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Okay first off I realize this build will not be a fully optimized Barb build but this is more of a flavor character. I love Elves and like playing them when I'm not optimizing particular builds, but this one I want to try out a Beast Totem Barb that focuses on claws and bite attacks rather than a big sword. Im going for kind of a Blodhgarm from Inheritance mixed with a Grimmmjow from Bleach kind of feel for a character. First question really is how should I go about doing this guy...I see a big focus in Str of course with a Cha dump but feat wise and stat spread I really don't know where to go with him. Also is there any way to get a natural bite attack via traits or class features or anything like that for a build like this. I thought about asking the DM for Toothy as a trait since its Orc only or adding a bite attack to the beast totem but if there is another way I've missed, I would like to hear it.
Elves don't rage. They throw hissy fits.
also I don't think Toothy is appropriate for an elf even if your DM allows it.
First, of course you can be optimized. Optimizing means maximizing your opportunities... So you are Elven Barbarian type, what are you going to do? If you leverage what you have the best you can, that's optimized. Re: Elven Barbarian optimization, you might want to look at Alt Racial Features in APG, you can substitute stuff like Elven Magic to get things that boost Stealth or other features you can actually use...
Re Bite attack, check the Animal Fury Rage Power in Core... Has a Bite attack and bonus to Grappling.
Beyond that, it's kind of open, so any Feats/Powers that make an effective combo should be game...
I'm not really familiar with the stuff you're referencing for flavor/image emulation, so can't help you there.
I believe you can get the Toothy trait through the Adopted Trait.
Err no... Toothy is an alternate racial trait, like extra feat for humans. What you get with adopted is the race traits from the traits list. Yes it sucks that both are named traits because that's confusing, but racial and race traits are not the same.
Unfortunately it's pretty confusing due to overlapping terminology,
but it seems clear that the Adopted Trait (half feat) is meant to allow access to other Traits (half feats) with Race Pre-Reqs other than your own. 'Racial Traits' as in Racial Abilities, of which Toothy is an Alternate Racial Trait from the APG, are a different thing, with nothing to do with Traits (half feats). There is also a Feat that grants a Bite attack but you need to be a Orc/Half Orc for that. But if you're a Barbarian already, the Animal Fury Rage Power gives you a Bite attack, so no need to worry about Orc only stuff.
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Unfortunately it's pretty confusing due to overlapping terminology,
but it seems clear that the Adopted Trait (half feat) is meant to allow access to other Traits (half feats) with Race Pre-Reqs other than your own. 'Racial Traits' as in Racial Abilities, of which Toothy is an Alternate Racial Trait from the APG, are a different thing, with nothing to do with Traits (half feats). There is also a Feat that grants a Bite attack but you need to be a Orc/Half Orc for that. But if you're a Barbarian already, the Animal Fury Rage Power gives you a Bite attack, so no need to worry about Orc only stuff.
I completely forgot all about the Alt Racials so Ill check those out and thanks for Animal Fury, I looked in all the books except the actual core but that is exactly what I was looking for. Im thinking of playing as a Superstitious Animal Totem focused elf and I want to play this guy in either a Kingmaker or Jade Regent campaign if I get the chance anytime soon. What kind of feats are recommended for Barbs...Ive never played one but since it is a martial character im guessing Power Attack is a must and maybe Extra Rage?? What kind of feats exist to make a natural weapon character plausible?? and is there any way to get extra rage powers???
Simple: go Urban Barbarian and be an archer. Probably mix in a few Fighter levels as you go because archery is quite feat intensive.
(S)he wants a natural weapon focused Elven Barb Nate.
Yeah, I keep forgetting that people have more specific concepts for optimization than just a race/class combo. :P
Yeah, there are ways to get natural attacks with rage powers. Maybe dipping Synthesist Summoner as well?
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I believe you can get the Toothy trait through the Adopted Trait.Err no... Toothy is an alternate racial trait, like extra feat for humans. What you get with adopted is the race traits from the traits list. Yes it sucks that both are named traits because that's confusing, but racial and race traits are not the same.
My apologies, I was thinking of Tusked.
Tusked (Half-Orc, Orc)P
Source Orcs of Golarion 23
Huge, sharp tusks bulge from your mouth, and you receive a bite attack (1d4 damage for Medium characters). If used as part of a full attack action, the bite attack is made at your full base attack bonus –5.
Which you CAN take with adopted. It is inferior to standard bites if you're focusing on a natural attack build though, so other options would be advisable if you have the resources for them.
(I am in agreement that adopted could be quite broken if it allowed simply buying racial traits as opposed to race traits. Spending a trait to let you swap something from your race for one of equivalent value from another could be cool though.)
Tusked was what I was thinking but for some odd reason I recall Toothy from somewhere and i checked on the OGC but its not there so I pulled it from somewhere. and is there a better option for a bite attack than animal fury?? Its essentially the same as Tusked so both are plausible. and I be a He for future sake and reference =D
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The unfortunate thing about both of these bites, is that they both explicitly state that if you make a full attack (even if you're full attacking with other natural weapons, in which case a bite is usually primary) it is used as a secondary natural weapon (-5 attack and 1/2 strength)
What you want if you can possibly get it is a primary bite attack.
Edit: you will find Toothy here. It's good for a natural attack build because it's actually primary, so it will stay primary even when you add claws to it. Unfortunately it's half orc only.
Exactly, I want full attack with claws and bite with none of those nasty penalties at full strength =D
My apologies, I was thinking of Tusked.
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Which you CAN take with adopted. It is inferior to standard bites if you're focusing on a natural attack build though, so other options would be advisable if you have the resources for them.(I am in agreement that adopted could be quite broken if it allowed simply buying racial traits as opposed to race traits. Spending a trait to let you swap something from your race for one of equivalent value from another could be cool though.)
I guess it's technically allowed by RAW to take Tusked, however if it was my game I would ask why being adopted by orcs suddenly lets you grow tusks, because that makes about as much sense as why a human adopted by gnomes suddenly wouldn't get taller than 3 feet.
The way it's written though (-5 if used in full attack) seems to indicate its a secondary natural attack, which is not typical for bite attacks, which are usually primary.
Both of those, Rage Power and Tusked, only specifically describe using the Bite as a Secondary weapon, but they are both real Bite attacks, so if you make a single attack with them, or don't combine them with normal Iterative Attacks (weapons or unarmed strike) then it is a primary attack with no penalty and full STR bonus to DMG. I realize that the RAW doesn't convey that, but both are written with the assumption that you are a normal PC attacking with weapons and the Bite is on top of that. Neither state the attack is a Secondary attack, and Bites are otherwise always Primary attacks, even if in combo with normal Iteratives they are treated as Secondary attacks like all other Primary attacks are. I don't have the link, but James or somebody else at Paizo has confirmed this for at least the Animal Fury Rage Power, I'm not sure about the specifics of the Trait, but it seems like it is the same case to me.
Having a bow is a good idea, and you will be better at it than a Human with the same point buy allocation.
Bows are great dealing with many enemies, shooting while your mount is moving away can be MORE than a good idea in many cases, like Hydras.
I don't know what other advice to give...
If you want to go for Grappling, you want Imp Grapple if not Grt Grapple, and dipping in Monk is an efficient way to get that... Martial Artist has no Alignment restriction, so that could be worthy.
Beyond that, just regular Feats/Rage Powers you would take for non-Reach Weapons, basically. Improved Crit isn't going to be great with Natural Weapons obviously, or other Crit-triggered Feats, but basically everything else works just fine, so basically it's just your take on what Rage Powers/Feats you like... I think Rhino Charge is a great Feat, and Unexpected Strike lets you get the AoO love about 4 levels before Come and Get Me, and also works on enemies just moving around including 5' steps.
Check out the Supestitious ARCHETYPE in APG, distinct from the Rage Power named the same thing (you can take the Archetype but not the Rage Power if you want, or vice versa, or both of them), it should upgrade your Low-Light vision to Darkvision and give some other benefits like Init and AC boosts, and at REALLY high level gives you Blindsight which is awesome sauce :-) It conflicts with the Invulnerable Rager Archetype, Scarred Hulk Archetype (UC), and the Brawler Archetype as well, but if you aren't married to those ones it's a great, interesting option although it is only really powerful at high level with Blindsight.
You're right you make a good point about Tusked and Animal Fury.
The "if used in a full attack action it's at -5" most likely really refers to the use of weapons and natural attacks in the same action (in which case ALL natural attacks are treated as secondary, no matter what).
It's just confusing because that's already handled under the natural weapons section, and this extra sentence makes it sound like it always applies in a full attack action, even if you make a full natural attack action.
However it makes alot more sense to say its a primary bite attack.
It would have been easier to just leave that -5 sentence out (or included "full attack action with weapons/unarmed strike"), but guess they added it because they figured "if someone takes that they probably don't know all those special natural attack rules too, so let's write it down again".
exactly... because many players who don't GM and don't use animal companions or summons are likely not familiar with the natural attack rules*... because natural attacks are outside the assumption of small/medium humanoid PC races that primarily use weapons/UAS. bad wording to convey that accurately, but that's what it is. funnily, the trait version doesn't even mention the half STR damage aspect...
* which currently are inconsistent between Core Rules and Bestiary, with Core rules suggesting that 2WF penalties are invoked on all attacks, while Bestiary does not (and that is what Paizo has confirmed here on the boards, although it hasn't filtered down to FAQ/Errata yet AFAIK)
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You're right you make a good point about Tusked and Animal Fury.
The "if used in a full attack action it's at -5" most likely really refers to the use of weapons and natural attacks in the same action (in which case ALL natural attacks are treated as secondary, no matter what).It's just confusing because that's already handled under the natural weapons section, and this extra sentence makes it sound like it always applies in a full attack action, even if you make a full natural attack action.
However it makes alot more sense to say its a primary bite attack.
It would have been easier to just leave that -5 sentence out (or included "full attack action with weapons/unarmed strike"), but guess they added it because they figured "if someone takes that they probably don't know all those special natural attack rules too, so let's write it down again".
Okay I'm confused just a bit on my attacks now. So say I went with Adopted/Tusked traits and Beast Totem Lesser at level 2 and while raging i have a 22 Str. So at level two I got in for a full attack I can use both claws at 1d6 a piece AND a bite for 1d4 but all attacks are at a -5??? If so then before anymore modifiers kick in all the attacks are at a +3??
If your natural attacks are all you're using, and they're all primary, then they're all made with your full BAB.
The -5 only applies to secondary attacks, or any natural attack used with a manufactured weapon.
Which is weird, because you would think the Trait version would probably be weaker than the Rage Power.
Actually it's stronger since it's a) always active and b) cheaper (costs a half-feat, while "Extra rage power" is a full feat).
However it comes with the nasty problem that you have to be raised by half-orcs/orcs, and probably know nothing or just little about your elven heritage and their customs. And if I were the GM I would not just let you handwave that away or ignore it.
Okay I'm confused just a bit on my attacks now. So say I went with Adopted/Tusked traits and Beast Totem Lesser at level 2 and while raging i have a 22 Str. So at level two I got in for a full attack I can use both claws at 1d6 a piece AND a bite for 1d4 but all attacks are at a -5??? If so then before anymore modifiers kick in all the attacks are at a +3??
Read this section: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules #TOC-Natural-Attacks
Further down it says this: "Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam). Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their available natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack’s original type."
That's where the -5 comes from.
If you only attack with natural weapons and not a sword or something as well then claws and bite are primary weapons according to that list. So yeah, you'd get 3 attacks at full BAB.
While that is alot at first level, you will NEVER get iterative attacks with natural attacks. Even at 20th level you still only do these 3 attacks. (assuming you didn't get any more somehow)
I'm only going to discuss the normal natural weapon rules, those bite options all have funky wording in them that requires DM adjudication.
I think that's the only reasonable way to approach this, regardless of the actual RAW for the abilities.
Which is weird, because you would think the Trait version would probably be weaker than the Rage Power.
Yeah... Again, why I think ignoring that stuff and using generic rules is better.
(that's been stated by Paizo for Animal Fury even if it hasn't been Errata'd yet)But ignoring that issue, that points to the problem with the Tusked trait: It does the exact same thing as a Feat granting Orc/Half-Orcs a Bite attack, even though Traits are supposed to be half-Feats. I don't think it's a balanced half-Feat for ANYBODY for that reason.
(Also, doesn't Haste give you one additional natural weapon attack of your choice? Or is that just an old houserule.)
That's another 'not yet Errata' thing, they've stated Haste and similar effects should affect Natural Attacks and UAS, but per RAW it doesnt' currently... Going with the STATED RAI is more than reasonable until they get another Printing out IMHO.
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If your natural attacks are all you're using, and they're all primary, then they're all made with your full BAB.
The -5 only applies to secondary attacks, or any natural attack used with a manufactured weapon.
But I can use all three starting at level 2 on a full attack if I went said route correct??
And Im already working on some juicy background that can go along with the Alt Racial that gives those +1s to Orcs...living with Orcs and biting like Orcs can definitely give an Elf an upperhand on that race =D and as for the actual "tusk" part of it, I would see instead about sharpening him some fangs or some Orc tribe ritual where there is competition or a right of passage so to measure up to his Orc brothers he goes through something (to be decided) and gets fangs to compete with he brethren. Of course he will be too feral to really be accepted back into fellow elven clans but now im intrigued to make a great background for him =D
But I can use all three starting at level 2 on a full attack if I went said route correct??If your natural attacks are all you're using, and they're all primary, then they're all made with your full BAB.
The -5 only applies to secondary attacks, or any natural attack used with a manufactured weapon.
Exacta-bingo. While raging you could use all three at your full BAB with your full strength bonus. Barbarians are awesome, even if Elf ones make me want to rage personally. :P
It's still nice though, considering all those attacks are always at your full BAB. (Also, doesn't Haste give you one additional natural weapon attack of your choice? Or is that just an old houserule.)
I'm pretty sure it doesn't, at least not by RAW. It specifically mentions "one extra attack with any weapon he is holding".
You are not holding your claws.It makes sense though to assume it applies to full natural attacks as well.
Consider that the same barbarian at level 20 could easily get 6 or 7 attacks.
20/15/10/5 with a weapon, then 15/15 with bite and one claw (holding the weapon in the other). Or probably even 15/15/15 with both claws, if he picks up improved unarmed strike and does kicks or something for his normal attacks.
It's your call I guess if you think 20/20/20 or 20/15/15/15/15/10/5 is better :)
However I guess for your concept IUS is actually not a bad idea and using it like that would fit. (Or the brawler rage power)
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Exacta-bingo. While raging you could use all three at your full BAB with your full strength bonus. Barbarians are awesome, even if Elf ones make me want to rage personally. :PBut I can use all three starting at level 2 on a full attack if I went said route correct??If your natural attacks are all you're using, and they're all primary, then they're all made with your full BAB.
The -5 only applies to secondary attacks, or any natural attack used with a manufactured weapon.
Okay so now we have these three lovely attacks at full attack but I can never really use more than those three unless I turn those natural attacks into secondary attacks and make my fist or sword the primary???
Okay so now we have these three lovely attacks at full attack but I can never really use more than those three unless I turn those natural attacks into secondary attacks and make my fist or sword the primary???Exacta-bingo. While raging you could use all three at your full BAB with your full strength bonus. Barbarians are awesome, even if Elf ones make me want to rage personally. :PBut I can use all three starting at level 2 on a full attack if I went said route correct??If your natural attacks are all you're using, and they're all primary, then they're all made with your full BAB.
The -5 only applies to secondary attacks, or any natural attack used with a manufactured weapon.
Yes. Bear in mind that if you do that, the STR bonus to damage will drop to 1/2 (Instead of straight strength to damage) on top of the -5 to the attack bonus for the natural attacks.
Yes, that's do-able at 2nd level, Claws via Beast Totem Rage Power at 2nd, Bite via Alt Racial Ability for Orcs.
As per above, I don't think the Half-Feat Trait for Orcs giving a Bite Attack is balanced for anybody,
Orc or not since it's replicating a FULL Feat that is also only for Orcs.
If you get a Bite via being an Orc and swapping out the normal Orc Half Die-Hard, it is fine.
If you aren't an Orc, you can grab another Rage Power via Feat at 3rd level, getting Animal Fury to give you a Bite along with the bonus to Grapple.
If you don't want to go Beast Totem (or you're only taking it for the Claws), you can also multiclass with Ranger, who with the Natural Weapons Style can choose Aspect of the Beast which can grant always-on Claw attacks. The Wild Stalker Archetype (UC) eventually gets Rage that stacks, but only taking 2 levels of it you gain the Style Feat and boost your Perception and get Uncanny Dodge which stacks with Barbarian Uncanny Dodge to give you Imp Uncanny Dodge early.
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I wouldn't want you to. Although being raised by half-orcs wouldn't have to have any huge issues (since half-orcs are a reasonable part of society in most pathfinder games), I think it would be really interesting to have been raised by Orcs. Think of the potential, of watching your adoptive parents die, and then your adoptive siblings, and then their children...How might an orc tribe (lets assume its a remote tribe and the child was stolen during a one-off raid away from their usual lands) that was unfamiliar with elves treat such a child? What would such an upbringing do to change the character's mentality compared to traditional elves?
I assume you're refering to the 100+ years starting age for elves, right?
I think it's been stated by the devs or JJ or whoever, that elves actually age relatively quickly and are "fully grown" at around the same time as humans or half-elves, but then fall into some sort of boredom for the next 80ish years, or are simply not considered adults by the other elves.
That's why they take over a human lifetime to learn the first level of a class, which humans manage in 15 years, but from then on suddenly are able to keep up. (not to mention elves are supposed to be "the smart race")
Also, spending the first 20 years of your life in diapers and the next 20 in kindergarten doesn't sound like fun :)
What I'm getting at is this: For an elf growing up in elven society it's uncommon or nearly impossible to start adventuring before they're a century old. An elf growing up in another society would most likely be forced to grow up and take responsibility alot earlier. Especially a society like the orcish one.
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Yes. Bear in mind that if you do that, the STR bonus to damage will drop to 1/2 (Instead of straight strength to damage) on top of the -5 to the attack bonus for the natural attacks.Okay so now we have these three lovely attacks at full attack but I can never really use more than those three unless I turn those natural attacks into secondary attacks and make my fist or sword the primary???Exacta-bingo. While raging you could use all three at your full BAB with your full strength bonus. Barbarians are awesome, even if Elf ones make me want to rage personally. :PBut I can use all three starting at level 2 on a full attack if I went said route correct??If your natural attacks are all you're using, and they're all primary, then they're all made with your full BAB.
The -5 only applies to secondary attacks, or any natural attack used with a manufactured weapon.
Okay so then pick up IUS around say level 1 IF I dont go with the Greataxe or Sword which wouldnt be bad since Orcs love em, but anywho then I would have a primary punch and secondary bite at -5 BUT then RAGE and get those 3 Nat attacks like a feral beast and eat goblins for breakfast??? Im loving this guy more and more as the night goes on
If you're looking to optimize the Elfbarian for damage, you might as well go with the greatsword at 1st, and save the feat on IUS. Outside of rage you can use the greatsword for 2d6 + 1.5xSTR damage, plus the bite at the -5.
Inside of rage at 1st, you get the same thing.
Come 2nd level, you still get the greatsword + bite outside of rage, and when you hulk out you can just drop the sword to make it Bite/Claw/Claw.
And that way, you could take Power Attack at 1st, which is way more important to your damage output than IUS.
Yeah... Wild Stalker (Rage Ranger) doesn't actually work with the Natural Weapon Style Feat which gives Claws, but you can dip regular Ranger 2 to get the Claws.
Clarification: If you are punching with IUS you can't use that arm for Claw attacks. You probably can make other IUS attacks, e.g. kicks or elbow slams though, while using all your Claws (that isn't spelled out in the rules, and some GMs may rule is a Monk-only feature). Dipping 1 level in Monk is a great way to get IUS AND Grapple along with Good Saves and Stunning Fist (Martial Artist changes some stuff but doesn't have the Lawful requirement that conflicts with Rage).
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If you take that Monk Dip, don't forget to consider Feral Combat Training.
What are some effects that augment unarmed strikes? Monk damage could classify (probably wont with most DM's, but it's worth asking and would only be one-two points of damage difference anyway with a dip) and Flurry (which has a specific clause in which all attacks deal full strength damage, which could, depending on DM interpretation, allow you to use all three of your secondary natural attacks with full strength bonus damage.
So here's a question. Does your DM let any 3.5 material in?
No we try to break away from all the 3.5 stuff that way if we get awesome builds and want to take them to Society or play under other DMs then we can be playing under straight Pathfinder stuff.
And I was looking at Feral COmbat Training but what effects could it really help out with...besides a Stunning Bite!!!!
And I was looking at Feral COmbat Training but what effects could it really help out with...besides a Stunning Bite!!!!
I guess most of the Style feats could qualify
Simple: go Urban Barbarian and be an archer. Probably mix in a few Fighter levels as you go because archery is quite feat intensive.
I agree with Nate; Urban Barbarian is the best way to go for your elf. However, you don't have to stick with just archery if you don't want to; the fact that you can allocate where your bonuses go (Strength, Dex, or Con) is huge. You can make a very versatile character out of it; especially if you play up the strengths of your character. For example, go Weapon Finesse, get an Agile Curved Elven Longblade and laugh at the crazy damage you can pull off when you pump your Dexterity using Controlled Rage.
I don't think it's technically legit per RAW since Rending Claws don't per se give you the Rend ability, but if your GM allows it, it seems plausible to pick up Rending Fury when you can. It's limited to 1/round, but it can seemingly work on AoOs, which is cool, as well as things like (Readied?) Vital Strikes or Charges, or single attacks within a Cleave. Just something that specifically uses the Natural Weapons you want to focus on...