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The people of Andoran, especially nearer the coast in the larger cities, are much closer to a Chelaxian cultural past than anything else, right? They were Chelaxian only a century or so ago, yes, so culturally, as much as they hate and fear the Diabolic Empire, they're still quite Chelaxian.... The way the American Colonies were still (and are still) much more English than French -- even though it was the French who helped the Colonists in The Revolution.
Here's my question -- or the point I'm testing for my Homebrew -- assuming a game did not use a "common" human language, wouldn't the official language of Andoran be Chelaxian, not Taldoran? This is what I'm struggling with. I've always hated the lame-ass idea that there's a Common tongue; I don't at all feel that multiple languages slow down game play; Players just have to bear language in mind when building their PCs.
I've been struggling with which language would be appropriate for Andoran for a couple years now, but only now is it coming up that I NEED a decision because I'm working on a Campaign for future play.
Any ideas on Andoran culture and what that would mean for their national language, Chelaxian or Taldoran?
Thanks.
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Why would there not be a 'common tongue' that trader's use? Then in order to be a merchant and be successful you need to not only know a multitude of languages but also a larger number of dialects to sell goods to those farther flung towns. A common language not only helps simplify the game but also makes commerce and trading easier and more viable as a merchant. You need only know the 'trader tongue' and have a way to communicate with other people and sell your wares.
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Why would there not be a 'common tongue' that trader's use? Then in order to be a merchant and be successful you need to not only know a multitude of languages but also a larger number of dialects to sell goods to those farther flung towns. A common language not only helps simplify the game but also makes commerce and trading easier and more viable as a merchant. You need only know the 'trader tongue' and have a way to communicate with other people and sell your wares.
if it were that simple, why isn't there a 'common tongue' in the real world?
I'm +1 on the idea that Golarion should not have had a 'common tongue'. At least they bothered to name it (Taldan) so purists like me can pretend there is no such trope.
I'm still a bit put off that they go through the bother of establishing Jistka as the language of academia and aristocracy.. then neglect to ever give the language to NPC sages, clergy, or nobles.
What's the point of making up all those cool setting-specific languages is everyone just speaks 'common'?
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*Um, yeah, I've been DMing with a "no Common tongue" Houserule for 26 years. It's my game, though Many DMs do this. I've never had any problems.
It's better; I'd say "It's better " but no -- It's better.
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Anybody have any ideas on Andoran's people and their historical/ cultural ties: Chelaxian, right, (much) moreso than Taldoran?
Am I overlooking anything, anything I need to consider about Andoran (or Cheliax or Taldor)?
Well Chelax was part of taldor for a very long time. Which is why they speak Taldan. I don't see it as a common tongue in the normal way, as it is the language spoken by the colonies of an empire.
Whatever tongue may have been spoken before Taldor conquered Chelax would have been some Ulfan/Azlant mix.
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Yeah, it's an interesting study. I see the language of Taldor's ancient western region slowly changing over the centuries due to geographic distance and so much Azlanti culture native to the area -- not unlike a transition from Old English to Middle English with the French influence akin to the Azlanti influence.
I certainly see Taldoran and Chelaxian very similar -- Italian to French, perhaps. And since Taldor is geographically as far/ close to Andoran as Cheliax, it makes it tough.
I see it as more a dialect then a different language. I easily see different dialects for each of the regions, and pretty much even different regions in the same nation. Kinda like American English, Uk English, Canadian English and so on. They are all the same Language and can be understood, but are not identical. Simple word drift, accents and even slang makes a huge diffidence.
I would list it as Taldan ( chelix) and Taldan ( andor) Myself.
Remember that language can be very different between social classes as well. I don't just mean as a matter of accent, in the RW while Latin was the language of the Roman Empire, the nobility spoke Ancient Greek. Greek was the language spoken when the Senate was in session, as well as in the Imperial courts of Rome and Constantinople.
Up until very recently French was spoken by all European nobility, and was the unofficial language of diplomats. You had to speak French to even begin to fake being educated.
Also, I once heard a story (I've no idea if it's true) that one of the reasons American English is different from the Queen's English is that after the revolution, some publishers of American dictionaries deliberately changed some words around as a way to give the Colonies their own linguistic identity.
What does this mean to you? There should be no problem with everyone speaking a common language, though there should certainly be regional differences. Very likely the common language of Andoran and Chelliax would be some kind of "vulgar" Taldoran, while nobles and the educated speak a kind of "ancient Taldoran". Said Ancient Taldoran might even be a vulger Elven, Draconic, or Thassilon.
As for what's changed? Most likely the "noble" language of Chelliax is changing over to Infernal, while in Andoran the concept of a noble language is being dismissed as anti-revolutionary. In keeping with the idea of Common Rule, there might be efforts in Andoran to standardize education that allows for some over-eager officials to "create" a common pronunciation across the country.
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...What does this mean to you?
There should be no problem with everyone speaking a common language,
Well, but there's also plenty of cases where people in the same country can't speak with their countrymen because dialects are so different.
But that's not even the issue.
For my games, dialects and accents are a roleplay thing, certainly the Taldoran spoken among the Opparan diplomats and merchants is similar to the Taldoran of Absalom's merchants and diplomats. While the Taldoran of Opparan street urchins and villagers far from the coast is a "language" of a different social class. But I wouldn't ask a Player to spend another rank in Linguistics, of course, just roleplay a bit.
For me -- in my games -- Chelaxian and Taldoran are more like Spanish and Portuguese, or Mandarin and Wu and ChowChow and Cantonese. Similar. Same roots. Requires more than 1 rank in Linguistics.
I just don't know on what side to put Andoran.
But I've been leaning Cheliax.
For my games, dialects and accents are a roleplay thing, certainly the Taldoran spoken among the Opparan diplomats and merchants is similar to the Taldoran of Absalom's merchants and diplomats. While the Taldoran of Opparan street urchins and villagers far from the coast is a "language" of a different social class. But I wouldn't ask a Player to spend another rank in Linguistics, of course, just roleplay a bit.
For me -- in my games -- Chelaxian and Taldoran are more like Spanish and Portuguese, or Mandarin and Wu and ChowChow and Cantonese. Similar. Same roots. Requires more than 1 rank in Linguistics.
I just don't know on what side to put Andoran.
But I've been leaning Cheliax.
Honestly, I think you're asking for a bit to much roleplaying from your poor players. Do you really want to listen to a bunch of bad attempts at a British/Spanish/French/Southern accent?
But yes, Andoran should fall on the Cheliax side of the equation.
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It can be argued that English is the Common of real life in the modern world.if it were that simple, why isn't there a 'common tongue' in the real world?
It could.. but it's in no way as common in the real world as 'common tongue' is in fantasy trope. I'm sure one could easily find 1,000 people in the real world who don't (and likely another 1,000 who won't) speak english for every 1 npc one could come up with who doesn't speak common tongue in golarion... if there even are ANY.
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Common is to Golarion what Latin was to medieval Europe. It was that one language that allowed you to communicate with Moorish traders, French knights, German monks, Polish craftsmen and Russian nobles.
Of course, for simplicity's sake, it is assumed that the level of literacy is far, far higher than it was IRL, but the concept stands.
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I'm sure one could easily find 1,000 people in the real world who don't (and likely another 1,000 who won't) speak english for every 1 npc one could come up with who doesn't speak common tongue in golarion.
Yeah, if we were gonna try to name a "Common" language today and base the argument on "most people who speak it," English would not be in the top 5.
(It would be in the top 5 for "most people With Money & Power who speak it" -- it'd be #1), but not for "most people on the planet who speak the same language.
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Could anyone make an argument, based on what we have from the Fluff books, adventures and novels, that "everyman" Andoran people are closer to Taldor (in culture and history and society) instead of Cheliax?
I know the setting quite well but I know many others on the Boards know it considerably better than I.
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I'm sure one could easily find 1,000 people in the real world who don't (and likely another 1,000 who won't) speak english for every 1 npc one could come up with who doesn't speak common tongue in golarion.Yeah, if we were gonna try to name a "Common" language today and base the argument on "most people who speak it" English would not be in the top 5.
(It would be in the top 5 for "most people With Money & Power who speak it" -- it'd be #1), but not for "most people on the planet who speak the same language.
But if you would make a list of languages sorted by number of countries where you can get around using that language, English would be on the top.
And I'm pretty sure that by native speaker count, English is third after Mandarin and Spanish, BTW.
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But if you would make a list of languages sorted by number of countries where you can get around using that language, English would be on the top.
Oh, absolutely true.
And I'm pretty sure that by native speaker count, English is third after Mandarin and Spanish, BTW.
Actually, not on this one.
Mandarin and Cantonese are both near a billion each. Then you have Indonesian, Hindi, (both near a billion each) and likely another Chinese language, maybe Wu or ChowChow that's equal to the 450M or so native English speakers. Then You got Spanish and Portuguese. Both bigger than English. And finally, maybe Russian but I doubt it.
But yeah, when you add the people who ALSO speak English, it's probably only behind Cantonese and Mandarin, maybe Hindi and Indonesian.
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Actually by native speakers it's the third language. Remember, there's no one uniform "Hindu" language for India, you get Hindu, Punjabi, Bengali and zillion others.
And total speakers estimates put English at 1500 million and Mandarin at 1200 million. Malay-Indonesian doesn't even come close :)
Just to add another factor to the discussion: literacy is not a single ability. It's divided into the ability to read and the ability to write. For example, in early modern Europe it was often more common that an individual could read but not write.
Well Chelax was part of taldor for a very long time. Which is why they speak Taldan. I don't see it as a common tongue in the normal way, as it is the language spoken by the colonies of an empire.
Whatever tongue may have been spoken before Taldor conquered Chelax would have been some Ulfan/Azlant mix.
Problem -- Azlanti (they and the Thassilonians were destroyed by the Earthfall) were gone by the time Taldor was even a thought, and both Taldor and Cheliax try to claim direct heritage from the Azlanti.
Andoran though is noted as it's own cultural region even before it was part of Taldor though: Andoran.
Problem -- Azlanti (they and the Thassilonians were destroyed by the Earthfall) were gone by the time Taldor was even a thought, and both Taldor and Cheliax try to claim direct heritage from the Azlanti.
Yes they were gone,however the Cheliax people who existed before being subjugated by Taldor where of a azlant/Ulfan mix. So any native language they would have spoken would have been descended primarily from those two languages. That language is no longer in use, but much like galic might still be spoken if not the primary language any more. But given the absurd age of the Taldor empire it is likely dead and forgotten.
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*dons his Hellknight helmet*
The proper language of Andoran is Chelaxian. Pretending otherwise is embracing the mad rhetoric of anarchists and insurrectionists. Taldor's mantle was passed to Cheliax at the birth of the empire. We are the proud heirs of Azlant, and even the death of the Last Azlanti cannot change our destiny.
Hrmph. Barely a century now since the unlawful secession of the provinces and the bleeding of the empire by its foes, and already they pretend that their mother tongue is something other than the basis of all modern learning. At the very least, Andoran greed will keep them speaking a common tongue in the name of commerce. And the far-flung cults and priesthoods of the gods oft have need of understanding. Chelaxian shall endure as a common tongue.
*removes his helmet*
[Note: And yes, I treat Andoran, Chelaxian and Taldan as very near and mutually intelligible for the most part.]