored-Core Engineer Class...
Any further thoughts?
Ok. Tt's actually not a lot, but a spiked giant-sized fist of suffering right up in the ass editing this.
I'll just do it "errata"-like, indicating what changes and what doesn't from the base class.
If you come up with the archetype, ill edit it and put it in the document as well as your alternate elemental ray. Just post what you have in this thread and I can take it from there.
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I can select the text just fine. What's the problem? Are you using Ctrl-C to copy?
As you posted yourself, the text is full of "holes" each time it goes back to the beginning of a new line, forcing to nitpick each sentence several times so there isn't any broken line. This, plus the tables that don't look the same whenever you copy in google docs/Open Office, and the limited tools of both softwares to reproduce said tables made me give up.
Well, let's go : the Iron-Clad.
Iron-clad
Some alchemists don't focus on devastating bombs and fleshwarping extracts, instead engineering the field of mechanics, and the nature of matter. Finding in these domains of science the cold efficiency and lack of risk involved when toying with biology and volatile components, such alchemists craft themselves a powerful armor and a supposed safer energy generator known as a phlogiston core. Using mechanical devices instead of extracts, these alchemists are known as iron-clads.
Phlogiston Cannon (Su)
At 1st level, the iron-clad is capable of charging raw energy into a phlogiston core from alchemical components to unleash a ray damaging enemies from a distance. He may use this ability a number of times per day equal to his iron-clad class level + his Intelligence modifier.
This ray has a maximum range of 30 feet, and is a ranged touch attack that deals 1d6 points of elemental damage + the iron-clad’s Intelligence modifier ; the elemental damage and effects of the ray depends on the alchemical items consumed in the operation, but unless the iron-clad possesses the appropriate alchemist discovery (which the iron-clad may select as modifications to his armor), the damage dealt by any element other than Fire deals damage dices one step lower. The ray is considered as a bomb for the purpose of determining the effects of discoveries. The iron-clad may put several alchemical components into each ray ; but additional effects to rays cannot be added unless you possess the appropriate discovery, special effects from discoveries with an asterisk (*) dont stack, and any ray dealing several kinds of element deals them in equal part, using the lowest damage dices to determine the damage.
For example, a third level iron-clad with a +3 Intelligence modifier, without the Acid Bomb discovery, using both an Acid Flask and an Alchemical Fire into his phlogiston core would deal 2d4+3 damage with this ray, half being fire and half being acid. The same engineer with the Acid Bomb discovery would fire a 2d6+3 ray dealing half fire and half acid, with the target suffering an additional 1d6 points of acid damage 1 round later.
The following list details what alchemical item deals what kind of damage or special effect, with the appropriate discovery or modification in parenthesis. Refer to the text of each discovery to determine the effects unless noted :
- Acid Flask : acid damage (Acid Bomb*)
- Alchemical Grease : coating (Immolation Bomb)
- Alchemist's Fire : fire damage
- Alchemical Solvent : deals +50% damage against all adhesives
- Antiplague : no damage, provides a second saving throw against disease
- Antitoxin : no damage, provides a second saving throw against poison
- Antimagic Powder : dispells an effect (Dispelling Bomb)
- Bloodblock : no damage, stops bleeding effect
- Darkflare : negates Darkvision for 1d4 rounds (Blinding Bomb)
- Liquid Ice : cold damage (Frost Bomb*)
- Musk : creatures with the scent ability can detect a creature hit by the ray at three times the normal range, note its direction as a free action, pinpoint it when it is within 25 feet, and track it by scent with a +5 bonus on its Survival checks (Immolation Bomb)
- Nitroglycerin : force damage (Force Bomb*)
- Firework, Paper Candle : sound damage (Concussive Bomb*)
- Firework, Skyrocket : propels a projectile (Explosive Missile)
- Firework, Starfountain : cone attack (Breath Weapon Bomb*)
- Phosphorus : high radiance rays (Sunlight Bomb)
- Powder, Black : empowers a siege weapon ammunition (Siege Bomb*)
- Powder, Flash : creature is blinded (Blinding Bomb) ; creature is dazzled for 1 round unless it succeeds with a Fortitude save
- Powder, Heavy Metal : confusion (Confusion Bomb*)
- Powder, Itching : Wisdom damage (Madness Bomb)
- Silversheen : coats target so the next attack on it is treated as coming from a silver weapon (Immolation Bomb)
- Tanglefoot Bag : entangled (Tanglefoot Bomb)
- Thunderstone : electricity damage (Shock bomb*)
The damage of the iron-clad’s elemental ray increases by 1d6 points at every odd-numbered iron-clad level (this bonus damage is not multiplied on a critical hit or by using feats such as Vital Strike). The elemental ray is considered a weapon, and can be selected using feats such as Point Blank Shot and Weapon Focus.
Rolling a 1 on an elemental ray attacks deals damage to the iron-clad equal to the minimum damage the ray could inflict to a target (2d6+3 would deal 5 damage to the iron-clad).
Using this ability is a standard action.
Example Gadgets: shoulder cannon, wrist barrel, torso booster, palm repulsors, flamethrower, tesla coils, nitrogen vaporisator.
Power Armor (Su)
At first level, the iron-clad creates an armor to protect himself against enemies. The creation points cost of this armor is equal to the armor bonus it provides, and all modifications cost 2 creation points unless otherwise noted (like racial modifications which cost 1 point if the iron-clad is of the appropriate race). An iron-clad must select a specific type of power armor, which provides him with specific benefits and annoyances. This choice is made at first level and cannot be changed :
- Steam-powered :
Benefit: May create 1/day a fog of smoke on your square as a move action, with a 5' radius. Gain the Elemental Shield (cold) modification.
Drawback: The wearer of a steam-powered armor is slowed (as per the spell) during one round when suffering cold damage.
- Electricity-powered :
Benefit: Gain the Shock Bomb discovery. May expand one daily use of your phlogiston canon to create a 5' aura dealing electricity damage equal to the minimum damage of a ray to all creatures starting their round in the aura during one round.
Drawback: Fire rays deal d4 damage. The wearer of an electricity-powered armor loses -2 AC when asperged with water or when under the rain. If immerged, the armor breaks and deals the damage of a shocking ray to each creature in a 30 foot radius.
- Petrol-powered :
Benefit : Gain the Breath Weapon Bomb discovery. Your armor is considered as having the Slick property.
Drawback : When suffering a critical hit, there is a 5% risk of the armor exploding, gaining the broken condition and creating a 10' radius burst of fire damage equal to the damage of a ray (reflex save for half-damage, DC : 10 + 1/2 your iron-clad level + your Intelligence modifier), you automatically fail this save.
- Clockwork-powered :
Benefit : Your armor has a 5% chance to stop critical hits and sneak attacks. This bonus stacks with the fortification magical armor property.
Drawback : You must spend one minute to up your armor's mechanisms every 12 hours, otherwise it takes the broken condition. You may spend one modification point to increase the time needed before reloading your armor by 12 hours.
- Cryo-powered :
Benefit : Gain the Frost Bomb discovery. You may stack the Frost Bomb and Breath Weapon discoveries, and convert any damage dealt by a device to Cold damage.
Drawback : Fire rays deal d4 damage. You suffer from vulnerability to fire.
- Bio-powered :
Benefit: Gain the Acid Bomb discovery. A creature struck by a critical hit with a ray suffers damage equal to your Intelligence modifier on the following round.
Drawback: Fire rays deal d4 damage. Critical hits on you make you sickened during one round.
This ability otherwise works as per the armored-engineer ability of the same name.
This ability replaces mutagen and persistent mutagen.
Modification Pool
An iron-clad possesses a pool of points he can use to activate modifications on his armor. This works as per the armored-engineer ability of the same name.
This ability replaces throw anything.
Engineering
The iron-clad creates mechanical devices to simulate spells. This works as per the iron-clad ability of the same name.
This ability replaces alchemy and brew potion.
Armor Upgrade (Su)
At level 2, and every three levels later, the armor bonus provided by the iron-clad's power armor is increased by +1, and it gains an additional 2 points of hardness and 10 additional hit points.
At level 5, and every five levels later, the power armor provides a +1 bonus to one of the iron-clad's physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity or Constitution) when worn, as long as it isn't broken.
This ability replaces poison use, poison resistance +2, +4 and +6 and poison immunity.
Modifications (Su)
At level 2, and every two levels later (4, 6, 8...), the iron-clad can select a modification for his Power Armor. This works as per the iron-clad ability of the same name, except that the iron-clad has no access to the Enhance Elemental Ray and Flamethrower modifications. At level 10, the iron-clad adds advanced modifications to the list of modifications he can choose from.
At level 20, the iron-clad selects two modifications, plus one grand modification.
This ability replaces discovery and grand discovery.
Swift Engineering (Ex)
At level 3, an iron-clad can create alchemical items with astounding speed. It takes an iron-clad half the normal amount of time to create alchemical items. As a swift action, a number of times per day equal to his Intelligence modifier, the iron-clad may repair 1d6 hit points from an item of his choice.
This ability replaces swift alchemy.
Instant Engineering (Ex)
At level 18, an iron-clad can create alchemical items with almost supernatural speed. He can create any alchemical item as a full-round action if he succeeds at the Craft (alchemy) check and has the appropriate resources at hand to fund the creation. Repairing an item becomes a free action, and the iron-clad may add his Intelligence modifier to the hit points repaired on an item.
This ability replaces instant alchemy.
I can select the text just fine. What's the problem? Are you using Ctrl-C to copy?As you posted yourself, the text is full of "holes" each time it goes back to the beginning of a new line, forcing to nitpick each sentence several times so there isn't any broken line. This, plus the tables that don't look the same whenever you copy in google docs/Open Office, and the limited tools of both softwares to reproduce said tables made me give up.
Well, let's go : the Iron-Clad.
** spoiler omitted **...
I'm going to use this.
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No problem, it will be 10$ !
Or a virile brofist.
Or a ranged touch attack kiss on the cheek.
(Also, beware of Armor Modification, it's the only one that bugs me at middle-to-high level ; but there is also the fact you don't have any Cure extract or potion available to balance it. I advise playtesting before adoption.)
In my campaign setting, the armored engineer is the only class that uses armor instead of a defense bonus (I use the values in Unearthed Arcana). Will this be a problem balance wise?
Looked over it, and maybe I miss something...but why do you get a Modification Pool at level 1, but no way to use it until level 2?
In my campaign setting, the armored engineer is the only class that uses armor instead of a defense bonus (I use the values in Unearthed Arcana). Will this be a problem balance wise?
Since I dont have that document in front if me I couldnt tell you but it may since the armored engineer gets so much to his ac. Id have to see the chart before I can make a clear decision.
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Looked over it, and maybe I miss something...but why do you get a Modification Pool at level 1, but no way to use it until level 2?
You may choose modifications at level 1 by starting with a weakest armor bonus (10 Creation points would for example allow for +7 Armor, +1 Orcish armor, +2 random modification). So, you can use these points right from level 1, it's just not an obligation.
In my campaign setting, the armored engineer is the only class that uses armor instead of a defense bonus (I use the values in Unearthed Arcana). Will this be a problem balance wise?
I don't know these rules, so I'm afraid I can't help you on this one.
Looked over it, and maybe I miss something...but why do you get a Modification Pool at level 1, but no way to use it until level 2?You may choose modifications at level 1 by starting with a weakest armor bonus (10 Creation points would for example allow for +7 Armor, +1 Orcish armor, +2 random modification). So, you can use these points right from level 1, it's just not an obligation.
Thanks for clearing that up for me. On that note, I do like the class. I just think parts of it are really clunky. Specifically the way the modification pool apparently interacts with the armor building itself.
Thanks for clearing that up for me. On that note, I do like the class. I just think parts of it are really clunky. Specifically the way the modification pool apparently interacts with the armor building itself.Looked over it, and maybe I miss something...but why do you get a Modification Pool at level 1, but no way to use it until level 2?You may choose modifications at level 1 by starting with a weakest armor bonus (10 Creation points would for example allow for +7 Armor, +1 Orcish armor, +2 random modification). So, you can use these points right from level 1, it's just not an obligation.
It doesn't. You have a modification pool that you use to activate your modifications, similar to the magus' arcane pool.
To build your armor, you get 10 armor creation points, which its described under the power armor section.
Does that solve your question?
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It doesn't. You have a modification pool that you use to activate your modifications, similar to the magus' arcane pool.
To build your armor, you get 10 armor creation points, which its described under the power armor section.
Does that solve your question?
I think this distinction should be clearer on the description, as I had to write it in the alchemist archetype.
updated
I really liked this class and will playtest soon in my campaign.
However, I have a few questions.
1) Can you modify the base of your armor? In game, could a armored-engineer redo his power armor changing his current 10 PAP (power armor points) already applied in some modifications to different modifications?
Example:
14th-lvl Human Armored Engineer
Base armor + Strength Mode (2) + Greater Strength Mode (2) + Increased Armor (2) + Hyper Speed (2) + Targetting System (2)
Before entering a battle, he decided to modify his power armor and changed the following modifications to others that he already knows.
- Strength Mode changed by Stealth Mode
- Greater Strength Mode changed by Hafling Armor
- Targetting System changed by Quick Donning
Would that be possible? I don't clearly have seen something like written through this topic and doc.
2) How about using Power Armor Points to apply magical abilities to the power armor? I think that you could use the following:
You can apply magical abilities to you Power Armor with GP cost equivalent to double your current Armored Engineer level. It cost 1 PAP for each magical ability select.
Example: 4th-lvl Armored Engineer equipped with a Stealh Spell-Resistant Power Armor (SR13) would cost 2 PAP (equivalent cost of 7750gp).
3) Would it be unbalanced if there is a feat who gives 2 Power Armor Points? If yes, any ideas to make it more balanced?
Congratulations for your work. Congrats to Maxximilius and Cheapy by their contributions and comments.
You're welcome. This also makes me think about the fact that I should post the Iron-Clad into it's own thread.
Of course! It's a really good point of discussion and playtest class too. And we must summon Cheapy to enlist your archetype in his awesome artificier/tinker/engineer/mechanicist list.
I will review your model carefully later, but I sure have some points to make and buff the discussion up.
I really liked this class and will playtest soon in my campaign.
However, I have a few questions.1) Can you modify the base of your armor? In game, could a armored-engineer redo his power armor changing his current 10 PAP (power armor points) already applied in some modifications to different modifications?
Example:
14th-lvl Human Armored Engineer
Base armor + Strength Mode (2) + Greater Strength Mode (2) + Increased Armor (2) + Hyper Speed (2) + Targetting System (2)Before entering a battle, he decided to modify his power armor and changed the following modifications to others that he already knows.
- Strength Mode changed by Stealth Mode
- Greater Strength Mode changed by Hafling Armor
- Targetting System changed by Quick Donning
Would that be possible? I don't clearly have seen something like written through this topic and doc.
2) How about using Power Armor Points to apply magical abilities to the power armor? I think that you could use the following:
You can apply magical abilities to you Power Armor with GP cost equivalent to double your current Armored Engineer level. It cost 1 PAP for each magical ability select.
Example: 4th-lvl Armored Engineer equipped with a Stealh Spell-Resistant Power Armor (SR13) would cost 2 PAP (equivalent cost of 7750gp).
3) Would it be unbalanced if there is a feat who gives 2 Power Armor Points? If yes, any ideas to make it more balanced?
Congratulations for your work. Congrats to Maxximilius and Cheapy by their contributions and comments.
1. yes, but its a grand modification you must pick. id like it to be an advanced mod, but id have to replace it with a different grand mod, and i just dont have anything in mind to do that.
but he can repick racial armors at different levels by switching out one that he has. its under the racial armor part of the power armor section.
this class has a tendency to be like the sorcerer where you need to be careful what you pick. but you can always roleplay it out and petition your gm to allow you to make some changes. think of each modification as very difficult to create and it takes much time.
2. not sure bout this one, and with the cost equivalent to double line, that would mean you could get an ability for 20 gp if youre tenth level? the wording on that one seems unclear to me.
3. yes and no. you could get the feat and take two 1-pt modifications. now, most 1 pt mods arent bad, like quick donning. but for things like upgrade armor, it is. you could take that mod twice with that one feat. all other mods cost two points, so you might as well just take the extra mod feat. basically, its best to take whatever 1 pt mods you want at creation and buy the rest when you get a new feat or a new mod.
but im open to any suggestions you have pertaining these questions and the answers i provided.
I will try to explain better about the magical armor abilities.
1) Armor & Shield Special Abilities tables:
Magic Items: Armor & Shield Special Ability
2) An armored engineer may improve his power armor with a modification equivalent to a armor or shield special ability (like in link above). For each armored engineer's class level, you may apply equivalent a 1.000 GP.
So, a 8th-lvl armored engineer may apply a +2 special ability (4.000 GP) or the equivalent sum of abilities that cost less than 8.000 GP (like Light Fortification and Shadow).
However, for each special ability applied, the armored engineer have to spend 1 power armor point.
In the previous example, if our 8th-lvl armored engineer apply Spell Resistance 13 (+2 equivalent), he will spend 1 power armor point. If he apply Light Fortification (+1 equivalent) and Shadow (generic), he will spend 2 armor point.
3) After describing it here, I realize my quotation may be overpowered =/ , but the main idea is to incorporate the special abilities from the Magic Items' Tables here.
the only problem with what your proposing is that power armor points are only used at character creation and now where else during the course of the character. if we find a way to get around that problem, it could work.
Now I became a bit confused. Those 10 PAP must be spent with modifications thar the character obtain at every 2 levels (2, 4, 6 and so on) and can be changed every 4 levels (a information I latelly realized and also answered an early made question). The current limit is 10 PAP, spending at 1st or at 20th level, right?
So, if my point of view above is correct, how can it be a problem to accept a modification based on special abilities from magic armors & shields as I proposed in my last post? I think the cost in PAP is what should be revised if necessary.
PAP = Power Armor Point(s)
You have two separate things. Power arm. You dont get to change what you bought past character creation, nor do you ever get more power armor points. power armor points are only used at character creation. Modifivation points you get every level and you use those like a magus uses their arcane pool points. You get new modifications automatically due to gaining a level and or getting a feat. I hope that clears things up