Suboptimal multiclassing

[Douglas Muir 406]

Creating a 1st level PC, party needed a cleric. Decided he'd be a plump jolly Friar Tuck kinda guy, Cayden Cailean, lots of drinking and eating and singing loud songs in taverns.

Tentative build:

Cleric 1
Bard 1
Cleric 2
Cleric 3
Bard 2
Cleric on out

This fits the character concept, but after a bit of fiddling I realized that sinking two levels into bard was *hugely* suboptimal. I could make it slightly less bad with archetypes, but it was still significantly weaker than a straight cleric or a cleric multiclassed with (for instance) fighter.

So this raises a question: assuming no PrCs, which two core classes are worst for multiclassing with each other?

I think cleric/bard has to be pretty bad, because

-- stats don't match well
-- both are 3/4 BAB, meaning the combo is likely to be even lower
-- not gaining extra armor or weapon proficiencies
-- you're giving up good high level spells for an eclectic mix of lower spells
-- you're delaying or losing access to the nifty mid- and high-level bard abilities

There are a few pluses, most notably that the bard levels give access to more and better skills. Still, not a strong combination.

But probably not the worst. Assuming only TWO classes, both core, and no PrCs, what would be worse?

Doug M.

[ericthecleric]

Maybe paladin or monk with any Int-based spellcaster.

Because: paladins and monks need good physical ability scores, and good Cha and Wis, respectively.

Mixing Good BAB (paladin) or Medium BAB (monk) with the poor BAB and hp of Int-based spellcasters ain’t good! ;) The spellcasting is diminished, too.

[Tyrgrim Stonecleave]

Monk/Bard

Nuff said

[Belafon]

I'm going with Paladin/Barbarian. You lose all Paladin abilities in Barbarian levels and then when you atone and switch back to Paladin you can't rage.

(I realize you were probably asking about sub-optimal, not completely incompatible, but I had to throw this out.)

[Squawk Featherbeak]

Kobold Paladin Druid PRC to Pathfinder Delver.

[Distant Scholar]

Cleric/Oracle.

[Abraham spalding]

Douglas Muir 406 wrote:

I think cleric/bard has to be pretty bad, because

-- stats don't match well
-- both are 3/4 BAB, meaning the combo is likely to be even lower
-- not gaining extra armor or weapon proficiencies
-- you're giving up good high level spells for an eclectic mix of lower spells
-- you're delaying or losing access to the nifty mid- and high-level bard abilities

Honestly it works pretty well. There is charisma synergy with channel energy and bard, they both cast in armor while using a shield even if it is only light, it will expand the cleric's weapon choices with whip, long sword and bow and the buffs really work well together (all the divine line of spells will stack with bardic buffs) while the additional access to more spells means the bard side can be more focused on buffs and occasional healing instead of doing everything. The lack of skill points from the cleric is covered slightly due to the fact the bard can use different skills in place of some skills and has a bonus on all knowledge checks too.

[CyderGnome]

Squawk Featherbeak wrote:

Kobold Paladin Druid PRC to Pathfinder Delver.

So you can lose your druid or paladin powers to an incompatible alignment?

[Squawk Featherbeak]

CyderGnome wrote:

Squawk Featherbeak wrote:

Kobold Paladin Druid PRC to Pathfinder Delver.

So you can lose your druid or paladin powers to an incompatible alignment?

that and you get a spellcaster and a tank, then prc to skill monkey.

[Tiny Coffee Golem]

Wizard/sorcerer. Crap ton of cantrips, but that's about it.

[Squawk Featherbeak]

Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:

Wizard/sorcerer. Crap ton of cantrips, but that's about it.

A LEVEL IN ALL CLASSES

[Maxximilius]

Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:

Wizard/sorcerer. Crap ton of cantrips, but that's about it.

Crossblooded 1 level sorcer dip disagrees with you.

[Señor Vorpal Kickass'o]

Squawk Featherbeak wrote:

A LEVEL IN ALL CLASSES

You called?

(though they are still fractions)

[Anonymous Visitor 163 576]

You might want to look at the 3.0 virtuoso. Advance cleric spell casting and bardic music.

[Douglas Muir 406]

Abraham spalding wrote:

Honestly it works pretty well. There is charisma synergy with channel energy...

Charisma will generally be #1 for a bard. For a cleric it's somewhere between #3 and #5, depending.

More generally: would you seriously say that, for instance, a Cleric 6 / Bard 2 is anywhere comparable to a straight Cleric 8?

The cleric-bard has a slightly better weapon selection, 8 more skill points, inspire courage, versatile performance, and some cantrips. The straight cleric has +1 to hit, a second attack, an extra first and third level spell, three fourth level spells, four dice of channel energy instead of three, better level-dependent spell effects, and access to his 8th-level domain powers.

This doesn't even seem close. In a fight, the straight cleric wins. As a party member, the straight cleric wins. (Who do you want at your back?) The cleric-bard isn't horrible or unplayable -- you could have fun with him, no question -- but he's definitely a full step behind the cleric.

Doug M.