Aren't potions of Enlarge Person really cheap?
I'm currently playing as a Level 1 Wizard (Transmutation school: gives +1 STR), Level 2 Barbarian, Level 7 Fighter (two-handed variant). He has an INT of 14 which means skills are good for a fighter and he can use the Combat Expertise feat path. (Strength: very high. Dex & Con: mediocre.) Backstory: he started out in wizard school, but got thrown out for always getting into fights.
He's actually very effective. He only gets a few rounds of rage a day, but it's usually enough, and his strength is high. As a two-handed fighter, he loses Armour Training, but he can wear medium armour and still get the Barbarian speed bonus. That means his AC is much lower than the average Fighter, but he can use any wizard wand, including Shield and Mirror Image, making him very hard to kill. He can cast Enlarge Person too, but by the time a battle has broken out, there's usually something better I can do with my turn.
preplanned builds and the 1 level delay share the same problem. they usually don't take into account the many variables that can affect a campaign. most theoretical optimization is done inside a vaccuum against prewritten static numbers.
My reasoning for enlarge person relies heavily on what I've seen on the table, not on the spreadsheet. On round 1 its pretty rare to get a full attack, so giving up the round to cast enlarge person isn't that big a deal, and you'll more than 'break even' with one attack of opportunity.
Well, yes, but not if he's going to Enlarge first off. And if he's not going to cast that or another buff in combat, then why did he take the sorcerer dip?
Because he's not always going to be an 11th level character in order to take advantage of that. Heck, he may NEVER be an 11th level character. Campaigns end DM's move away etc.
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Aren't potions of Enlarge Person really cheap?
I'm currently playing as a Level 1 Wizard (Transmutation school: gives +1 STR), Level 2 Barbarian, Level 7 Fighter (two-handed variant). He has an INT of 14 which means skills are good for a fighter and he can use the Combat Expertise feat path. (Strength: very high. Dex & Con: mediocre.) Backstory: he started out in wizard school, but got thrown out for always getting into fights.
Why would you take combat expertise? You don't have sneak attack for improved feint. As a DM, I wouldn't let you use combat expertise which is INT based while you are raging. What you realy need is the Urban Barbarian Archetype from Ultimate Combat.
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I thought of this years ago, when Pathfinder was just a playtest actually.
A dumb Half-Orc Barbarian claiming to be the strongest mage on the face of the planet? Funny, especially when the 13ft. tall Barbarian beats the crap out of the foolish Wizard who dared to challenge him to a wizard's duel.
Bonus points for a female weasel familiar named mr. Puppy.
Why would you take combat expertise? You don't have sneak attack for improved feint. As a DM, I wouldn't let you use combat expertise which is INT based while you are raging. What you realy need is the Urban Barbarian Archetype from Ultimate Combat.
Ultimate Combat wasn't available at the time.
The rules only say you can't use INT based skills, not feats. I wanted it mainly for Improved/Greater Trip. Anyway, I'm not raging all the time. I can go into battle with rage and have an AC of 23, or use Shield and combat expertise and have an AC of 32, if that's what's needed for the situation.
Agree with BNW. He can enlarge in one round. He can cast shield if he has two (great trick when you don't use a shield). Nice advantage, when there's time to prep.
Wands to soften up the foe before closing can be nice (if expensive) too. No chance of failure means you don't waste actions for no effect at all.
well first growth domain is better option, SWIFT enlarge is sweet.
but lets look at what your really getting
+2STR, -1attack, -1AC, and an avg weapon damage bump of d6 on a 2d6 weapon
Net result
-1AC for an increase of ~4.5dmg on a hit
all this for the bargain price of a CLASS LEVEL ?
The novelty of this wears off pretty quick as does its mechanical noticeability.
its really a non issue
what you really want is for the alchemist to hand you an infused Giant Form I extract :)
Depends a lot on party makeup. Probably like you said, Phasics. When you know you'll be up against large monsters, the party caster is your friend, more than a round of your own for a short buff.
All the same, there are advantages, but losing a level of your favored class is not min/maxing. It's not horrible, either. Depends on your party and what they can or can't do.
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Aren't potions of Enlarge Person really cheap?
50 GP a potion? Agreed, that's a no brainer.
A barbarian with an adventurer's sash for potions on his chest and the "fast drinker" trait is a FAR better optimization for this approach towards a "Hulk SMASH" character concept. Cheap, too. With the Fast Drinker Power Gamer Trait™, it's just a move action to drink the potion and it's an instant effect, not a full round cast. It lasts one minute, long enough for just about any combat.
The effect is unquestionably powerful. More strength and the ubiquitous barbarian Great Axe shifts from a d12 to 3d6 in damage. That's a HUGE jump in average weapon damage. Overall, the Enlarge Person effect will achieve an additional 5 points of damage per swing. Impressive. Even more impressive when it's on a 1st or 2nd level barbarian, too.
If you must dip, don't dip for Sorceror - dip for DRUID. Why would you do that? Well, for one, the northern Vibe to the Druid is far more consistent with the Barbarian Character Concept.
The real reason is this: keep the Hulk SMASH concept, the potion of enlarge person bandolier and the fast drinker trait. In combat, you imbibe, and *then* use a shillelagh spell on your now Large club, increasing it to the Gargantuan damage range. Action economy is a little off, but you can bash the CRAP out of stuff, even at 2nd level and it counts as a magic weapon for DR purposes. Plus you get reach. Step-up is a MEAN low level feat with this build for keeping things in contact when reach is taken into account. Withdraw won't save them. Only the first 5 foot of the withdraw is for free. The second takes the Big Hurt.
Still, the Potion of Enlarge Person bandolier plus the Fast Drinker trait is a FAR better way to achieve this at 1st level and avoid dipping.
well first growth domain is better option, SWIFT enlarge is sweet.
but lets look at what your really getting
+2STR, -1attack, -1AC, and an avg weapon damage bump of d6 on a 2d6 weaponNet result
-1AC for an increase of ~4.5dmg on a hitall this for the bargain price of a CLASS LEVEL ?
The novelty of this wears off pretty quick as does its mechanical noticeability.
its really a non issue
what you really want is for the alchemist to hand you an infused Giant Form I extract :)
Sure, if you're playing a high level game with a cooperative party where the alchemist is willing to blow HIS discoveries and spells to make YOU better that works.
The party theorycrafters envision
The party we have to actually play with
You're overlooking the fact that you get reach. One mook moving towards your squishies draws an AoO and gets you your attack back.
You can run up to casters and stay next to them, preventing the 5 foot step shuffle.... the sort of thing you can usually only do with a high level fighter with a heavy feat investment.
You get a +2 bonus on all CBM rolls (+1 size +1 strength)
you net a +1 CMD (-1 dex +1 size +1 strength)
Against human sized opponents you can make those combat manuever checks without drawing an attack of opportunity, since you're out of reach.
You cover twice the area as a meatshield and threaten three times the area as a meatshield.
This is one of those things where the paper just doesn't do the reality justice. Most of the advantages are tactical rather than numeric. You have to see it played to see half the benefits.
well first growth domain is better option, SWIFT enlarge is sweet.
but lets look at what your really getting
+2STR, -1attack, -1AC, and an avg weapon damage bump of d6 on a 2d6 weaponNet result
-1AC for an increase of ~4.5dmg on a hitall this for the bargain price of a CLASS LEVEL ?
The novelty of this wears off pretty quick as does its mechanical noticeability.
its really a non issue
what you really want is for the alchemist to hand you an infused Giant Form I extract :)
Sure, if you're playing a high level game with a cooperative party where the alchemist is willing to blow HIS discoveries and spells to make YOU better that works.
The party theorycrafters envision
The party we have to actually play with
You're overlooking the fact that you get reach. One mook moving towards your squishies draws an AoO and gets you your attack back.
You can run up to casters and stay next to them, preventing the 5 foot step shuffle.... the sort of thing you can usually only do with a high level fighter with a heavy feat investment.
You get a +2 bonus on all CBM rolls (+1 size +1 strength)
you net a +1 CMD (-1 dex +1 size +1 strength)Against human sized opponents you can make those combat manuever checks without drawing an attack of opportunity, since you're out of reach.
You cover twice the area as a meatshield and threaten three times the area as a meatshield.
This is one of those things where the paper just doesn't do the reality justice. Most of the advantages are tactical rather than numeric. You have to see it played to see half the benefits.
have played it, like I said its nice early but it doesn't have the legs to make it a min/max by itself
consider for the bargain price of
Spell level x caster level x 2,000 gp = 1 x 1 x 2'000
3 charges per day
2000/5 x3 = 1'200
x2 since enlarge is 1min/lv
so 2'400gp get you a wonderous item that lets a barbarian cast enlarge person on self 3 times per day for 1 minute.
buy it in the store at full price for 4'800gp.
A min/max for a barbarian is more like this
Barbarian
Alchemsit
Alchemist
Cleric
Barbarian +++
Becuase now I've got 3 natural attacks, I swift enlarge so natural attacks go up a step to 1d8/1d8/2d6 all primary and rage as a free action, +2STR size, +4STR morale, +4 STR alchemical etc etc etc
level dips for enlarge have a purpose but they are no where near the whole story
Takes one level of Sorceror just so he can cast Enlarge on himself.
That's actually gimping himself.
That's actually gimping himself.Takes one level of Sorceror just so he can cast Enlarge on himself.
I also think alot of people miss the action economy cost with this
sure you can cast enlarge person ...cast it .. as in spend your turn on it.
now your 1 rounds worth of damage behind a barbarian who didn't cast it. you'll catch up over time sure and eventually overtake if the fight goes on long enough.
and you did just give up a d12 for d6 and +0 BAB to boot ;)
which is why anyone looking at this would be better looking at cleric and the growth domain , doesn't last as long your spending points in WIS instead of CHA which helps your Will save. you can activate as a swift so it doesn't slow you down round 1.
But in all seriousness you will spend the life of your character looking at the next level of abilities thinking I "COULD" have had those now.
COULD have had a rage powers sooner, COULD have had Improved uncanny dodge sooner, COULD have had next DR bump etc etc
If you like it play it, but be under no illusion about how "good" it really is.
pop challenge for anyone who is inclined, post a level dip barbarian that's "Better" than a pure barbarian of the same level
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Agree with BNW. He can enlarge in one round. He can cast shield if he has two (great trick when you don't use a shield). Nice advantage, when there's time to prep.
If he is going to have one fight in a day. Minimum stat and level means he has three level 1 spells for the day and his enlarge is unlikely to last more than one fight. I have a barbarian with enlarge from oracle of battle and he does it less than half the time. Losing a round worth of movement and offense isn't always the best approach.
consider for the bargain price of
... You're assuming magic mart AND custom item magic mart at that. Not everyone plays in that campaign.
Becuase now I've got 3 natural attacks, I swift enlarge so natural attacks go up a step to 1d8/1d8/2d6 all primary and rage as a free action, +2STR size, +4STR morale, +4 STR alchemical etc etc etc
-For 1 hour a day, tops. If you walk in start fighting and walk out of a dungeon an hour later that's great. If you don't its not. The sorcerer gets 3 spells per day, 4 if the barbarian can swing a 12 cha, 1 for every fight of the day.
When you level up that one level of sorcerer lets you use most wands with no chance of failure. UMD takes a lot of levels until its reliable enough to use in combat.
now your 1 rounds worth of damage behind a barbarian who didn't cast it. you'll catch up over time sure and eventually overtake if the fight goes on long enough
You'll make it up with interest on the first mook to try to walk past or up to you.
consider for the bargain price of... You're assuming magic mart AND custom item magic mart at that. Not everyone plays in that campaign.
Becuase now I've got 3 natural attacks, I swift enlarge so natural attacks go up a step to 1d8/1d8/2d6 all primary and rage as a free action, +2STR size, +4STR morale, +4 STR alchemical etc etc etc-For 1 hour a day, tops. If you walk in start fighting and walk out of a dungeon an hour later that's great. If you don't its not. The sorcerer gets 3 spells per day, 4 if the barbarian can swing a 12 cha, 1 for every fight of the day.
When you level up that one level of sorcerer lets you use most wands with no chance of failure. UMD takes a lot of levels until its reliable enough to use in combat.
now your 1 rounds worth of damage behind a barbarian who didn't cast it. you'll catch up over time sure and eventually overtake if the fight goes on long enoughYou'll make it up with interest on the first mook to try to walk past or up to you.
sigh guess you missed the part where there no limit on how many mutagens you can brew in a given day the limit is that you can one have one prepared , you can brew as many as you like during the day. meaning you can have it available for however many dungeons your group chooses to walk into.
plus on top of that your ALSO getting level 1 extracts, oh did I forget to mention you can also get enlarge person extracts this way for additional backup. oh and bombs which are kinda nice vs swarms which a barbarian would normally have trouble with ;)
I'm quite confused what it is they your trying to argue , are you saying the level 1 dip in sorc is the best possible choice for any barbarian ? or that it better than any other possible level dip or multiclass ?
btw a GM won't walk mooks up to the big scary barbarian who is now large and menacing even mooks aren't that stupid, they go after the weak looking mageling first ;)
why not post your ultimate broketastic barbarian/sorc build and we'll go from there ;)
if your desperate for UMD , skill focus solves that at the cost of a feat not a class level.
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Far better is cleric 1 (battle cleric). Wis is generally better, then you take the growth domain to swift action grow about 4-5 rounds a day. Far better than using an actual round of combat to grow (or 2 for wand/spell). Battle cleric also gives you both Will and Fort Saves and a free feat.
Inquisitor is also good, more skills and 1/day +1 to hit for a combat. Also, 2 more levels gets you the options for solo tactics.
Dwarf Barbarian (urban) 2 / Inquis (witchhunter) 3
Str: 17 (+1 level +2 bracers)
Int: 7
Wis: 16
Dex: 14
Con: 16
Chr: 5
(feats: PA, Furious Focus, Combat Reflexes, teamwork perception feat).
Growth domain (6 day)
Attack: +11 (+1 weapon), +13 rage damage: d12+13 (3d6+15 grown, d12+16 raged, 3d6+17 grown and raged)
Saves: Ref: +3 Wil: +6 Fort: +9, +2 VS magic and poisons, +cloak
Perception: +12 (including dwarf trait)
HP: 12 + 7 + 15 + 15 = 49 (lot for level 5)
Spells are all Litany spells (generally); swift action make casters unable to defense or eliminate AOOs for friends is great.
Powerful and without most of the barbarian weaknesses (amazing saves), and with a pounce that works better than pounce. I personally love urban barbarian, if people are
Closing en mass you can get +4 to Dex, and unlike standard barbarian rage it won't kill you if you fall when in rage.
Swing a hammer, get combat reflexes, and later full attack someone 30 feet away (grow 5 feet that direction, 5 foot step, 20 reach). Solo tactics the perception feat so you can full attack in surprise rounds.
Drool between combats.