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The Ragechemist description says :"At 2nd level, whenever a ragechemist creates a mutagen that improves his Strength, that mutagen grants the ragechemist a +6 bonus to Strength, a +2 bonus to natural armor, and a –2 penalty to Intelligence. Furthermore, while under the effects of this mutagen, whenever the alchemist takes damage, his rage grows, with detrimental effects. At the end of each turn that he takes hit point damage, the ragechemist must succeed at a Will saving throw (DC 15, or DC 20 if any of the damage came from a critical hit that turn) or take a –2 penalty on Will saving throws and to Intelligence. These penalties end 1 hour after the mutagen ends and stack with themselves. If the penalty lowers the ragechemist’s Intelligence score to 0, the ragechemist is comatose until 1 hour after the mutagen expires."
Does that mean you get these increases on top of the normal effect of your Mutagen?
They don't stack, they replace.
So, no you don't get +10 strength and +4 natural armour.
Then what does happen to the greater mutagen and grand mutagen discoveries with this archetype?
Exactly as they always work.
That doesn´t follow. The greater mutagen discovery does not grant a +2
inrease to the natural armor and ability bonuses from mutagen, but replaces them with higher bonuses so it can´t work as always, and besides that the backdraw to this archetype is rather intense,....and all that for a +2 increase to strenght and eventually you and up with a worse mutagen than the regular alchemist?I don´t think so.
Does anything in the archtype description state greater/grand is any different than normal? No? Then stop reading more into it.
What you are gaining, is a improved mutagen before being level 12. Most alchemists are stuck with the basic form until then.
Upon gaining greater mutagen it overrides the previous version, you are no longer creating a "mutagen" receiving the rage effects, you are now creating a "greater mutagen".
Now, if you want to read it as a greater mutagen and a mutagen being the same thing then you can hang onto the will problem, that is a poissble interpretation as well, but by level 12 you shouldn't have any problem passing even a dc 20 will save, but as is stated in the rules buffs coming from the same source do not stack, so the rage mutagen enhancement bonuses would not stack with the greater mutagen ones. You take the best.
Edit:- sorry if this post seems a bit snappy, just re-read it and didn't mean it to come across like that!
No offence taken.
But greater mutagen doesn´t mean that your not creating a mutagen anymore im pretty sure of that, nor do I think that you just replace your rage mutagen with it you get a rage mutagen progression after all and replacing it would mean that you just lose every benefit the archetype might have given you.To the Will Save question:of course at level 12 you can easily make a DC 20 Will Save but thats when you replace it with the greater mutagen in your opinion , and at lower levels the will save thing is a death sentence,and lets not forget you also lose your poison use feature.
I realise it may sound munchkin to hope for a +10 strength increase at level 2 ,and its absolutely possible that i´m wrong,but if I am then this archetype is a horrible choice with nothing to gain from.
Bonus
Bonuses are numerical values that are added to checks and statistical scores. Most bonuses have a type, and as a general rule, bonuses of the same type are not cumulative (do not “stack”)—only the greater bonus granted applies.
The important aspect of bonus types is that two bonuses of the same type don't generally stack. With the exception of dodge bonuses, most circumstance bonuses, and racial bonuses, only the better bonus of a given type works. Bonuses without a type always stack, unless they are from the same source.
As you can see, no matter how you look at it, you'd only gain the listed benefits, and would not add them together.
Now, I agree ragechemist isn't the best archtype, (personally i'd advise you look at beastmorph), but you are missing the point. Yes by level 12 you aren't getting much out of it, but how many games reach level 12? How many go much higher than that? The point of the archtype is to make you stronger at LOWER levels, I mean it doesn't matter how awesome your char will be at level 12+ if he's been useless before that, and for some-one taking a 2 dip it's actually very strong provided you can pass the will saves.
Yes I know that two boni of the same type don´t stack ,but they dont stack in the first place,.. it´s the same bonus only 6 higher than normal for strength based mutagens.
And greater mutagen is the same, but you also gaining a +4 too any other physical stat of your choice. I could see rage chemist allowing you too make a strength based mutagen with 4 in dex and retaining the 2 in con, possibly, but I'm not positive on that.
Absolutely nothing in the Rage Mutagen description even suggests that the ability replaces anything other than poison use. The fact that the bonuses granted were intentionally changed from alchemical to untyped further suggests that the bonus do, in fact, stack. Not to mention that a Grand Mutagen would be nerfed from a +8 Str to a +6 Str.
The bonuses to natural armor from Rage Mutagen and Sturdy Rage, being untyped, also stack with Mutagen and each other. The Con bonus from Lumbering Rage also stacks with Mutagen.
While I totally agree with quantum steve it would be nice to hear an official opinion on this, so faq this please.
I went ahead and clicked the FAQ button, but this ability is only confusing if you read too much into it.
If you assume that Rage Mutagen is meant to replace or alter some unspecified portion of the Mutagen ability, trying to figure which parts are altered or replaced, especially when using Greater or Grand Mutagen, can be fairly difficult, since the ability doesn't give much of a clue which parts those are.
If you take Rage Mutagen at face value: some bonuses that add to Mutagen, and everything pretty much stacks with everything; it becomes quite simple.
It is VERY clear that rage mutagen is a advanced form of a typical strength mutagen, to say otherwise is just plain wrong.
"At 2nd level, whenever a ragechemist creates a mutagen that improves his Strength, that mutagen grants the ragechemist a +6 bonus to Strength, a +2 bonus to natural armor, and a –2 penalty to Intelligence."
Further I posit this line from the mutagen section
"Although if the other alchemist creates a different mutagen, the effects of the “stolen” mutagen immediately cease.) The effects of a mutagen do not stack. Whenever an alchemist drinks a mutagen, the effects of any previous mutagen immediately end."
This requires no FAQ, it is obvious both the intention, and mechanics of these abilities, and I have no clue how any of you are reaching this conclusions, short of just not reading the passages.
Edit:- This was aimed at Quantum Steve, Cyan has some valid points that seem perfectly acceptable by the raw too me. However bare in mind that if you made a strength based extract using grand mutagen and made the strength +8, this would overlap the rage version stipulation of +6, but not stack (because as it says, it's just improving the normal version so it would keep the type of alchemical)
I read the descriptions thoroughly, and nobody doubts that it is an "advanced" form of mutagen.
As to your mutagen section qoute, I have no idea what that has to do with this topic.
The bonus rage mutagen grants is still unclear though.
@Cyan and NeverNever: If you make a Mutagen that increases Dex the rage mutagen bonus does not apply at all.So no thats definitely not how it works.
"the effects of mutagens do not stack".
You may view this as it meaning "if i drink 2 mutagens i don't gain both the effects, and I counter with then it'd say "the effects of 2 different mutagens don't stack."
If you are going to be picky about wording, then it will backfire.
@Cyan and NeverNever: If you make a Mutagen that increases Dex the rage mutagen bonus does not apply at all.So no thats definitely not how it works.
I said "some" valid point, but if you mean his first example, he obviously means a greater mutagen +6 dex +4 strength, it's improving strength so technically still gets the benefits.
"the effects of mutagens do not stack".
You may view this as it meaning "if i drink 2 mutagens i don't gain both the effects, and I counter with then it'd say "the effects of 2 different mutagens don't stack."
If you are going to be picky about wording, then it will backfire.
When did anybody ever talk about using two different mutagens?
If I may qoute your own qoute :"At 2nd level, whenever a ragechemist creates a mutagen that improves his Strength, that mutagen grants the ragechemist a +6 bonus to Strength, a +2 bonus to natural armor, and a –2 penalty to Intelligence."What I think is that when you use a strenght mutagen then you get the bonus from rage mutagen I don´t know where the constant missunderstandings between us come from.
Right, and that's all you gain, because any other effects wouldn't stack. Doesn't matter if it's a grand rage mutagen, you'd only take the best improvements since nothing a mutagen does stacks.
Besides, cyan has already shown why rage chemist is useful beyond level 12, so that should answer your question (never considered it that way).
James Jacobs has spoken:Sleet Storm wrote:
Sorry to bother you with this but this question has come up and didn´t make it to the faq: Does the Ragechemist get the boni from Rage Mutagen on top of the normal mutagen bonus?And if not what happens when he takes greater mutagen or grand mutagen.
Does "boni" mean bonus?
If so, the bonus granted via his Rage Mutagen applies to ALL mutagens that improve Strength. The bonuses granted by Rage Mutagen are not typed, and as such they stack with anything and everything. Greater and grand mutagen don't actually affect rage mutagen directly, since those two things apply to the baseline mutagen, alongside of rage mutagen. In that case, I would say that they would NOT stack; you'd just take the higher of the two, but you could certainly argue that both would stack I guess. I'd rather see it in play first before making a ruling in the end, I guess.
How do I copy his post from the ask James Jacobs thread into this thread?
Anyway, here´s the link http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/community/offTopic/askJamesJacobsAllYo urQuestionsHere&page=last
James jacob has been wrong before, and shouldn't be used as a official FAQ, like when he stated that pounce doesn't allow iterative attacks despite the actual rule for it, however I've asked him to clarify if the strength bonuses would stack with each other then, just for peace of mind.
James jacob has been wrong before, and shouldn't be used as a official FAQ, like when he stated that pounce doesn't allow iterative attacks despite the actual rule for it, however I've asked him to clarify if the strength bonuses would stack with each other then, just for peace of mind.
Thats exactly why I want this question faq´d so JUST PRESS THE BUTTON:)
I kinda have a pet peeve about things being FAQued, when the answer seems obvious too me, and the line "The effects of a mutagen don't stack" seems pretty cut and dry too me.
Lets not clutter james thread, I've gone ahead and deleted the unnecessary posts I made, however if James isn't going to clarify his answer then I agree this will have to be FAQued, and hope none of my players notice this in the mean time.
| 2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
I kinda have a pet peeve about things being FAQued, when the answer seems obvious too me, and the line "The effects of a mutagen don't stack" seems pretty cut and dry too me.
Yep, but where is this line from and in what kind of context is it used,
and what do you think of the line "specific rules overrule general ones".
It's in the mutagen section for alchemists, and I'd say it's pretty specific, further the next line states that new mutagens cause old ones to stop working, so It'd be redundant if it didn't mean what I thought it did.
I kinda have a pet peeve about things being FAQued, when the answer seems obvious too me, and the line "The effects of a mutagen don't stack" seems pretty cut and dry too me.
That argument would only be valid if a regular Mutagen and a Rage Mutagen were two completely different mutagens. That argument is also completely at odds with how you and cyan suggest that Greater Mutagen works.
If a Greater Mutagen and a Rage Mutagen are treated as two different mutagens that can't stack, then you could never make a Dex/Str mutagen (or any other mutagen that raises Str other than a Rage Mutagen.)
ANY mutagen you make that raises Str, becomes a Rage Mutagen. Which, as you suggest, would make it +6 Str, +2 Nat Amr, and -2 Int.
I realise it may sound munchkin to hope for a +10 strength increase at level 2 ,and its absolutely possible that i´m wrong,but if I am then this archetype is a horrible choice with nothing to gain from.
I don't think it's that "Munchkin" to hope for a +10 Str bonus that's pretty much guaranteed to leave you comatose and unable to use extracts.
Even at high levels, one botched save, (which you will be making almost every single round) and the subsequent saves get a LOT harder.
Not at all, it says the EFFECTS don't stack, not that mutagens don't stack.
So in other words here is the effects of a greater mutagen brewed by a ragechemist with strength and dex
From the Greater discovery we get+6 dex, +4 strength, +4 nat armour, -2 int, -2 wisdom.
Since this mutagen improves strength it qualifies for the rage mutagen class feature and we get +6 str, +2 con, +4 natural armour, -2 int, -1 dex and the will issues.
Since the effects of a mutagen don't stack you just gain the best versions, you would end up with
+6 dex (-1 doesn't stack too make it +5), +6 strength (removing the +4), +4 natural armour, +2 con (from the ragechemist), -2 int (again, no stacking), -2 wisdom, and the will issues.
Quantam Steve, if you made a ragechemist and couldn't pass a dc 15 will save pretty reliably at level 1, then I'd LET you have 10 strength.
Not at all, it says the EFFECTS don't stack, not that mutagens don't stack.
So in other words here is the effects of a greater mutagen brewed by a ragechemist with strength and dex
From the Greater discovery we get+6 dex, +4 strength, +4 nat armour, -2 int, -2 wisdom.
Since this mutagen improves strength it qualifies for the rage mutagen class feature and we get +6 str, +2 con, +4 natural armour, -2 int, -1 dex and the will issues.
Since the effects of a mutagen don't stack you just gain the best versions, you would end up with
+6 dex (-1 doesn't stack too make it +5), +6 strength (removing the +4), +4 natural armour, -2 int (again, no stacking), -2 wisdom, and the will issues.
Quantam Steve, if you made a ragechemist and couldn't pass a dc 15 will save pretty reliably at level 1, then I'd LET you have 10 strength.
Well in that case, one could just drink a Str Mutagen, a Dex Mutagen, and a Con Mutagen at level one at get +2 to each, right? Only the Natty Armour bonus wouldn't stack.
Alchemists are MAD with poor will saves. At level 1, a DC15 is hardly a sure thing. You also have to save EVERY SINGLE TIME you take damage. Then, if you miss EVEN ONE, now it's a DC 17, then 19, then 21. Once you start missing saves, it's all over for you. At level 6, the DCs jump by 4 for each failed save.
Very next line "Whenever an alchemist drinks a mutagen, the effects of any previous mutagen immediately end."
Rage Mutagen isn´t a stand alone Mutagen the rule specifies it as a Bonus that you get WHENEVER you use a strength mutagen.So if mutagens stack or not or only the effects don´t stack or whatever... it isn´t relevant to this question.
Very next line "Whenever an alchemist drinks a mutagen, the effects of any previous mutagen immediately end."
You mean the sentence after "Mutagen's do not stack"? The sentence that qualifies the previous sentence?
Yeah true will might be hard at 1, if you aren't doing things right, and with your int of at least 14, in 6 whole rounds you might be unconscious! oh no!
And by the time it's getting to -4s, you'd have lets see, +2 to will from alchemist, +1 racial, +2 from a cloak of resistance and with how will deficient you are and a generally none-feat intensive build you'd have iron will for +2, lets also say that wisdom isn't effecting it at all, (Because with your theorized +10 to strength you decided to get silly and still put almost everything in strength, for some reason), that's +7 right?
so a pretty low chance to fail already, but it could happen.. except you are in a party, and almost defiantly going to have some sort of buff coming from somewhere so lets say +9. So a 6 makes you pass. If you are REALLY worried you could get greater iron will for the re-roll.
And then when you DO finally fail you'd still probably have about 3-4 rounds to finish the fight. And how many rounds do fights normally last? no longer than 5-6 in a above average fight is the general consensus. I can see how absolutely crippling that'd be.
You mean the sentence after "Mutagen's do not stack"? The sentence that qualifies the previous sentence?
No I mean the one that would make the previous statement redundant if it had no other meaning.
Rage Mutagen isn´t a stand alone Mutagen the rule specifies it as a Bonus that you get WHENEVER you use a strength mutagen.So if mutagens stack or not or only the effects don´t stack or whatever... it isn´t relevant to this question.
This would be valid, except it says "whenever a ragechemist creates a mutagen that improves his Strength, that mutagen grants the ragechemist a +6 bonus to Strength...etc"
So it's obviously a effect of the mutagen.
I don´t think you get just how awfull this penalty is.
It´s not just about falling unconcious, it´s a -2 and later a -4 penalty to will saves and intelligence , and you´re going to have to roll this saves a lot, EVERYTIME you take damage from whatever source no matter if its only one point and if you fail twice yore bait.
This would be valid, except it says "whenever a ragechemist creates a mutagen that improves his Strength, that mutagen grants the ragechemist a +6 bonus to Strength...etc"
So it's obviously a effect of the mutagen.
Yes but its in addition to the effect your mutagen would normally have and not two mutagens at once like you are implying
And I don't think you realise how powerful this could be as a 2 for pretty much anything, while also being so very easy to counter following your interpretation. (2 dip into monk for dragon style and +3 too will anybody? Or how about a 1 dip into barbarian for the +2 morale bonus and a extra +4 to strength and con?).
But nonetheless, that isn't my point, my point is mutagen effects do not stack according to the mutagen section of the alchemist class, and if we ignore James Jacobs statement I haven't seen anything to change my mind on that.
Yes but its in addition to the effect your mutagen would normally have and not two mutagens at once like you are implying
It's not what I'm implying, and if you read it doesn't say mutagens plural, it says "Mutagen" singular. I agree it is one mutagen, one mutagen that has been given extra effects from a class feature, however these effects do not stack according to the rules.
Heck, Cyan has already proved my original position wrong (aka that the greater mutagen would replace the ragechemist effects completely), but that doesn't change anything else.
I´m pretty sure that you´re not interested in an answer to this , and just trying to punch through your own opinion.
Pots and kettles my friend.
But more seriously, You haven't given me any reason that rule doesn't apply.
You are qouting the rule that the effects different Mutagens don´t stack, But this rule has nothing to do with this issue as rage mutagen is an untyped bonus that does apply whenever you use a strength mutagen.
That means the effect of the Mutagen itself is changed its not the effect of another Mutagen.
And im not your friend buddy:-)
I don't really see anything in the rule saying it only applies to different mutagens, heck it's not even plural, and the line after seems to cover the whole "can't drink two different mutagens" angle. Besides, your argument is "well it doesn't say it's a alchemical bonus, or that you don't gain the normal benefit, so it stacks". Both of them are pretty rules lawyering, so don't try to use "that's not the intention" as a fall back lol.