Hello everybody.
I am aware that falling damage is a topic of a lot of debate and many MANY gms houserule it severly.
The question that keeps me from doing this too is:
1) why 20d6 at 200ft? it seems too low.
Is there any real reason besides some arbitrary standart?
Hello everybody.
I am aware that falling damage is a topic of a lot of debate and many MANY gms houserule it severly.The question that keeps me from doing this too is:
1) why 20d6 at 200ft? it seems too low.Is there any real reason besides some arbitrary standart?
20d6 is a lot of damage, and past level most characters stop being normal humans anyway. They become like the legends in mythology.
20d6 also represents terminal velocity. After you get to a certain height it just won't hurt any more even if you add another few hundred feet.
20d6 -Acrobatics -yielding surface isnt all that much at all. A lvl 8 rogue with only halv decent daggers can easily deal more in a single round. A 55m/s impact should be more dangerous than a lvl8 Rogue, right?
I did quite some calculations about terminal Velocity and i dont complain THAT it caps. I am talking perspective of threat perception. worst case scenario is average 70 dmg. thats not that much. 40d6 at 400ft or something around those lines feels right for me.
So why was the damage set to exactly 20d6? was it: "meh just go with 20d6 noone falls deeper anyways without feather fall." or is there some real smart thing i dont see?
20d6 -Acrobatics -yielding surface isnt all that much at all. A lvl 8 rogue with only halv decent daggers can easily deal more in a single round. A 55m/s impact should be more dangerous than a lvl8 Rogue, right?
I did quite some calculations about terminal Velocity and i dont complain THAT it caps. I am talking perspective of threat perception. worst case scenario is average 70 dmg. thats not that much. 40d6 at 400ft or something around those lines feels right for me.
So why was the damage set to exactly 20d6? was it: "meh just go with 20d6 noone falls deeper anyways without feather fall." or is there some real smart thing i dont see?
An 8th level rogue can do that much damage, but it is not likely. Going by likelihood you need a level 11 or 12 rogue to compete with 20d6 falling damage on average. My information comes from the DPR threads.
I am aware that Npcs dont survive that sort of fall and that makes perfekt sense. You can break your neck with as much as 5ft falling on a hard surface. Heros are bigger than live but are they really bigger than gravity?
The rogue example is just to illustrate a point i wanted to make.
Since Hp are an abstract value that consist off (physical toughness+ ability to turn dangerous wound into less dangerous one(ill call it combat prowess))
How does combat prowess factor into the impact on a flat granite surface? I wouldnt know how to explain a character why he survived falling from a cloudcastle without feeling like a jackass.
Your average commoner has a d6 plus Con bonus HP. A 200 foot fall deals a minimum of 20 HP damage. This is enough to outright kill the average NPC.
Just to point out the average NPC runs between 3~9th level with the higher levels being rarer the higher you go. Generally after level 4 they have NPC levels mixed with PC levels.
Assuming 5th level and average NPC stats you are looking at 25~45 hp at most. Hey some people do survive such falls so having some NPCs that do it isn't all that surprising... but it isn't going to be common.
I am aware that Npcs dont survive that sort of fall and that makes perfekt sense. You can break your neck with as much as 5ft falling on a hard surface. Heros are bigger than live but are they really bigger than gravity?
The rogue example is just to illustrate a point i wanted to make.
Since Hp are an abstract value that consist off (physical toughness+ ability to turn dangerous wound into less dangerous one(ill call it combat prowess))
How does combat prowess factor into the impact on a flat granite surface? I wouldnt know how to explain a character why he survived falling from a cloudcastle without feeling like a jackass.
There are a lot worse surfaces to fall on than granite.
Also HP also accounts for luck -- it doesn't have to be just physical toughness and combat prowess.
Finally just because you survive doesn't mean you don't hurt -- most PC's through level 10 are going to lose half or more of their HP taking that fall if not dying.
20d6 averages out to be 70 hp.
Just this Monday the party dwarf tried a dive bomb on a dragon from 150 ft up -- he missed and after eating 15d6 damage had lost over half his HP (after allowing for his DR too), was prone at the feet of a dragon that he just tried to hit, and he was the fighter designed to take it on the chin -- everyone else in the party (with the exception of the alchemist but he was a similar design) would have died from the damage.
One of the inquisitors tried a 'simple' 60 foot drop and still ended up losing half her HP from the simple 6d6 damage she took (alright so I rolled four 6's and a 4 and a 5 but hey this happens too).
As I understand it, 1st level is the most common type of NPC according to the demographics listed in the book. Average may have been the wrong choice of word.
Well everything I've seen from NPC guides in the APs and the GMG have them as at least 2nd level.
The average farmer for example is a commoner 1/expert 1 while the farmers in one of the APs was commoner 2.
Makes sense honestly -- leaves level 1 for kids.
It's also part of the reason I feel justified in starting at level 2~3 for PCs.
I think its all ok that a npc random Joe can theoretically survive the fall from that high If ye lands on a yielding surface -d6 and somewhat lands lucky (acrobatics plus low throw)-d6 so he looks at 18 dmg if he is lucky he can survive a bit more than that and thats good too. But a Pc isnt made of metal or anything its just some dude who is mor awesome than most. I think his survivable rate should be bigger than that of a peasant to be sure but even if he is as lucky as one gets and tough as a nail his survival chance should not increase to over 50% when worst case conditions are in place and maybe 90% if he lands in water with a good dive and took the jump deliberately (if he takes the fall).
Every of my pcs should purchase some featherfall or fly item and take good care of it. Even lvl 18 monsters who can bend reality around them should fear it. Especially since there are so many easy ways to be safe against it.
But the actual question is still: where do the 20d6 come from? why not 30 or 10 or 25 or 15? Doesn anyone know that?
to clarify: i mean the exreme example of sky high, orbital reentry cloud castle dropped ba a dragon not the 200ft that are in the CRB. I am thinking everything beyond 500ft is worst case scenario (which is the time it needs to cast a standart action and save yourself)
to illustrate the scale i had in mind here are 2 examples of how i would probably house rule it.to increase the danger to level i see as ballanced.
1: add +1 dmg to every d6 rolled up to 100ft and +2 for every 10ft thereafter until terminal velocity is reached at 200ft.average of 100 if i am not mistaken and you can still avoid some of it. the fluctuation is still big but its an undeniable risk to even attempt to take that fall witout precaution. Massive damage rules apply normally.
2: rolling d6 untill 200ft is reached and d3s until 400ft is reached 110 dmg. Awesome heros still survive it most of the times other should be carefull when f##%ing with dragons or, say a Roc.
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Forgive me if this has already been mentioned (I mostly skimmed), but the CRB includes this "optional rule":
Massive Damage (Optional Rule): If you ever sustain a single attack that deals an amount of damage equal to half your total hit points (minimum 50 points of damage) or more and it doesn't kill you outright, you must make a DC 15 Fortitude save. If this saving throw fails, you die regardless of your current hit points. If you take half your total hit points or more in damage from multiple attacks, no one of which dealt more than half your total hit points (minimum 50), the massive damage rule does not apply.
That'd make it a little harder to survive the fall.
i am aware of this rule and use it at the moment. My characters have so ridiculous saves through magic, Chevalier Banner, Blessings, items and what not that the lvl 9 sorceror would have a +10 not to mention the tank who autosucceeds it unless he fumbles it.
And as it is right now there is the ludicrous possibility of only taking 18 dmg from orbital reentry (a statistical impossibility but i studied statistics a bit and know that it cant be relied upon, ever.)so hitting the ground head first for the dmg of a lucky dagger stab of a level 1 rogue. I dont like that.
Why the 20d's?
Well, I'm sure that the Xd6 fire damage would kill you before you ever even hit the ground.
not the point. Not even a little. Let it be a mile up if you like.
The point is: Sometime ago someone decided to make it 20d6. It was said thus it was core. Why 20? maximum damage of 120 to minimum damage of 20 -some for circumstance, Expected dmg is 70. 120 is something a lvl 12 warrior has and he will most likely make the dc 15 save with ease.
Do the 20d6 have some meaning? Are they ballanced to something? was it to make the bullrush less powerfull? was it just random? Are there no ancient scriptures that tell the tale of why the gods decided that a lvl 15 Human Warrior basically CANT die from hitting the ground at terminal velocity? Especially since safety measures are so cheap at hand.
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Maybe no one feels like rolling more dice than that?
I mean, presumably this is a home game*, so if you're the GM, feel free to say "That was a mile-long fall. You're dead, period."
If someone falls 300 feet, I'd probably rather roll only 20d6, or just say they're dead, or roll 20d6+30, or whatever.
Pick something you like and go with it.
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not the point. Not even a little. Let it be a mile up if you like.
The point is: Sometime ago someone decided to make it 20d6. It was said thus it was core. Why 20? maximum damage of 120 to minimum damage of 20 -some for circumstance, Expected dmg is 70. 120 is something a lvl 12 warrior has and he will most likely make the dc 15 save with ease.
Do the 20d6 have some meaning? Are they ballanced to something? was it to make the bullrush less powerfull? was it just random? Are there no ancient scriptures that tell the tale of why the gods decided that a lvl 15 Human Warrior basically CANT die from hitting the ground at terminal velocity? Especially since safety measures are so cheap at hand.
I'd say falling damage has fallen (hah!) victim to the same scaling issues that have affected direct damage spells- damage is still the same as it was in 1e, but everything has a lot more hp.
For comparison sake, in 1e average hp for a:
12th level fighter, 15 Con, 67.5 hp. (Note that default 1e 0hp=dead)
12th level wizard, 12 Con(no bonus in 1e), 28.5 hp.
20th level fighter, 18 Con, 118.5 hp. Still possible (but unlikely) to be killed outright by 20d6 damage.
20th level wizard, 16+Con(only fighter-types benefitted from more than 16 Con for hp), 58.5 hp. Better have feather fall prepared.
Note that the are normal, real-world people who have fallen great distances (miles!) and survived. It's rare but it has happened.
One thing keeps me from doing just that. If there is some reason (and i think the idea of noone wanting to roll more often is a reasonable assumption)
I am not in posession of all facts and my descision would be biased. I dislike beeing biased in that matter more than the actual rule.
Also i dont want to be a t%@# to my players (despite the fact that they made me livid with the argument that they werent regular humans and gravity doesnt apply to them) and kill them outright without taking the miniscule chance to survuive into account. And just throwing a no save-kill at them is the wrong thing to do in any circumstance.
Right now i redesign my dungeon the kill them starvation, thirst, madness and old age to show em i dont give a crap about them supposedly beeing better than regular humans.
not the point. Not even a little. Let it be a mile up if you like.
The point is: Sometime ago someone decided to make it 20d6. It was said thus it was core. Why 20? maximum damage of 120 to minimum damage of 20 -some for circumstance, Expected dmg is 70. 120 is something a lvl 12 warrior has and he will most likely make the dc 15 save with ease.
Do the 20d6 have some meaning? Are they ballanced to something? was it to make the bullrush less powerfull? was it just random? Are there no ancient scriptures that tell the tale of why the gods decided that a lvl 15 Human Warrior basically CANT die from hitting the ground at terminal velocity? Especially since safety measures are so cheap at hand.
All of the following might be an "origin myth" concerning D&D, but if it is a myth it is a myth that existed AT the time of the origin of D&D. In other words, I started playing the original D&D when it first came out and this is what was commonly understood to have happened after AD&D 1st edition came out. I can't remember where the story was first disseminated, but I think it was in an early Dragon Magazine.
The story goes like this: Gary Gygax needed to quickly write a rule about falling damage for the Players Handbook (1st ed.). He typed up that falling damage would do "1d6 per 10 feet per 10 feet fallen". No example provided, just that rule. It also set the maximum at 20d6 which was a nice round number to remember, but the MAXIMUM dice would be adjusted up or down by the surface landed on. ABOVE ALL, the rule said the DM would assign what happens to you, but he would probably just use the d6 dmg in order to give the PC some chance of survival despite not being "realistic". Off went the rule to whoever was editing the book (Mike Carr perhaps? Editing the 1st Ed. Players Handbook that came out in 1978?).
The editor got hold of it and thought the second "per 10 feet" was a typo. It wasn't. It was just a complicated way of saying you take 1d6 for falling 10', 3d6 for falling 20', 6d6 for falling 30', 10d6 for falling 40' etc. (1d6 for first 10 feet, 2d6 for the second 10 feet you fall, 3d6 for the third 10 feet you fall, 4d6 for the fourth 10 feet you fall etc.). Believing it a typo, the "extra" per 10 feet is chopped off.
That left us with an original 1st ed. D&D having the rule, 1d6 per 10' fallen, maximum of 20d6 (the adjusted up and down part was harder to remember.)
Been that way ever since.
Remember, this rule was thrown together by minimal staff/resources and during a time when the rules had things in them like "the DM will determine what happens using common sense."
cheers,
L
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not the point. Not even a little. Let it be a mile up if you like.
The point is: Sometime ago someone decided to make it 20d6. It was said thus it was core. Why 20? maximum damage of 120 to minimum damage of 20 -some for circumstance, Expected dmg is 70. 120 is something a lvl 12 warrior has and he will most likely make the dc 15 save with ease.
Do the 20d6 have some meaning? Are they ballanced to something? was it to make the bullrush less powerfull? was it just random? Are there no ancient scriptures that tell the tale of why the gods decided that a lvl 15 Human Warrior basically CANT die from hitting the ground at terminal velocity? Especially since safety measures are so cheap at hand.
All of the following might be an "origin myth" concerning D&D, but if it is a myth it is a myth that existed AT the time of the origin of D&D. In other words, I started playing the original D&D when it first came out and this is what was commonly understood to have happened after AD&D 1st edition came out. I can't remember where the story was first disseminated, but I think it was in an early Dragon Magazine.
The story goes like this: Gary Gygax needed to quickly write a rule about falling damage for the Players Handbook (1st ed.). He typed up that falling damage would do "1d6 per 10 feet per 10 feet fallen". No example provided, just that rule. It also set the maximum at 20d6 which was a nice round number to remember, but the MAXIMUM dice would be adjusted up or down by the surface landed on. ABOVE ALL, the rule said the DM would assign what happens to you, but he would probably just use the d6 dmg in order to give the PC some chance of survival despite not being "realistic". Off went the rule to whoever was editing the book (Mike Carr perhaps? Editing the 1st Ed. Players Handbook that came out in 1978?).
The editor got hold of it and thought the second "per 10 feet" was a typo. It wasn't. It was just a complicated way of saying you take 1d6 for falling 10', 3d6 for...
I heard something similar and that is definitely one of the ways it was interpreted for 2nd Edition too. I would like to point out that characters had far fewer hit points in 1st Edition than in Pathfinder or 3.5. A level 20 wizard had, at maximum, 75 hit points (average about 37). Even a fighter would have 159 maximum hit points (average about 95). 70 points of damage is significant with the way hit points used to be calculated.
I too have heard the legend of 1e which Linger42 detailed. In fact, I believe that Gary published an article in Dragon confirming that falling damage for 30 feet should be 6d6, for instance. If we assume that the 20d6 cap was for the maximum damage for an additional 10 feet then there's no cap on total damage. A 200 foot fall would do 210d6, and a 210 foot fall would do 230d6. Falling from a mile up would require expending two Hero Points.
There are two practical problems with this system. First, many DMs might have trouble calculating the correct damage. Second, very few folks really want to roll and tally 230d6. The first problem could be solved with a chart or a clever mathematical formula. The second can only be solved with computer assistance, and for some reason many tabletop RPG players violently resist computerized dice.
A slightly easier system to deal with might be to just use bigger dice. Adding up d20 rolls is a bunch of math though, so perhaps 10 damage per 10 feet fallen (or 1 per 1) after 60 feet (or whatever arbitrary number of feet please you for "terminal velocity") would be the easiest way of all.
I'm not saying that you should house rule falling damage, mind you, just that calling it 1 damage per foot fallen after a certain point would make life a lot easier. Even 20d6 can be kind of a nuisance. 6d6+140 would be a pretty nasty 200' fall, and 6d6+5280 would really discourage that reality flaunting belly flop off Cloud City that every dwarven fighter over 10th level dreams of breaking suspension of disbelief with. Of course if you had a couple of Hero Points you could still have a miraculous survival. You just wouldn't have them too often.
DMs wanting to avoid changing the relative power of the Pit spells would probably want to use something like 10d6 for 100 feet plus 1 per additional foot. 135 average damage for 10d6+100 is still a more satisfying 200 foot fall than 20d6 for about 70 damage, and folks who hop down from orbit would still end up flat.
i house ruled the most sensible thing. I told them to go get some feahter fall the next opportunity. because the moment they see that falling hurts they would do it anyways and i would have houseruled it for naught. Maybe ill devise something.
The double entendre: "Down to earth game" in context to falling damage was hilarious btw. Very much apreciated ^^