I think the problem in Forgotten Realms stems from the fact that Ao will b****slap you to oblivion if you try to have the same portfolio as another god, and that's why they made so many deities that are similar but slightly different. The same doesn't usually apply in other settings, but I see what you are getting at.Why must there always be gods for everything? And more importantly, why would these gods if they exist as a lesser form of deity, be powerfull enough to grant boons to clerics?
I've always been a strong believe that gods gain their powers from how much faith they receive, which technically has been the modus operandi in FR as well. Then why are there gods of obscure concepts, such as -waterfalls-, -unicorns-, or the natural element of fire.
These are very specific concepts that is usually overshadowed by greater gods of nature and likewise. Leave specific concepts up to demigods, but I don't think they should have clerics of them.
Ao's rule is that you can't have more than one god higher than demigod with the same portfolio. That's why Savras and Velsharoon were only demigods.
I have always rejected the notion that gods gain power from the worship/faith they receive. That would make them less than gods, but to each his own.
Stuff
Man, you just keep writing great things!
I don't always agree (especially about a few of your deity choices), but man a lot of what you write is great.
... I stick my hands over my ears when James says she isn't an Old One...
What? When did he say that? Sad Tacticslion is sad. :(
FR v. Golarion v. GH
Man, FR had some great gods. I loved 'em. (Well, most of 'em.) I enjoyed the all-too-mortal-ness of some of them, while some still maintained a true distance away from mortality that was intriguing. I enjoyed pretty much all of it with few exceptions (Cyric). I enjoyed Ao and the "easy" ascension (and, by corrollary "descent") conceit, as they were very unique campaign elements.
Golarion has a fantastic pantheon that I've yet to see anything that I truly find uninteresting. Some things may seem a little "underdeveloped", but... actually they don't to me. I've found them rich, vibrant, and the more I poke at them the more fascinating they get. Complexity and ancient history is intriguing and I look forward to finally being able to bash out or read a (more) comprehensive history for the thing. I really hope Desna can still be an Old One, however.
Grey Hawk (and by extension "Core" 3rd, even though they were "different") never really progressed beyond the feeling of "man, this is kind of a generic deity with a vaguely interesting back-story" to me. Corellon of FR was far, far more interesting than Corellon of Core/Greyhawk. That said, some of GH was pretty good. Wee Jas is consistently mentioned. Some of the lesser deities were nifty.
Dragonlance: ... eeeeehhhhhh... okay? I mean, they were neat and all, but it would have been really fascinating for Paladine to have been Bahamut and Takhisis to be Tiamat (etc) but the rather firm insistence of "no, never!" was a bit strange. I liked some of the inter-complexity and the very (to me) straightforward lineage of the gods' lines. It felt very nifty and unique. I just couldn't get behind their personalities as well as others.
Eberron: What deities? Seriously, though, aside from the Silver Flame there was zero evidence that deities existed at all. And the "Divine" attributes of the Silver Flame were questionable. That said, I loved the way they were handled (over-all).
I hope the following comes across as respectful, even if you all disagree. :)
For me, the good aligned Golarion gods are the first time I've not seen any I could enjoy worshiping in a game with a good-aligned cleric. So for me, they are a bit awkward.
I do actually *like* the Lawful Good gods, at least I really like Iomedae and the home guardian guy ... Erastil. Usually I can't stand any LG gods. These folks seem fine, actually. So I could almost play a NG or CG follower of one of them. But Shelyn and most other love goddesses like Sune usually don't interest me much. Sarenrae is what I usually find repellent about LG gods ... pushy, wont leave you alone. You WILL be happy and good ... or else. Cayden is a drunk gamer that became a god, which is a little too on the nose for me. Desna is too happy dreamy tripped out space camper. At least based on the original fluff I read. And despite the occasional monster slaying. Apparently newer books are trying to make her more hardcore and/or and Old One, which would shift me from "not my thing" to "hate it". But the damage is done there for me. There are too many different things going on, and none are quite my thing anyway. Oh and Torag ... well I never usually like any LG or LN style Dwarven artifice/forge gods. But no biggie.
So, the major good gods just don't work for me. I know others love them.
I don't usually ever like evil gods so I've mostly ignored those. Tho actually I kinda dig the way Asmodeus works in the setting. The others don't grab me, but don't disappoint either. Maybe I would have stronger feelings if I had the Faiths Of ... book for the evil gods. If there is one.
For the neutral gods, I would probably be ok with Gozreh, were it not for the dual gender avatar and locale (make sky - female water) deal. I would rather have a genderless deity, or a gendered one, or even one with both genders in one body. But I tend to not like dualistic or split gods; either mentally or physically split/apart/divided.
Calistria is almost cool. However, I dont like the association between revenge and lust, especially because it seems to be kinda split out by alignment. Good aligned followers tend to be into pleasure, evil ones are more into the revenge side. A little too obvious, and also I seem to recall somewhere that clerics have to pick one or the other aspect as the primary interest. So ... while I certainly don't mind unrelated things being aspects of a deity (fire, healing, good, destruction :)), I don't like it when I feel like the aspects have to remain apart from one another. And typically, I don't like revenge gods anyway. I do like lust / hedonism / joy type gods.
As for Nethys, again, all too dualistic for me. Its like somehow not OK for a neutral god to simply be neutral. They have to be Yin and Yang, or crazy, or dual-natured or multi-faceted. Nothing wrong with the design of this god per se, I just don't like stuff like this. Now if Nethys was also the god of Madness, THAT would at least make sense with the split mind concept. I mean if you are gonna make the god almost insane, just go all the way. But the two crazy / different minds in one body thing otherwise is just ... too much of what I'd expect, or something. And pushes my personal peeve buttons. No biggie.
As for Pharasma, after Kelemvor from the FR, I'm already a bit weary of a death god that dislikes the undead and needless resurrection, etc. Tho I guess it gives characters with a different opinion a philosophical position to oppose. Irori, Gorum, and Abadar are fine, but Monk/Discipline gods bore me, War Gods and Battle Gods dont work well with the kinds of characters I like to play, and gods of Law are sometimes fun, but Abadar doesn't quite seem as interesting as Aroden was.
So there you have it. :) For the major gods.
Quite a few of the lesser/other gods do interest me. I'm quite partial to Alseta for some reason. Besmara is also cool, despite the fact that I normally find pirate stuff to be a style I dislike. Hanspur is cool, tho I don't like the trident being associated with him. Naderi is great. I could see how some might view her as a bit predictable, but I just think the god works. I think unlike most others tho, I dislike Milani. No biggie.
Anyway, I just wanted to go through some of my thoughts on the gods. Currently, I have to dip into lesser gods to get ones I like, or dip into Empyreal Lords to get ones that might grant powers I want. Most of the major gods just dont do it for me at all, except strangely 2 of the LG gods ... which are usually the ones I hate most in pantheons (as a player).
Cool. I'm looking forward to it!
You know what I'm truly missing? Things like creation myths. If it was written in a less than clear way, like in the Princes of Darkness and with minor tweaks that would make individual gods more important for the reader of his own religious text, it would actually give GMs more maneuvering space and if there was also a regional difference and differences between pantheons...
I'm really missing this from most of the compaign settings. They have the timeline set and one hard truth is boring. I mean it's feasible for a region, but not so much for whole continents. Could we for example have Garund and Avistan different? And Dragon Empires and Vudra...
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Man, FR had some great gods. I enjoyed pretty much all of it with few exceptions (Cyric).
If I didn't already like you, I'd have to like you all over again for excepting Cyric there. :)
I liked the human Cyric, in the first novel, who was flat out a better friend to Midnight than full-of-himself whiny angst-monkey Kelemvore.
(Really, who among us doesn't root for the guy who is trapped in the 'friend zone' of the hot girl who ignores him, because she's pining for some self-absorbed jerk?)
And then the next book, I think by a different writer has him go straight past 'Malcolm Reynolds, rogue with a heart of gold' to 'The Joker, from The Killing Joke.'
But, even if he wasn't the keystone cop of incompetent evil, his ganking of Lleira, goddess of deception, trickery and illusion, by inviting her into a van with the promise of candy, earned him my eternal displeasure.
"Why yes, I've just killed and eaten somewhere between two or three gods, including the gods of treachery and assassinating people, and absorbed their portfolios, but I assure you I just want to talk. Oh, and come alone. And if it's not too much trouble, slather yourself with this honey-barbecue marinade..."
Dragonlance: ... eeeeehhhhhh... okay?
The various gods of Dragonlance looked neat, on paper, but we never saw any of them but Paladine (usually in his annoying old geezer tagalong deus ex machina role, as Fizban) and Takhisis (who was boringly two-dimensionally eeeeevil, and came off as a Disney movie evil queen or something), and, briefly, the neutral one (Gilean?). I loved the idea that there was one pantheon of the gods, and that dwarves, elves, men, etc. all worshipped them under different names. But, IMO, nothing was really done to showcase the gods other than the big two (and the Gilean cameo).
The three moon-gods of magic seemed like a neat idea.
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If I didn't already like you, I'd have to like you all over again for excepting Cyric there. :)
I liked the human Cyric, in the first novel, who was flat out a better friend to Midnight than full-of-himself whiny angst-monkey Kelemvore.
I was blessed with a late exposure to Forgotten Realms as a setting. As a direct result, I developed an early liking for Cyric. He was the Black Sun! He had stolen portfolios from those older more cliche sounding evil gods, proving his mettle! His clerics were all about, advancing their personal agendas while heaping honors upon his name! They could rely on undead, lies, mercenaries, tricks, anything!
Kelemvor, too, sounded like a great character. A grim, impartial lord of the dead! How did this man come to replace dread Myrkul? I hungered for the answers to these questions.
Little did I know what disappointments awaited me when I got my hands on those novels.
Those novels nearly destroyed my interest in the setting. *shudders* And ever since, the cool impression of both gods has been marred. Except Mystra. She never interested me, and more information about her only turned disinterest into loathing.
Creative Director
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You know what I'm truly missing? Things like creation myths. If it was written in a less than clear way, like in the Princes of Darkness and with minor tweaks that would make individual gods more important for the reader of his own religious text, it would actually give GMs more maneuvering space and if there was also a regional difference and differences between pantheons...
I'm really missing this from most of the compaign settings. They have the timeline set and one hard truth is boring. I mean it's feasible for a region, but not so much for whole continents. Could we for example have Garund and Avistan different? And Dragon Empires and Vudra...
Creation myths are one of those things we deliberately get coy and vague about, because once we say for sure how things began... they're no longer creation myths. They're history. And that more or less sets in stone that a lot of the religions and philosophies in Golarion would be flat out wrong. That's not a world I'm interested in presenting.
A big part about creation myths is that they should be myths. Which is why when we DO talk about the super ancient past, we get all vague.
That's a good point actually, and could leave us wondering which came first: Apsu or Asmodeus.
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Creation myths are one of those things we deliberately get coy and vague about, because once we say for sure how things began... they're no longer creation myths. They're history. And that more or less sets in stone that a lot of the religions and philosophies in Golarion would be flat out wrong. That's not a world I'm interested in presenting.
A big part about creation myths is that they should be myths. Which is why when we DO talk about the super ancient past, we get all vague.
But those aren't myths. Those are non-stories. I believe we should spam the world with creation stories. Many are inaccurate, many have a grain of truth, many are contradictory. And even then... just because the stories are contradictory doesn't mean that they can't all be true. We're talking gods here. Paradoxes are possible.
Imagine a world where in one history, the Great Old Ones eliminated Golarion from their bowels, in another, Golarion was assembled by contract from the aboleths, in another, Gozreh parted their hands, and lo, the sea and sky and land appeared between them, etc.
Then imagine the battles across the multiverse to make sure that one history and not another becomes the truth--because the past is mutable. Then someone realizes that if the past is mutable, then perhaps Aroden can be not-killed. Or the gods decide not to create Achaekek. Or a large part of Avistan is erased. Or serpentfolk remain in power.
We can make a lot of possibilities there, in the casting off of linear time!
But maybe it's just me. I prefer many truths to no truths.
Managing IP like Golarion is tough, though. I wholly see where you're coming from.
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But those aren't myths. Those are non-stories. I believe we should spam the world with creation stories. Many are inaccurate, many have a grain of truth, many are contradictory. And even then... just because the stories are contradictory doesn't mean that they can't all be true. We're talking gods here. Paradoxes are possible.
Imagine a world where in one history, the Great Old Ones eliminated Golarion from their bowels, in another, Golarion was assembled by contract from the aboleths, in another, Gozreh parted their hands, and lo, the sea and sky and land appeared between them, etc.
Then imagine the battles across the multiverse to make sure that one history and not another becomes the truth--because the past is mutable. Then someone realizes that if the past is mutable, then perhaps Aroden can be not-killed. Or the gods decide not to create Achaekek. Or a large part of Avistan is erased. Or serpentfolk remain in power.
We can make a lot of possibilities there, in the casting off of linear time!
But maybe it's just me. I prefer many truths to no truths.
Managing IP like Golarion is tough, though. I wholly see where you're coming from.
Have you been playing Mage: the Ascension? Because if not, you may be interested in looking up "The Prince of Ten Thousand Leaves" ...
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Have you been playing Mage: the Ascension? Because if not, you may be interested in looking up "The Prince of Ten Thousand Leaves" ...
Yes, I've played M:tA. And Feng Shui. One of my favorite games is Over the Edge. I don't know if the Plaza of Painted Rocks is still out in the miasma of the Internet somewhere...
I like the vague psuedo creation myths. For some reason I have time when I think of playing an obscure god cleric or paladin although I am currently playing one of desna. This really increased after I got the inner sea world guide though.
I doubt we have ever seen flumph gods as that is too specific but it would be awesome. It could end up this might be a way to make a good great old one.
Have you been playing Mage: the Ascension? Because if not, you may be interested in looking up "The Prince of Ten Thousand Leaves" ...Yes, I've played M:tA. And Feng Shui. One of my favorite games is Over the Edge. I don't know if the Plaza of Painted Rocks is still out in the miasma of the Internet somewhere...
Have you ever checked out Nobilis? Its the only game I have needed phrases like "There once will have never been"
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Have you ever checked out Nobilis? Its the only game I have needed phrases like "There once will have never been"Have you been playing Mage: the Ascension? Because if not, you may be interested in looking up "The Prince of Ten Thousand Leaves" ...Yes, I've played M:tA. And Feng Shui. One of my favorite games is Over the Edge. I don't know if the Plaza of Painted Rocks is still out in the miasma of the Internet somewhere...
Indeed! Exalted as well (though the less said of its rules as XP rises, the better).
Though I suppose we ought to table that, as it approaches a critical limit of tangency. Or consider taking it to another thread.
You know what I'm truly missing? Things like creation myths. If it was written in a less than clear way, like in the Princes of Darkness and with minor tweaks that would make individual gods more important for the reader of his own religious text, it would actually give GMs more maneuvering space and if there was also a regional difference and differences between pantheons...
I'm really missing this from most of the compaign settings. They have the timeline set and one hard truth is boring. I mean it's feasible for a region, but not so much for whole continents. Could we for example have Garund and Avistan different? And Dragon Empires and Vudra...
Creation myths are one of those things we deliberately get coy and vague about, because once we say for sure how things began... they're no longer creation myths. They're history. And that more or less sets in stone that a lot of the religions and philosophies in Golarion would be flat out wrong. That's not a world I'm interested in presenting.
A big part about creation myths is that they should be myths. Which is why when we DO talk about the super ancient past, we get all vague.
Yes, but where are those myths? So far we have one line where Asmodeus is born with his twin and from them all the lesser being and... I think there should be more of such things released. All things like the Abbyss and Daemons and so on actually do fall nicely to this scheme, which I think is unfortunate, I think they should be conflicting. Demons not admitting that daemons spawned them and denying the devils their primacy. Having multiple stories explaining various phenomena of the world could be only enriching (and confusing ;) ). We could have desnan and shelynyan follower arguing upon the origin of rainbow. There should be more "In the beginning there was..."
I think it would be nice to have national pantheons. By this I don't mean that every state should have it's own gods, but that every region could have it's own tweaks upon them, something like what you've done with religions Sagrava/Mwangi Expanse.
Taldan cultural area could have the original "default" pantheon with the fact that some religions are preferred in one state or another a bit more stressed, but for example Keleshites would have some more and ignore others. I can imagine the faith in Serenae persecuted in Taldor and next to unknown beyond, Zon-Kuthon being centered in Nidal, known in neighbouring states and next to ignored elsewhere and so on. Also a nice touch would be to include how different regions depict various gods. Abadar could be the typical armoured man with crossbow in Taldor and possibly a bald, shaven scholar with geometric tools and pick in Osirion, that could praise him for building, wells, cities, pyramids and other marvels of civilisation in the desert. Various regional names would also be nice to have included.
I don't mean that such things would be possible now, but it would be nice if they appeared later.
Sarenrae is what I usually find repellent about LG gods ... pushy, wont leave you alone. You WILL be happy and good ... or else.
Just for the record, Sarenrae is NG, not LG.
But making up new gods for settings is fun! So carry on.
-- C.
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Sarenrae is what I usually find repellent about LG gods ... pushy, wont leave you alone. You WILL be happy and good ... or else.Just for the record, Sarenrae is NG, not LG.
But making up new gods for settings is fun! So carry on.
-- C.
She can also have Neutral clerics and followers, willing to burn evil off the face of the earth rather than work to redeem it (hence a schism).
Also Shelyn is the most playable love goddess in any campaign setting with a rich backstory that makes for complicated situations involving zon-kuthon's followers.
Sarenrae is what I usually find repellent about LG gods ... pushy, wont leave you alone. You WILL be happy and good ... or else.Just for the record, Sarenrae is NG, not LG.
But making up new gods for settings is fun! So carry on.
-- C.
She can also have Neutral clerics and followers, willing to burn evil off the face of the earth rather than work to redeem it (hence a schism).
Also Shelyn is the most playable love goddess in any campaign setting with a rich backstory that makes for complicated situations involving zon-kuthon's followers.
How is the emperyal lord Arshea any less playable?
Psiphyre,
My language was unclear, but I was aware she was NG. What I was trying to say was that I actually almost like the LG gods in Golarion. Whereas Sarenrae has the personality traits I dont like of (typical) LG gods, despite the fact that she is NG.
Psiphyre,
My language was unclear, but I was aware she was NG. What I was trying to say was that I actually almost like the LG gods in Golarion. Whereas Sarenrae has the personality traits I dont like of (typical) LG gods, despite the fact that she is NG.
Hmm...
=8o -- Oh, OK!
I guess one could read it that way, too. Sorry, my bad!
Carry on. ^^
-- C.
You're probably getting sick of us folks arguing on the matter, Animation, but the god you described to me sounded EXACTLY like a cleric of Sarenrae I have on the backburner. I find a harsher Sarenrae not too much of a stretch (after all, she's been known to strike sinners blind on a whim), and I REALLY don't see her as a "preachy" goddess. Perhaps you have the wrong ideas about "redemption".
As tribal nomads say, “there are no second chances in
the desert,” and here the Cult of the Dawnflower has taken
that to heart. These hard-edged priests offer mercy once
and only once to their opponents, and if refused they are
ruthless in battle, ignoring offers to parley or surrender,
unafraid to judge neutral opponents as if they were blackhearted
evildoers.
Sarenrae is a goddess of mercy, but it's just as easy to play down that aspect and turn her into one of Retribution. This need not be a seperatist cult or waht have you. It can simply be a Neutral cleric of Sarenrae who goes to extremes with good ends. This is a slippery slope, but that's what makes it interesting to play.
She doles out harsh justice by flame and steel wherever the chance for Redemption is ignored. How do these evildoers earn their redemption? They must earn their forgiveness. Perhaps you brand them with an ankh and threaten to hunt them down if they don't forsake their wicked ways? Perhaps they are lashed to a post for three days and three nights to see if the sun goddess grants them mercy from the desert heat (that is... they survive.). Maybe they're simply granted a chance to denounce their sins for a quick death. To your cleric, this IS a kindness. The kindness of a harsh goddess. Your character would have some VERY different ideas about kindness and mercy than us gentle 21st century folk.
I think the Gods are as interesting as you make them, really. Which, sadly, I seem to have a hard time doing with many of Golarion's gods.
Some, to me, have portfolio's that are too narrow. Cayden Cailean and Shelyn both spring to mind. Some just strike me as totally boring, such as Gorum and Zon-Kuthon. Somee just don't seem to fill the holes that my players are looking for, such as Calistria as one of the only proper trickery (or "wine women and song") goddesses... though I was happy to see gods like Kurgess and Sivanah pop up and start filling these holes.
But the other gods? My favourite in any setting, hands down.
Golarion is the first setting that really made me think how the god defines the cleric, and the settings gods are, (with a few small, gorum shaped exceptions) catered to making awesome characters, from the militant paladins of Iomedae, extremist followers of Sarenrae and hedonistic clerics of Calistria. (Though I still don't know what to make of clerics of Desna, though this thread has thoroughly convinced me that they're awesome.)
** spoiler omitted **
I think the Gods are as interesting as you make them, really. Which, sadly, I seem to have a hard time doing with many of Golarion's gods.
Some, to me, have portfolio's that are too narrow. Cayden Cailean and Shelyn both spring to mind. Some just strike me as totally boring, such as Gorum and Zon-Kuthon. Somee just don't seem to fill the holes that my players are looking for, such as Calistria as one of the only proper trickery (or "wine women and song") goddesses... though I was happy to see gods like Kurgess and Sivanah pop up and start filling these holes.
But the other gods? My favourite in any setting, hands down. (Perhaps excluding Olidamarra, who used to party down with our party on many ocassions and was the only god fighting the ensuing apocalypse, got the prometheus treatment and then the GM changed pantheons enough times that nobody plays a cleric anymore...
Golarion is the first setting that really made me think how the god defines the cleric, and the settings gods are, (with a few small, gorum shaped exceptions) catered to making awesome characters, from the militant paladins of Iomedae, extremist followers of Sarenrae and hedonistic clerics of Calistria. (Though I still don't know what to make of clerics of Desna, though this thread has thoroughly convinced me that they're awesome.)
For desnan I'd suggest wanderers, dreamers, astronomers and explorers. Seeing new places with expeditions. Abadarans seek trade routes, but Desnans want to see the place first. I think you'd find a good example of these people among famous moutaineers, cultural expedition leaders and writers of abstract, playful poetry.
As for Gorumites I think this god could have another side that could give him an additional dimension. Imagine the red haired warmonger from the Kingdom of Heaven as a prototype of warmonger, but there could be more civilised variant. A Courtier that normally appears as a cultured man, but more or less openly backs the solution by force. Imagine a guy who blocks the treaties as half-hearted shoddy work or even secretly sends provocateurs to break peace and make war the only solution. He puts his mask away on the field, where he can stand in the middle of the carnage he himself organized. reaking bones and singing the praise to mighty Gorum and even gaining more glory at home when he succeeds. Various "hawk" factions in every government could have a significant Gorumite portion.
Zon-Kuthon is a bit flat, but I think it could be a good god for various self-centered suffering types. Not just the suffering spreading madmen (who are getting more frequent the more you get in his mysteries probably), but people who have seen so much cruelty in life that they have steeled themselves against it and cease to care. Slowly acting in the most direct way without any regard for how many eggs are broken, seeing their stern god as a paramount of efficiency.
Shelyn is the first god in any campaign setting that has screamed out to me and made me think I want to play a cleric of her. Her Paladin code was instrumental in this, and am looking for a game to play an inquisitor of her in.
What does an Inquisitor of a love goddess do?
"Marry your girlfriend ... or else!"
"You *are* the baby's daddy ... so pay up!"
"You call *that* a wedding ring?!" .... *decapitationLOL*
I mean, I just have to wonder. :)
An idea for a inquistor of shelyn can hunt down people who deface or steal art. Or if there are pieces of art in ruins maybe lead excavation to uncover art that is lost to restore beauty to the world. You could gaurd caravan that bring in rare pigments used in painting from far away lands.
Of course if you want something that makes a lot of sense as an inquisitor play an inquisitor of abbadar that hunts bandits or pirates.
An idea for a inquistor of shelyn can hunt down people who deface or steal art. Or if there are pieces of art in ruins maybe lead excavation to uncover art that is lost to restore beauty to the world. You could gaurd caravan that bring in rare pigments used in painting from far away lands.
You pretty much hit the nail on the head. Works perfect with the concept of Pathfinder Society. Someone who goes out and hunts for beauty that has been lost to the world, acts as a defender of those who are being oppressed (natural beauty cannot be achieved in chains), and works against those who would pervese art for their own ends (false propoganda, defemation of art). Someone who works against the workings of Zon-Kuthon while not overtly attacking him or his church.
If ... what? :)
Anyway, an Art Inquisitor seems odd to me, but I guess if Indiana Jones followed one of the gods of Golarion, it might well be as an Inquisitor of Shelyn.
Cool.
I was a huge Forgotten Realms setting fan before getting into Golarion.
My favorite FR deities were Sharess, Lathander, Selune, Sune, Kelemvor, and Shaundakul.
I've been pretty happy with the Golarion pantheon except for one thing:
No equivalent to Sharess.
Calistria is nice and all, CN elfish lust, trickery, revenge goddess. I do like that there's an actual lust goddess, but Calistria's not even very appealing. I also really like that she's the primary elven goddess because the way I usually saw elves portrayed has always been more CN than CG, and more lusty and vengeful rogues than as detached warrior-mages that appreciate art.
Sharess had the whole cat tie-in where she used to be Bast (who also subsumed Felidae, a feline beast cult goddess), and had all these ancient allies that used to know her in her other life (when she was part of the Mulhorandi pantheon as Bast) but in her contemporary life in Faerun she was all about pleasure, and self-indulgence. Yet she'd been burned by Shar during the Time of Troubles, so there was enmity there, and she still maintained her old adversarial relationship with Set as well. Then there was also Loviatar as an enemy because she perverts pleasure into sadomasochism, oppression, and torture.
Sharess was described as often appearing as a dark-haired alluring human woman, though older depictions of her as Bast were cat-headed. Her colors were ruby red and amber yellow.
That completely trumps Miss I'm-A-Sour-And-Vengeful-Elf-That-Dresses-Like-A-Wasp.
Though Calistria is a perfect fit for many female elves I've encountered in my time RPing.
Absolutely love Sarenrae though. An ascended angel with fiery hair that fights with a scimitar? So cool. My red-headed Lathander bard/cleric/divine champion was a half-Calishite from Calimshan (her father was Chondathan ethnicity) and always considered the scimitar her favorite sword, though she primarily used a light mace. Sarenrae would have fit her better than Lathander did.
Desna (CG) seems a near enough analog to Selune (CG) to me that I use her roughly the same way. The same is true of Pharasma (N) to Kelemvor (LN), and Shelyn (NG) to Sune (CG). The alignments aren't exactly the same, but the deities themselves are reasonably close matches. Of course no paladins for Pharasma, but them's the breaks.
I like how there are more fiendish lords than evil gods in Golarion. It always seemed a little weird in FR how there were so many evil Greater Powers running around. Of course you've still got Asmodeus, Zon-Kuthon, Norgerber, Urgathoa, and Rovagug (did I forget one?) but it feels like a lot more evil is coming out of individual fiends and from secret societies than from the evil gods themselves. Of course there are a lot of lesser evil gods like the Mantis God (worshiped by the Red Mantis assassins), and Groetus is evil, I think, and so on, but they feel more like lesser forces than movers and shakers in the campaign world.
Anyway, still hoping for a more Sharess-like deity to show-up in print.
Have you tried looking at one of the lesser deities instead? Milani for example? Or Nanderi if you take upon venerating what she used to be before the suicide incident?
Despite the stars / night stuff, Desna feels less like Selune to me, and more like Milil-meets-Shaundakul.
As for Milani, I dislike her, or her portfolio/area of concern. Well, IIRC. She is the one all into overthrowing unjust rule, and uprisings. Which, sure, I am in favor of in theory, but she seems to focus more on the oppression of law rather than being for good itself, and seems to focus more on the event. The fluff I read even implied that the clergy knew they werent important when there wasnt an uprising, so they'd bide their time. A little too French Revolution-meets-opportunism. And too likely to bog a PC down into siege / overthrow / politics plots.
But thats just an impression.
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Despite the stars / night stuff, Desna feels less like Selune to me, and more like Milil-meets-Shaundakul.
As for Milani, I dislike her, or her portfolio/area of concern. Well, IIRC. She is the one all into overthrowing unjust rule, and uprisings. Which, sure, I am in favor of in theory, but she seems to focus more on the oppression of law rather than being for good itself, and seems to focus more on the event. The fluff I read even implied that the clergy knew they werent important when there wasnt an uprising, so they'd bide their time. A little too French Revolution-meets-opportunism. And too likely to bog a PC down into siege / overthrow / politics plots.
But thats just an impression.
Funny my impression was more along the lines of this, which is a lot more compelling and a lot more serious, to the extent of beleiving the holy symbol was inspired by 'The White Rose'.
The reason she is my favorite of the Golorian gods is I picture someone (Cleric or Oracle) living quietly in say Cheliax, but whose 'life' is not important, who work for the day when a revolt will be possible, but when revealed show themselves to be the bravest and most genuinely good people, putting their lives on line in the most meaningful way possible, so it will inspire others and undermine the unjust.
Ker,
Yeah, thats totally cool, its just not my thing. Very fun for a Cheliax game tho, if that's your inclination for deity!
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Ker,
Yeah, thats totally cool, its just not my thing. Very fun for a Cheliax game tho, if that's your inclination for deity!
That's okay. It's the kind of thing I try to remember when I RP a good character. I guess I think most people are neutral at best.
As for the Golarion Gods, I remember looking at the 3.0-3.5 gods in Deities and Demigods and feeling they came out lacking compared to the historical pantheons described. They were clearly artifical creations that had nothing to do with the reality that most people lived. There basically, there would be a god magic, bards, gnolls and orcs but not one of housewives or craftsmen.
FR gods, when I read that book, came closer to the mark of having Dieties that felt 'real'. I feel like the the Golorian dieites, like the forgotten realms dieties come close perhaps a little closer to the mark of the kind of dieties I want; one for scorned women, embodiments of inner beauty and of tyranny, destruction, of death meaningless death and ultimate mercy as well as pain and suffering while balancing the need for 'adventuring' dieties.
It's why I think these dieties are my favorites so far.