Versatile Performance and Ranks already spent.

[Mygrrd]

My question is if you have 5 ranks in Sense Motive and then use versatile performance to sub Sense Motive with your Perform: Sing ranks, what happens to the ranks you've already invested into Sense Motive?

I read on a forum somewhere that someone asked this and they were told you get refunded those points to spend elsewhere, but I can't find an *official* source citing this. I remember the reason was because the designers didn't wanna punish people for getting class abilities or something similar to that.

Anyway, a clarification would be cool and maybe a point in the direction to an official post or errata saying so as I have to convince my DM of this.

Thanks a bunch!

[Mojorat]

Mygrrd wrote:

My question is if you have 5 ranks in Sense Motive and then use versatile performance to sub Sense Motive with your Perform: Sing ranks, what happens to the ranks you've already invested into Sense Motive?

I read on a forum somewhere that someone asked this and they were told you get refunded those points to spend elsewhere, but I can't find an *official* source citing this. I remember the reason was because the designers didn't wanna punish people for getting class abilities or something similar to that.

Anyway, a clarification would be cool and maybe a point in the direction to an official post or errata saying so as I have to convince my DM of this.

Thanks a bunch!

generally speaking it is best to assume if something you get later in a char invalidates something earlier that nothing is refunded.

so you do not get your ranks back any more than a wizard who too the martial weapon feat would get it back if he later took a fighter level.

really though as with everything it's ultimately up to your dm

[Wolfthulhu]

I think Mojorat has it right.

Related and something that came up recently in our game, what happens if you have Versatile Performance: Sing and you equip an item that boosts your Sense Motive? Does it apply to your VP ranks or no?

My leaning is towards no... which sucks because I'm the one playing the Bard. I'd be perfectly happy to be proven wrong.

[Cheapy]

The only retraining rules are for fighter bonus feats. You are stuck with those ranks, as far as I can tell.

There's no errata.

[Cheapy]

No. You can use either sense motive or the perform bonus. There's no relation otherwise. It's a strict one or the other.

[Mygrrd]

Hey everyone, thanks for the replies but I think I found my answer in the form of James Jacob himself. In a response he made back in 2010 on Enworld's Pathfinder discussion boards where he said that the reason why Versatile was given to the bards "was to give bards more skill points without artificially increasing their total skill points." In my opinion making those points useless does the opposite of that (they effectively LOSE total skill points)and in the post he went on to say that it should be fixed. Regarding bonuses to skills that get 'replaced' with Versatile Performance skills he also seems to think they should still apply. At least that's what I interpreted from his post.

Here it is C&P from those boards if you want to look and interpret it yourselves.

"Versatile Performance's design goal was to give bards more skill points without artificially increasing their total skill points AND to put an emphasis onto the Perform skill for them after the Perform skill's importance regarding bardic performance lessened from its importance in 3.5's version.

The result isn't perfect, alas. And it's something that I very much would like to see addressed in FAQs or errata or, most likely, in the upcoming Advanced Player's Guide.

The two basic elements: bards should be able to "reschedule" their skill ranks in skills that Versatile Performance duplicates every time the gain a new Versatile Performance; this allows a bard to be good at, say, Fly and Acrobatics until he gets Versatile Performance (dance), and once he DOES get that, lets him reapply skill points previously spent on Fly and Acrobatics to other skills. This'd work similarly to how sorcerers get to repick spells periodically.

The other element is that when you use Versatile Performance to use a Perform skill for another skill, bonuses you'd get to that other skill from things like Skill Focus or other Feats, racial modifiers, magic items, and the like SHOULD apply to your Perform skill check when you're using it for those particular versatile skills. In effect, Versatile Performance gives you a pair of "phantom skills" with the corresponding "phantom skill points" each time you gain it.

If instead you want to just kill the Versatile Performance ability entirely, my suggested fix would be instead to increase the base skill ranks per level granted to bards by 2 each time they would normally gain Versatile Performance. These skill rank increases should probably be retroactive.

ANYway. It's something that I might call a personal crusade to get fixed. Might be a while before it sees print, but them's my thoughts, anyway."

[Cheapy]

The 5th printing of the CRB went out yesterday. If it's not in there, James Jacobs wasn't able to convince the actual developers and this isn't official.

I do not recall seeing it in there. I did read it somewhat fast though.

[Mygrrd]

Cheapy wrote:

The 5th printing of the CRB went out yesterday. If it's not in there, James Jacobs wasn't able to convince the actual developers and this isn't official.

I do not recall seeing it in there. I did read it somewhat fast though.

Oh, I never said it was an official rule, sorry if my post mislead you to believe so. I said that was my interpretation based on his opinion/post and that that's pretty much good enough for me. I admit I was excited to come across that post of his and may have come off as too self-assured about it, which I'm sorry for as well. I'm fortunate that James Jacobs' opinion will probably be good enough for my GM too actually, since he's a cool guy.

[sieylianna]

Versatile Performance is great when you are creating a higher level character, but at low levels, you need to balance how good you want to be with how many skill points you are prepared to waste.

[Wolfthulhu]

Cheapy wrote:

The 5th printing of the CRB went out yesterday. If it's not in there, James Jacobs wasn't able to convince the actual developers and this isn't official.

I do not recall seeing it in there. I did read it somewhat fast though.

'Actual developers'? Really, could you be just a little more condescending?

[Mort the Cleverly Named]

I don't think it is condescending. James himself has said that his answers about rules are basically "what he would do as a GM." He is a good GM, and has more insight than most of us into what the rules people think, but it is not his official job and not something that should be taken as gospel.

I'd assume it hasn't been changed because that would be a revision, while the new CRB printings just include errata. Maybe in Pathfinder v1.1, we can get retrained ranks, redesigned stealth, and other little goodies. But Paizo seems pretty dead set against making people re-buy books, which you have to respect.

[Cheapy]

Wolfthulhu wrote:

Cheapy wrote:

The 5th printing of the CRB went out yesterday. If it's not in there, James Jacobs wasn't able to convince the actual developers and this isn't official.

I do not recall seeing it in there. I did read it somewhat fast though.

'Actual developers'? Really, could you be just a little more condescending?

Sorry, I was not aware that he was a developer. I always thought that he was the creative director, not one of the rules developers. I guess I must've been wrong.

[Bobson]

Don't think of it as wasting skill points. Think of it as suddenly gaining a new skill point or two to spend.

A first level bard puts a rank each in Diplomacy, Bluff, Perform (keyboard) and Perform (sing). That's 4 points to get 4 skill ranks total.

At 2nd level, he chooses (sing) for versatile. He puts his four points in Diplomacy, Perform (keyboard), Peform (sing), and UMD. From versatile, he's now got effectively two ranks in Bluff and Sense Motive. He now has spent 8 points to get 11 skill ranks. Yes, if he was built at 2nd level, he could have spent 8 points to get 12 ranks, but if he was any other class, or he swapped out that ability, he'd be at 8 for 8.

Likewise, at 6th level, when Diplomacy stops being worth putting points in, he now has another free point to start putting somewhere. It's like how Int bonuses worked in 3.5, and how skills work if you multiclass - suddenly you have a different number of points free to spend. That may mean you get to start a new skill at a low rank, or you have to abandon a skill to stagnate.