Advancing monsters - am I doing it right?


Homebrew and House Rules


ok, so i love the theory of the way pathfinder lets you modify monsters with relative ease - it lets me choose a beast that i like thematically, and then gives me the ability to keep it a challenge for my PCs.

in this case i wanted a giant spider, so i started out with a giant black widow. trouble is, this thing is only CR 3 (my APL is 4) and with 37 hp is only a couple of swings from my scythe wielding barbs trophy list.

so i added the advanced template - great, CR 4. its good, but i want this to be a really epic fight. so i decided to add some HD. bearing in mind this is the first time i've done this, i decided i wanted to create a CR 6 encounter. looking at table 2-1 in the bestiary, it seems i need to add 30hp to achieve this. (found by adding the increased HP amounts between CR 4 and CR 6 together) trouble is with only d8 hp, it means i need to add 6 HD to my spider. which makes it an 11 HD creature.

in most ways im happy with it actually, its a real beast - 120hp, reasonable AC and a scary 1d8+18 bite - enough to polish off a PC in 2 or 3 bites - but with it only having one attack they can probably take it out with action economy, while still feeling in mortal danger. great! its also got a big enough BAB that it will be able to hit my shield fighter, who has proven mostly immune to melee damage thus far.

where im running into trouble is the DCs of its skills. its web attack is DC 24 to break (10 + 5 from HD + 5 from con - which is 20 due to advanced template - +4 from racial 'strong webs'. even with 24 str its a hell of a break DC. its poison is DC 22, and needs two saves to cure - my rogue is almost certain to die from the con damage if he takes a hit, since hes unlikely to make the saves. i've considered having my own pc, a cleric, make them a collection of potions which includes one or two of delay poison. but it seems a bit too meta-gamey. (she wont be coming to fight this creature) i offered them her brewing services already, and they are clamoring for healing pots. so simple minded! :P

should i just tone down the DCs? i dont really want to make the beast any weaker physically. the fighter and barb combined will probably be able to break webs, but it will cost them alot of actions and possibly end up in the whole party dying from con damage, haha.

the party will consist of just the three PCs, barb rogue and fighter. i actually wouldnt be surprised if they are quick to try and burn the webs, which while not covered in the beastiary i will probably just rule using the web spell as a guide.

thoughts? should i just let it roll and see what happens?

Liberty's Edge

When advancing a creature, I tend to pick Templates or HD and stick with my choice. In your example, you're mixing the Advanced Template with HD increases. While there is nothing that says this is wrong (and, actually, I'M not even saying it wrong), I've had pretty good results with only doing one to up the CR.

That said, I have never messed with the Giant Black Widow, and I am FAR from the best around here with advancing monsters. I'm just suggesting you might want to try this method, as it works pretty well for me.

I like keeping with HD to straight beef up monsters. Adding stats all around in a somewhat-linear fashion.

I like advancing by Templates to add lots of flavor and cool new abilities to monsters, while not necessarily increasing power.

Sczarni

st00ji wrote:

ok, so i love the theory of the way pathfinder lets you modify monsters with relative ease - it lets me choose a beast that i like thematically, and then gives me the ability to keep it a challenge for my PCs.

in this case i wanted a giant spider, so i started out with a giant black widow. trouble is, this thing is only CR 3 (my APL is 4) and with 37 hp is only a couple of swings from my scythe wielding barbs trophy list.

so i added the advanced template - great, CR 4. its good, but i want this to be a really epic fight. so i decided to add some HD. bearing in mind this is the first time i've done this, i decided i wanted to create a CR 6 encounter. looking at table 2-1 in the bestiary, it seems i need to add 30hp to achieve this. (found by adding the increased HP amounts between CR 4 and CR 6 together) trouble is with only d8 hp, it means i need to add 6 HD to my spider. which makes it an 11 HD creature.

in most ways im happy with it actually, its a real beast - 120hp, reasonable AC and a scary 1d8+18 bite - enough to polish off a PC in 2 or 3 bites - but with it only having one attack they can probably take it out with action economy, while still feeling in mortal danger. great! its also got a big enough BAB that it will be able to hit my shield fighter, who has proven mostly immune to melee damage thus far.

where im running into trouble is the DCs of its skills. its web attack is DC 24 to break (10 + 5 from HD + 5 from con - which is 20 due to advanced template - +4 from racial 'strong webs'. even with 24 str its a hell of a break DC. its poison is DC 22, and needs two saves to cure - my rogue is almost certain to die from the con damage if he takes a hit, since hes unlikely to make the saves. i've considered having my own pc, a cleric, make them a collection of potions which includes one or two of delay poison. but it seems a bit too meta-gamey. (she wont be coming to fight this creature) i offered them her brewing services already, and they are clamoring for healing pots. so simple minded! :P...

Never do a single enemy boss fight...giving them PCs 3 times the attacks per round in this case will make that spider look like a baby.

My advice is leave him how he is and just buff him up a bit, and toss in a few of those CR 3 spiders to just keep the PCs busy. Make them work on strategy beyond "LETS ALL HIT THE BIG GUY!"


Well there are a couple of other things you can do to up CR. Multiple creatures has been mentioned. That has the advantages ossian mentioned and you avoid the instant death level DCs. Two of the same creatures puts you at CR+2. So if you want a CR 6 monster, that means 2 CR 4s. Add the advanced template to both spiders and you've got slightly higher than listed DCs, more action economy and what should be a memorable fight.

Dark Archive

You could use the advanced template and then bring up it's HD to to change it to a CR 5 vs CR 6.

Then for a +1 CR you can give it Max hp for its HD. Throw in a toughness feat and DR 2/- or DR 3/- (great for multiple foes/action economy) for a full transition from CR 5 to 6 (not checking any numbers here).

This gives it more hp while keeping some of the DCs in a more controllable range.

Just a suggestion.


In short, no, you aren't doing it right.
But you made a pretty cool monster (about CR 7).

One, when you increase the HD by over 2x, it's suggested you bump up a size. The advanced template is about the same though.
Two, the h.p. gained by CR increase also includes the Con h.p. too. So it's not 6d8 to get about 30 extra h.p., it's 3d8+15 (Con 20).

For example, the Ogre Spider (Bestiary I) is 7HD, CR 5, Huge.
(You have +4 HD & advanced template (+3 CR), smaller (-1 CR) for about CR 7 mentioned above.)

Restart, using Medium, HD 3, CR 1 Bestiary spider as base.
Add Two size advances & 4 HD (which they say gets you to CR 5).
You get, from chart p. 296.
Str +16 for 27, 28 w/ HD boost
Dex -4 for 13
Con +8 for 20 (DC 18 base for DC 20 poison,DC 18 web)
Natural Armor +5 for +6 total. (AC 15: +6 Nat, +1 Dex, -2 Size)
HD 7d8: 31.5+7x5 Con for 66 h.p.
Bite: +12 (5 BAB +9 Str -2 Size) 2d6+13 (20 ave.)

If you look at it in 'cleaner' terms, it's like adding two "Giant Creature" templates and 4 NPC Warrior levels (which is also +4 CR total), except 1 Nat armor less and no weapon/armor proficiencies/class skills, and mindless creatures can't take classes.
This is CR 5, and compares well with the Troll, a good baseline CR 5 creature. Less damage on full attack, but better attack + poison + web.
Similar h.p., AC.
Saves: Fort +10, Ref +3, Will +2
Note: This spider does 1d4 Str. damage poison (I increase poison damage w/size). For Con, reduce to 1d3 or 1d2. Not sure when one would bump from "Cure 1 save" to "Cure 2 saves".

For CR 6, you could add:
Advanced Template (increasing att.+2, Damage +3, DC +2, h.p. +14, AC by 4 (2 Dex/2 Nat))
or 2 more HD (increasing DC by 1, h.p. by 19, Stat boost Dex by 1 (for AC +1), & Att +1)
(As you can see, not all +1 increases are the same...so maybe go 3 HD for DC +2, h.p. +28 Att +2, Stat boost Dex by 1 for AC +1) This would make it beefy, but with AC allowing all attackers chances to hit.
Or you could rebuild by making it intelligent...and getting feats.
Toughness, Combat Reflexes, Ability Focus (poison), AF (web) would do it, and CR feat would help with action economy. Also, Improved Natural Attack would be good. Avoid Vital Strike (too powerful for creatures with one big attack.) The AF (web) may be too much because...

Webs vs. a small party can be a TPK.
I had a party I'd run at APL+2 as baseline and I threw two big spiders at them, with nothing special planned. Spiders were above, and everyone got webbed except the Rogue/Ranger who had to Escape Artist most every round. Eventually he dropped one and then freed an ally. Nasty, and it wasn't a small party.

Do they have anti-toxin? Maybe a would-be spider killer's corpse has some lying around.

As for the finale, single BBEG's do have difficulties, sometimes lasting too long, more often lasting too short.
This guy's probably too tough for allies, but you could have the battle happen in waves.
Huge room (100'+), full of webs throughout.
1st wave: Spider swarms (3), rounds 1-5
2nd wave: Medium Spiders (3+), rounds 6-10
3rd wave: Mama...
Being Huge, they could see her shadow wending through the webs as the medium spiders enter combat...better finish off these 'little' guys fast. This gives her 'stage time' to induce fear before even arriving.
Also, this gives them time to drink anti-toxin/delay poison, as they should be able to finish the battles before the next group arrives.
(If they aren't ready for swarms...well, that could get messy.)

I prefer the Str. damage, as ineffectiveness can be scarier than death, especially when a Huge creature's approaching.


wow some great responses! thanks folks. where to start...

i know its usual to bump the size of something when you increase its HD like that, but i wanted to keep it at large so it can hunt my PCs through the tunnels surrounding its lair (the spider has taken up residence in the central room of an old dwarven 'rite of manhood' maze).

i did wonder about the HP thing, and including con to work out its new HD. i think i might rework it with the lower HD, and see how it comes out. tempted to drop the 'strong webs' too to make that a little more manageable for my smaller party.

i like the 'advanced' template for its +4 to all stats - this gives it the int score you mentioned - which will let me take a few feats for it.

i know its generally considered better to have multiple enemies, but for a smaller party i think a single BBEG is do-able. especially in a situation where its not really just the monster they are fighting, the whole situation is against them. the room is going to be webbed out, so its difficult terrain. they also have the web attacks to deal with, and any PCs trapped are likely to require help getting out. i think this will soak up their actions nicely.

im also planning for the spider to have a good chance at surprising them, so it will open with webs from the ceiling or similar to try and seperate the party, then bite anyone it can isolate and lets it poison work its magic.

i will post gain once i've reworked it a bit.


alright, this is where it ended up! i got rid of strong webs, and the racial bonus to the poison DC. i also reduced the con damage to 1d2 (from 1d3)

GIANT BLACK WIDOW SPIDER CR 6
XP 2400
N Large vermin
Init +4; Senses darkvision 60 ft., tremorsense 60 ft.; Perception +6

DEFENSE
AC 20, touch 14, flat-footed 15 (+4 Dex, +6 natural, +1 dodge, –1 size)
hp 76 (8d8+40)
Fort +11, Ref +6, Will +4
Immune mind-affecting effects

OFFENSE
Speed 35 ft., climb 35 ft.
Melee bite +13 (1d8+11 plus poison)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
Special Attacks web (+10 ranged, DC 19, 5 hp)

STATISTICS
Str 24, Dex 19, Con 20, Int 4, Wis 14, Cha 6
Base Atk +6; CMB +14; CMD 29 (41 vs. trip)
Skills Climb +20, Perception +4; Racial Modifiers +8 Climb, +4 Perception, +7 Stealth (+11 webs)
Feats dodge, mobility, spring attack, fleet

SPECIAL ABILITIES
Poison (Ex) Bite—injury; save Fort DC 19; frequency 1/round for 6 rounds; effect 1d2 Con and staggered; cure 2 saves. Save DC is Con-based


Hmm... I don't think you can 'officially' up its Int by just adding the 'advanced' template - technically, the critter had Int as a non-score... and the 'mind-affecting effects immunity' is based on that very Non-Int. Problem is, sans Int, you won't get these nifty feats...

PRD suggest declaring vermin with Int as either animals, or magical beasts (a 4 INT already qualifying spidey as magical beast)... which would still nix the immunity, but yield a crapton of other neat thingies (fast BAB, d10 hit dice, one more good save (Reflex), Climb and Perception suddenly becoming class skills for an additional +3...)

I'm just not sure whether or not a magical beast version of your spider would still qualify as CR6, or already slip up into CR7...

Next question: In the top line, you state 'Perception +6', under statistics, you have 'Perception +4'... did I miss a +2 bonus somewhere?


ah, i see. the magical beast thing is interesting, but im not sure if i will have time to reconfigure it again.

as for the perception, i must say the original sheet was a little confusing on that front. but basically i have added the bonus to perception from her increased wisdom in the senses line, and forgotten to do so under statistics.

however the way its laid out - skills, climb 20, perception 4 - racial modifiers, perception +4 etc

you could be forgiven for thinking it had 4 ranks in perception, and a bonus of 4 from its race for a total of 8.

oh and the mind affecting thing is mildly irrelevant, since none of my PCs have mind affecting abilities anyway. though i guess if someone should happen to borrow it they might want to be aware of that point :)


I think the "Magical Beast" suggestion in the Bestiary is for new monsters. Adding templates doesn't change type unless it specifically changes type. Even then, it doesn't usually change base stats.

I, too, am not sure a +4 Int to a "-" Int does anything. Just like a +4 Con to a construct/undead doesn't do anything.
That doesn't mean you can't handwave it. Have it say something to really give them the frights.

Spring Attack in webby terrain, and w/ poison. :)
"Here, let me extend this combat a bit longer while you suffer."
Put some living victims or scrolls/tapestries/treasure in the webs so they don't just burn the whole webwork down.

Without crunching numbers, your spider looks about right for CR 6.

Have fun!
JMK

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