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Yeah! Cuz that's like totally the same thing!
Are you invalidating all analogies now?
The only thing that is totally the same is... the thing. Nothing else can be totally the same.
I just find it interesting that a mature, responsible adult who cares about a child and has al egally recognised duty of care would be regarded as a criminal if they hit a kid. However, the moment you produce a birth certificate you can fire up the fists.
Is that not weird to you? Where's the sense in it?
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I'm wondering, psychobabble aside, what you'd do if your daughter wandered out into traffic, or chased a ball into the street? I hope that this never happens, but there are things out there you don't get a second chance to correct your child on, or have the luxury of time for them to ponder stuff.
In more dire situations, how do you impress upon her the seriousness of things, immediately and urgently?
First, the kids are never out-of-sight when they're so young; wandering out into the street happens to kids that aren't carefully observed. My oldest is eight and I have just begun allowing her to play in the yard without my constant eye.
How to effect future change and positively influence future crises? Plan for them now, and train early.
It may sound hokey, but we sing songs and make up stories. We role play with toys and dolls. The Wiggles have a great song about crossing the street. When we worked that one with my oldest, I remember that crossing the street actually became tedious because we always had to identify everyone with us, stop at the light, look both ways, look both ways again...we had to follow the safety song before we could cross. But knowing that and realizing how beneficial the process was, my wife and I simply planned ahead and ensured we had the extra time whenever we went somewhere.
My failure to plan is not my child's fault, and I won't resort to spanking to achieve some ephemeral immediate (and temporary) change.
For uncovered situations, if she's too young to recognize and react to my feelings of immediacy, she's not placed in those situations.
Yeah! Cuz that's like totally the same thing!Are you invalidating all analogies now?
The only thing that is totally the same is... the thing. Nothing else can be totally the same.
I just find it interesting that a mature, responsible adult who cares about a child and has al egally recognised duty of care would be regarded as a criminal if they hit a kid. However, the moment you produce a birth certificate you can fire up the fists.
Is that not weird to you? Where's the sense in it?
Well, when you equate spanking to, how did you put it, "beating the snot out of" them, it doesn't.
Spanking is not beating the snot out of anyone, or "firing up the fists", so no, it's not the same thing.
Corporal punishment, as far as spanking.
Not corporal punishment as in Singapore's caning, or stockades in public square or a whipping post, which you'd think I wouldn't have to clarify to any person above a certain intellect level.
I've heard child abusers also say "I never touched her!!" too, what's your point? So locking a kid in the closet is ok as long as you don't swat their butt?
Well I hope you'd never beat your child. That's abuse.
First, the kids are never out-of-sight when they're so young; wandering out into the street happens to kids that aren't carefully observed. My oldest is eight and I have just begun allowing her to play in the yard without my constant eye.
How to effect future change and positively influence future crises? Plan for them now, and train early.
It may sound hokey, but we sing songs and make up stories. We role play with toys and dolls. The Wiggles have a great song about crossing the street. When we worked that one with my oldest, I remember that crossing the street actually became tedious because we always had to identify everyone with us, stop at the light, look both ways, look both ways again...we had to follow the safety song before we could cross. But knowing that and realizing how beneficial the process was, my wife and I simply planned ahead and ensured we had the extra time whenever we went somewhere.
My failure to plan is not my child's fault, and I won't resort to spanking to achieve some ephemeral immediate (and temporary) change.
For uncovered situations, if she's too young to recognize and react to my feelings of immediacy, she's not placed in those situations.
That's pretty cool. You believe that would work for all kids?
And here I thought the idea of spanking was to strike a child (sometimes with a stick or other weapon) with the intent to cause pain (ie. 'beating the snot out of them').
And you'd be wrong. We've already gone over that.
I guess we have different ideas of what spanking means. Do you use the word to mean 'give them ice cream'?
Nope. See my other point about certain intellect levels.
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First, the kids are never out-of-sight when they're so young; wandering out into the street happens to kids that aren't carefully observed. My oldest is eight and I have just begun allowing her to play in the yard without my constant eye.
How to effect future change and positively influence future crises? Plan for them now, and train early.
It may sound hokey, but we sing songs and make up stories. We role play with toys and dolls. The Wiggles have a great song about crossing the street. When we worked that one with my oldest, I remember that crossing the street actually became tedious because we always had to identify everyone with us, stop at the light, look both ways, look both ways again...we had to follow the safety song before we could cross. But knowing that and realizing how beneficial the process was, my wife and I simply planned ahead and ensured we had the extra time whenever we went somewhere.
My failure to plan is not my child's fault, and I won't resort to spanking to achieve some ephemeral immediate (and temporary) change.
For uncovered situations, if she's too young to recognize and react to my feelings of immediacy, she's not placed in those situations.
That's pretty cool. You believe that would work for all kids?
I'd like to think so.
Sadly, I personally know many parents who simply don't have the capacity to take the time necessary to do what my wife and I do. In the past I was quick to say they never should have had kids, if they didn't have the time for kids.
Over the years, though, I've met many a family whose lot has simply changed--parents who used to have the time, but necessary or required life-changes now have one or both of them getting up so early for work and coming home so late from work, they effectively see their kids only on days off. Stress and legitimate time constraints might then result in corporal punishment (*I'm not condoning this, just making an unqualified observation). I'm convinced that these kids can't possibly be growing up in a personal and loving family.
*I am not saying that all kids whose parents employ CP are unloved.
What my wife and I do takes time and tremendous personal sacrifice: our kids are our life.
stuff
I was in the middle of typing out another explanation of what should be obvious, but this time I made my will save.
I hope you enjoy being obtuse, and in some fashion that works out for you in life. I always encourage people to go with their talents.I will not be responding to any more of your posts on this topic.
First, the kids are never out-of-sight when they're so young; wandering out into the street happens to kids that aren't carefully observed. My oldest is eight and I have just begun allowing her to play in the yard without my constant eye.
How to effect future change and positively influence future crises? Plan for them now, and train early.
It may sound hokey, but we sing songs and make up stories. We role play with toys and dolls. The Wiggles have a great song about crossing the street. When we worked that one with my oldest, I remember that crossing the street actually became tedious because we always had to identify everyone with us, stop at the light, look both ways, look both ways again...we had to follow the safety song before we could cross. But knowing that and realizing how beneficial the process was, my wife and I simply planned ahead and ensured we had the extra time whenever we went somewhere.
My failure to plan is not my child's fault, and I won't resort to spanking to achieve some ephemeral immediate (and temporary) change.
For uncovered situations, if she's too young to recognize and react to my feelings of immediacy, she's not placed in those situations.
That's pretty cool. You believe that would work for all kids?I'd like to think so.
Sadly, I personally know many parents who simply don't have the capacity to take the time necessary to do what my wife and I do. In the past I was quick to say they never should have had kids, if they didn't have the time for kids.
Over the years, though, I've met many a family whose lot has simply changed--parents who used to have the time, but necessary or required life-changes now have one or both of them getting up so early for work and coming home so late from work, they effectively see their kids only on days off. Stress and legitimate time constraints might then result in corporal punishment (*I'm not condoning this, just making an unqualified observation). I'm...
Thank you for the great response. I don't know whether time is always a factor in why a parent would choose spanking over the pain staking but worthwhile effort you and your wife use. I am and have always been a pretty stubborn person, but spanking worked for me as a child*, I have never feared my parents, and have a large amount of respect for them. While I must admit, I do not have children of my own, I do intend to spank them, and still see nothing wrong with it, obviously not all the time for everything, but still you've made good points.
I know lots of people who have children and they have all ended up spanking their kids at some point, even after swearing never to do so, but usually only as a last straw. I guess I'll see what my children will require or respond to best, and go with it.So, while you choose not to employ such methods, do you agree that spanking in and of itself is not child abuse?
*
Ah yes gotta love Judgement for the greater good.
Lets see if I don't like you based on many factors including Religion Race Sex Sexuality Music Choice I can get in trouble depending on how far my judgement goes. When do we get to judge on those issues?
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Thank you for the great response. I don't know whether time is always a factor in why a parent would choose spanking over the pain staking but worthwhile effort you and your wife use. I am and have always been a pretty stubborn person, but spanking worked for me as a child*, I have never feared my parents, and have a large amount of respect for them. While I must admit, I do not have children of my own, I do intend to spank them, and still see nothing wrong with it, obviously not all the time for everything, but still you've made good points.
I know lots of people who have children and they have all ended up spanking their kids at some point, even after swearing never to do so, but usually only as a last straw. I guess I'll see what my children will require or respond to best, and go with it.
So, while you choose not to employ such methods, do you agree that spanking in and of itself is not child abuse?
I might be willing to admit that I believe the parents I personally know who spank their children, do not do so in a way that would constitute blatant child abuse, nor do they intend to physically or emotionally abuse their children; and they would likely be aghast at the suggestion that they are abusive.
In fact, most of the parents I know who I've actually seen spank their younger children, employ single open-hand 'swats' to the butt--and I'm not personally sure I would even consider that 'spanking', per se.
These 'swats' are employed as an attention-getter, and obviously not out of anger or frustration (as they continue on with their conversation or chore as though nothing happened); the kid stops whatever incorrect behavior he was engaged in, and continues on, also, as though nothing happened. They all appear happy and well-loved.
The next comments may incite, so read at your own risk:
If you mean (and not you, Kryzbyn, I mean second person plural you) spanking or CP to be Judge Adams-style, then you're both mentally unstable and an obvious abuser: anger management and counseling were patently designed for people like you.
If you mean a deliberate, planned event involving a determined number of hits with an implement, and the child must count-off as you beat them, then you're also mentally unstable and an obvious abuser; and I wonder, in 2011 in a First World country, that counseling will benefit you at all.
In fact, most of the parents I know who I've actually seen spank their younger children, employ single open-hand 'swats' to the butt--and I'm not personally sure I would even consider that 'spanking', per se.
These 'swats' are employed as an attention-getter, and obviously not out of anger or frustration (as they continue on with their conversation or chore as though nothing happened); the kid stops whatever incorrect behavior he was engaged in, and continues on, also, as though nothing happened. They all appear happy and well-loved.
Spanking in a nutshell.
The judge adams thing wasn't a spanking. He was beating her ass. There were also alot of comments made by both him and his wife that indicate psychological distress was also intended.
The other thing sounds more like a military school...
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That should be the first warning flag. The book is based on methods of dealing with ANIMALS.
While I agreed with the rest of your comment about how unacceptable this sort of training method is on children, I'd like to point out that that level of brutality Is In No Way Any More Acceptable When Applied To Animals.
If the Amish really abuse their mules like that, well, I'd say those particular amish people could use a good beating as well.
That is all.
It is against the law to use CP on inmates in prison. I fail to see how children should have less legal protection from violence than inmates in prison.
It is against the law to use CP on inmates in prison. I fail to see how children should have less legal protection from violence than inmates in prison.
While I agree with you on this its funny just how many rights a prisoner has that we as law abiding people don't have.
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I think this conversation has jumped the shark, but I wanted to respond to two comments I've seen repeated here that some are mistaking as analogous to spanking.
First, hitting adults I don't know and spanking my kids have not one thing to do with one another. At all. I have no moral or ethical obligation to train up a jackass at a concert that won't keep his hands off my wife, so talk of corporal punishment doesn't apply. It might be against the law to use corporal punishment against prisoner,s but then no one has any parental responsibilities to teach them AND they have passed childhood, so they probably can't be taught anything that way. There's no correlation, and continuing to pretend there is in order to pass judgment on decent people you don't know, based on how you conduct your household, is more adversarial and self-serving than anything else. I admit that's only my opinion. But trust me when I say I'm a pretty good Dad, and no one is telling me how to raise my kids.
Secondly, some are demanding proof that good kids can't be raised without spanking. Those people aren't listening, despite the good intentions of most of them. More families spank than don't or at least did a generation ago. And kids have grown up as good kids for centuries whether they were spanked or not. Ask why my little girl's card is purple every day, she'll tell you because Daddy will spank her. A decade from now, she'll just listen at school cause that's what she's always done. Please provide proof that you CAN'T raise well-adjusted kids with good character by spanking them. When you realize you can't offer that proof, you should move to a position that says "that's not right for me, but I'm not judging anyone's parenting skills".
I just find it interesting that a mature, responsible adult who cares about a child and has al egally recognised duty of care would be regarded as a criminal if they hit a kid.
Well, if i picked up a kid put them over my shoulder and hauled them off to a room and didn't let them leave for 4 hours that either kidnaping or a perfectly legal grounding, depending on whether or not they're mine.
So yes, that matters.
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I think this conversation has jumped the shark, but I wanted to respond to two comments I've seen repeated here that some are mistaking as analogous to spanking.
First, hitting adults I don't know and spanking my kids have not one thing to do with one another. At all. I have no moral or ethical obligation to train up a jackass at a concert that won't keep his hands off my wife, so talk of corporal punishment doesn't apply. It might be against the law to use corporal punishment against prisoner,s but then no one has any parental responsibilities to teach them AND they have passed childhood, so they probably can't be taught anything that way. There's no correlation, and continuing to pretend there is in order to pass judgment on decent people you don't know, based on how you conduct your household, is more adversarial and self-serving than anything else. I admit that's only my opinion. But trust me when I say I'm a pretty good Dad, and no one is telling me how to raise my kids.
Secondly, some are demanding proof that good kids can't be raised without spanking. Those people aren't listening, despite the good intentions of most of them. More families spank than don't or at least did a generation ago. And kids have grown up as good kids for centuries whether they were spanked or not. Ask why my little girl's card is purple every day, she'll tell you because Daddy will spank her. A decade from now, she'll just listen at school cause that's what she's always done. Please provide proof that you CAN'T raise well-adjusted kids with good character by spanking them. When you realize you can't offer that proof, you should move to a position that says "that's not right for me, but I'm not judging anyone's parenting skills".
Toward the first: If you recognize a child as an individual human being, then your respect for their physical person should be commensurate with your respect for the physical person of any other recognized individual human being, regardless of age, size, mental capacity, knowledge, wisdom, or genetic affiliation.
This means that if it's unacceptable to discipline your neighbor when his dog repeatedly relieves itself in your yard, then it's likewise unacceptable to take the strap to your five year old.
(*I've already made a distinction between the attention-getting, single-strike, open-handed 'swat', and it's obviously not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the preplanned, deliberate, structured, pain-inducing physical punishment, the anticipation of which is likely as damaging emotionally and psycho-developmentally as the physical correction itself. I'm talking about the immediate-action, multiple-strike, frustration-fueled thwacks I've seen toddlers get in the mall parking lot for nothing so much as being toddlers.)
Toward the second: I'm not in the group demanding any proof that spanked children rise to adulthood in better shape than un-spanked children; and I'm certain that many children are resilient and rise to adulthood as good people even when mercilessly beaten (as children)--as I've said many times in many threads, I'm no Kantian; and I don't believe in black-and-white universals.
My eight year old brings home the occasional purple marks (purple is bad in my area) on her daily summary, but she doesn't get spanked (or 'swatted', cf. my earlier remarks)--instead we sit down and discuss the hows-and-whys in order to develop a plan to preclude future purples (or yellows, which are warnings; reds are immediate call-the-parents).
Furthermore, I'd be ashamed to learn that my oldest daughter is good simply to avoid punishment. I don't expect my young children are actively contemplating virtue and ethical behavior, but I do hope that they choose to follow rules and direction because they want to be good; because they want to contribute.
A decade from now, when the two year old's 12, and the four year old's 14, and the eight year old is 18, I hope they listen in school not because they've been Pavlovian-conditioned to do so through spankings, but because they recognize the importance of their education; or at least they respect the importance of everyone else's, and determine not to undermine it with disruptive behavior.
As to offering proof that a spanker might as equally rear a good adult, and so I should, quote, move to a position that says "that's not right for me, but I'm not judging anyone's parenting skills", proof of effectiveness (of CP) does not change the ethics of the action.
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Ask why my little girl's card is purple every day, she'll tell you because Daddy will spank her. A decade from now, she'll just listen at school cause that's what she's always done. Please provide proof that you CAN'T raise well-adjusted kids with good character by spanking them. When you realize you can't offer that proof, you should move to a position that says "that's not right for me, but I'm not judging anyone's parenting skills".
O_O
You spank your child if she gets bad marks?Thats not even necessarily misbehaving. Maybe she legitimately didnt understand the material.
I'm not saying she won't be a decent human being, but bad marks hardly make her a bad child, or even necessarily reflect bad behavior.
This particular comment in the thread makes me sad. :(
I know here, corporal punishment for children is illegal but still widely practiced by some groups. I'd have to look it up but I believe its treated like assaulting an adult, under the law.
I'm not saying I actually think it *should* be illegal, but I will say that spankings because the child did poorly in school is something I strongly disagree with. My dad pulled that crap with me when I was growing up, and while I still turned out to be a functional adult, I'd be lying if I said I didnt hold it against him, and resent him for it.
In my opinion that sort of behavior from a parent is not reasonable, or acceptable.
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Well, when you study psychology, it's a known fact that the carrot is more precise than the stick. If you reward someone for doing something, THAT behaviour is what is going to be reinforced. However, if you punish someone for doing something, the results are more erratic. You get not one, but SEVERAL different reinforcements, and you can't predict which you're getting.
Personally, I live in Sweden. Corporal punishment has been classified as abuse and legally punishable since 1974. In those 37 years, the quality of children and young people has severely declined, to the point that we're now beating one another with sticks in the streets, have stopped wearing clothes beyond mangy furs, flinging poo in public everywhere, and not one person in a hundred can now speak anything resembling a language, let alone read. Beware our fate lest your laws change too!
Well, when you study psychology, it's a known fact that the carrot is more precise than the stick. If you reward someone for doing something, THAT behaviour is what is going to be reinforced. However, if you punish someone for doing something, the results are more erratic. You get not one, but SEVERAL different reinforcements, and you can't predict which you're getting.
Personally, I live in Sweden. Corporal punishment has been classified as abuse and legally punishable since 1974. In those 37 years, the quality of children and young people has severely declined, to the point that we're now beating one another with sticks in the streets, have stopped wearing clothes beyond mangy furs, flinging poo in public everywhere, and not one person in a hundred can now speak anything resembling a language, let alone read. Beware our fate lest your laws change too!
Oh my! I wanted to go up there next summer for vacation, I guess I should reconsider (of course, just kidding. I love the poo thing).
IMHO, CP with the intent of causing pain is nonsense. I did spank (like ONE tap on the butt) my elder son as a last resort, and the gesture itself is sufficient shock to get the parent all the attention needed. It's in itself the weapon of mass destruction of parenting, a threat best left looming on the horizon until all others options (persuasion, patient explanations, positive reinforcement, etc.) have failed. I felt I had to do it to correct a bad behaviour, but also that it was somewhere a failure of past efforts, not something casually done.
I think this conversation has jumped the shark, but I wanted to respond to two comments I've seen repeated here that some are mistaking as analogous to spanking.
First off, lets get this out of the way. You're a good dad. I'm not disagreeing with you on that or judging you as a person. But if you're going to advocate CP for other people to use, unless they are in your exact situation and exactly like you, you should be able to demonstrate how and why something is effective and necessary. You still haven't actually shown me anything that I can actually regard as evidence.
First, you haven't shown me why it's okay to hit kids instead of adults. You imply that something is different about children that makes it okay but you haven't actually defined what that is. Children are human beings, is there something scientific you can point to about brain development where corporal punishment is effective at a young age, but ineffective at an older age? I am unconcerned about the parents rights or responsibilities, we are only examining the child. What about children makes it okay to hit them?
Second, there are plenty examples where CP has been acceptable in the past and society has been extremely violent. I would recommend re-examining American history, we've been very violent, especially when you consider the treatment of blacks and native americans during the first 400 years after Columbus' arrival.
Since the late 80's, a some studies have been done. Recidivist juvenile delinquents have extremely high rates of having grown up receiving severe and frequent CP. PhD graduates usually report none or that it was rare.
In fact, in juvenile facilities, the most common factor between all inmates is CP. It isn't race, gender, economic status or parental education levels.
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I view the matter as one of trust. As a parent, the most precious thing in my relationship to my child is the trust that child can invest in me. To the child, I aim to be a positive influence, someone they can go to when things have f$$&ed up, someone they can talk to and ask about the things they see in the world. As they explore, I want to be a steady point they can return to, and reach from. As they mature and learn about the distrust and duplicity in human relationships, I want them to be able to talk to me without always fearing they will be hurt in return, lied to, mocked or used. When they ask me about themselves, I want to be able to tell them they are good enough and have them believe it.
All that makes any of this possible is their trust.
Now, I wrestle with my child to get clothes in place when he's more interested in putting socks on his hands. I am far from perfect. I wish I was calmer, less stressed, and had time to explore the possibilities of socks on hands. I get angry, I am firmer in my speech than I perhaps need to be. He thinks I am stupid every once in a while.
Yet in all this, I have never hit/spanked/beaten him. Nor would I, except in an utter emercency, say, kid screaming and refusing to move away from the oncoming car, I think all parents can identify with that. I hope it never comes to anything like that.
If I were to hit him, I know that ever after, our relationship would be defined by that act. He would not be able to trust me, since I would be a figure of menace rather than a force for good in his life.
Yeah, other people have different mileages. Even so, I have never doubted that corporal punishment is a bad thing that hurts more than it helps. That some people defend the practice doesn't change anything, it only makes them wrong.
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Kids are too individualistic to write many absolute rules beyond general guidelines.
First off, no kid responds well to brain damage, being starved to death, or locked in the closet and chained to the wall for six months. I don't think anyone is advocating that.
The authors of the book were on 60 minutes? and they seemed rather sanish. What they were suggesting you hit your kids with seemed incredibly unlikely to do any real physical damage. I don't know if the authors didn't convey that well in their book, or if reviewers are leaving that part out.
Now does it work? I think that very much depends on the kid in question. I'm sure it works for some kids, and I'm sure that others decide at a young age that it means parents are cruel and clueless and that either running into the woods for a night or two or keeping a sharp pointy object under your pillow is an effective response.
Should it be used? I think with very young children doing something dangerous like running in traffic or playing with matches or stuffing their little sister in the dryer a few swats might be called for. After around the age of 8 or so when you have a fully conscious and (as rational as humans are going to get) human being you generally should have other options.
Should spanking be outlawed? I don't know if I'm ok with the government making that decision for parents. We're not talking about major physical abuse being prevented here.
This particular comment in the thread makes me sad. :(
Maybe because you misunderstand me. When she has behavioral trouble at school, she gets spanked, if it's someting we've talked about and warned. Because spanking is something I can expose her to, then threaten, I can get results without having to do it.
Getting spanked for bad grades seems silly to me. Is that what you meant by marks? SPanking is only for behavioral correction, and even then, only to reinforce the negative results of low character.
As regards the challenge to prove it's okay to 'hit' kids instead of adults, I reiterate that the request smakcks of looking for an argument. My apologies if that's not accurate, but it seems very self evident to me that spanking children in the home is not remoptely the same as hitting a person out on the street. If I have to provide what ought to be self-evident, I will so I'm not remiss and live up to the challenge.
Spanking happens over time On the street, a guy in line groping my wife or letting his friends in line before me can;'t be corrected over time. He turned into a dill weed already. Also, I have no responsibility to shape him. I didn't bring him into the world and I'm not responsible for his jackassitude.
Spanking is a matter of authority I have no authority over adults. I can fire a bad employee, refuse to call a disappointing friend, quit a bad job or stop voting for a corrupt official. Not only is their leanring curve different, but our relationship is different. With kids, they have to be taught and corrected, and sometimes quickly.
Spanking is completely under my control If I hit the dill weed in line, he might hit me back. Now, to be sure, I have to be prepared to accept that outcomeif I engage him for groping my wife (and I would be). However, the aire of civilization has a different dynamic at home. The child is not going to take a swing at me. If he/she does, things will obviously go pretty poorly for them, in the sense that more damage is done to the relationship, they didn't learn anything about their behavior, or whatever. We have had some experience with that at our house, too. And to no one's surprise, the relationships and dynamic with each of the kids is loving, obedience, high character, etc. No one is perfect, but things have turned out pretty well.
So, someone said 'if [Steve] is going to advocate spanking for other parents', and I just want to be clear. The rules for spanking at my house are very specific, and I havetried to say several times I am not advocating or defending a policy for any other set of parents. Some people I know are terribly permissive parents who think spanking is barbarism and that they key to good kids is they have to be friends. I think that's the dumbest and most destructive thing I have ever heard. I think kit abdicates the harder responsibilities of training up kids. And of course, I parent as closely to what the Bible says in principle as I can. I'm not advocating that any specific person spank, or do anything as I do it. I am saying that good kids are trained up in different ways, and more kis have been spanked than not spanked and we all got here just fine. I guess if I have an agenda here at all, it's to illustrate that people should not be easily dismissive of how anyone conducts their family. High-browed criticism, in my experience, often falls under the appropriately mocked expression "Those that can't do, teach."
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Actually, I think you illustrate my whole point for me. You have a method of corporal punishment, utilized by millions, that you consider acceptible while you consider anything more extreme. So maybe that's right and it works for you. But other families may not get the same results. A tougher kid might feel a single swat is merely a price to pay for poor behavior, and he'll gladly pay it.
Also, I think the acceptance of a single swat violates your own expressed principles, if all things were equal. Can I take a single swat to get an Occutard's attention? Can I flick my players on the head when they are checking their email instead of planning their combat round? Of course not. Again, the rules and dynamic for kids are different. What's different isn't that the child can be punished physically while adults are better protected. Indeed, I can't spank every snotty rude kid I see at the fair or who won't shut up in the theater. I can only discipline my own kids. Becuase they're my kids and it's my job. It isn't the act, or their age, It is the relationship.
And by all means, if you can raise nearly-perfect kids without ever smacking them, do it. Don't spank cause it's fun or you think you have to. If you are really in that palce where a disappointed expression on your face means enough to your kid that they'll reliably fall back in line, kudos. How are things on Mount Olympus?
I spank cause it is an avenue my kids don't want to travel down. I spank becuase in life, dumb decisions have merciless consequences, but kids aren't living life yet. They can't get fired or dumped. They don't sometimes look at a lifelong friend and wish they could have that one night or that one conversation back. And we all knwo that the consequences of adult mistakes, of having low character in our weak moments, hurt far more and far longer than any mistake we got spanked for as a kid.
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Since the late 80's, some studies have been done. Recidivist juvenile delinquents have extremely high rates of having grown up receiving severe and frequent CP. PhD graduates usually report none or that it was rare.
In fact, in juvenile facilities, the most common factor between all inmates is CP. It isn't race, gender, economic status or parental education levels.
Since I work daily with juveniles imprisoned for serious offenses and adjudicated as adults, allow me some input. My responsibilities require me to review their criminal and personal histories, so I have some experience in this area.
Corporal punishment is not the most common factor tying together these teens: Arbitrary and chaotic home discipline is. Some were punished using corporal punishment; others were not.
Many do come from abusive or neglectful homes. The vast majority suffered a home life or background that failed to imprint them with a sense that "cause precedes effect".
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stuffActually, I think you illustrate my whole point for me. You have a method of corporal punishment, utilized by millions, that you consider acceptible while you consider anything more extreme. So maybe that's right and it works for you. But other families may not get the same results. A tougher kid might feel a single swat is merely a price to pay for poor behavior, and he'll gladly pay it.
Also, I think the acceptance of a single swat violates your own expressed principles, if all things were equal. Can I take a single swat to get an Occutard's attention? Can I flick my players on the head when they are checking their email instead of planning their combat round? Of course not. Again, the rules and dynamic for kids are different. What's different isn't that the child can be punished physically while adults are better protected. Indeed, I can't spank every snotty rude kid I see at the fair or who won't shut up in the theater. I can only discipline my own kids. Becuase they're my kids and it's my job. It isn't the act, or their age, It is the relationship.
And by all means, if you can raise nearly-perfect kids without ever smacking them, do it. Don't spank cause it's fun or you think you have to. If you are really in that palce where a disappointed expression on your face means enough to your kid that they'll reliably fall back in line, kudos. How are things on Mount Olympus?
I spank cause it is an avenue my kids don't want to travel down. I spank becuase in life, dumb decisions have merciless consequences, but kids aren't living life yet. They can't get fired or dumped. They don't sometimes look at a lifelong friend and wish they could have that one night or that one conversation back. And we all knwo that the consequences of adult mistakes, of having low character in our weak moments, hurt far more and far longer than any mistake we got spanked for as a kid.
I was very leery of bringing up the whole 'swat' thing several posts ago, precisely because of this: it does, 100%, violate my own precepts that if you can't do it to any adult on the street, you can't do it to your kid. It's a low index of tactile to angle-of-ascent (slippery slope, a term I'm not fond of) situation, because it opens the door to so many forms of corrective discipline that should necessarily be off-limits, and comes very close to hog-tying you as a parent.
I should also say it quite often takes a lot more than a disappointed look or a sigh; and that's indicated in an earlier response--my wife and I spend inordinate amounts of time not engaging in physical discipline.
I'm not a lawyer, but I'm keen to engage in some ethical and philosophical discussion. Just because I advocate or don't, isn't a definitive exemplar of me. I'm pretty sure Kant would have actually jay-walked to save another pedestrian's life, despite his philosophical assertions to the contrary.
I'd like some input from those who also believe it's okay to use corporeal punishment in raising their kids.
Because of very bad arthritis, I can't use my hands properly to spank, nor hold any instruments of spanking to the desired effect.
So I've developed another way of "spanking" - since what I CAN do is turn a dial.
So I've set up a device that can administer jolts of electricity through small pads. I've tested it so that the amount of pain is similar to what regular spanking with my hand or another instrument would be.
I hope you can agree that it's quite ingenious, plus it has the added effect that I can't ask them to choose the belt or branch themselves, but they CAN choose the wire and pad colours.
So, in lieu of a "proper" spanking I electrocute my kids to the same effect.
Clever, huh? :-)
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I'd like some input from those who also believe it's okay to use corporeal punishment in raising their kids.
Because of very bad arthritis, I can't use my hands properly to spank, nor hold any instruments of spanking to the desired effect.
So I've developed another way of "spanking" - since what I CAN do is turn a dial.
So I've set up a device that can administer jolts of electricity through small pads. I've tested it so that the amount of pain is similar to what regular spanking with my hand or another instrument would be.
I hope you can agree that it's quite ingenious, plus it has the added effect that I can't ask them to choose the belt or branch themselves, but they CAN choose the wire and pad colours.
So, in lieu of a "proper" spanking I electrocute my kids to the same effect.
Clever, huh? :-)
This actually brings up a good point: if the pain level could be validated and reproduced in other ways, what, for example, inherently makes electrical stimulation any different from spanking?
.There's actually a philosophical construct for this; I'll dig it out and post it later. The point being, there's not really any difference.
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This particular comment in the thread makes me sad. :(Maybe because you misunderstand me. When she has behavioral trouble at school, she gets spanked, if it's someting we've talked about and warned. Because spanking is something I can expose her to, then threaten, I can get results without having to do it.
Getting spanked for bad grades seems silly to me. Is that what you meant by marks? SPanking is only for behavioral correction, and even then, only to reinforce the negative results of low character.
Ah. Yes. I misunderstood you. I got hit when I got low grades. Or when my essay wasn't up to his standards (and he'd often tear it up and make me start over from scratch, not allowing me to sleep until it was done to his satisfaction), before it got marked. It sounded like the same situation, and I wouldn't want any kid to have to go through that crap.
As regards the challenge to prove it's okay to 'hit' kids instead of adults, I reiterate that the request smacks of looking for an argument. My apologies if that's not accurate
You misunderstood me if you thought I was another person challenging you over it. I was saying that "Where I live, I'm pretty sure that legally it's considered the same as assaulting an adult, whether that should be the case or not."
In your example of a dill-weed who harasses or gropes your wife? I would say you're well justified on laying him out on the floor and breaking a few bones.
As for the example of the kid swinging back? I dont think I ever did that, but I do recall that the day I stopped getting hit by my parents for any reason (whether I misbehaved or not) was the day that I (at around 13 or so) caught my mother's hand, and told her if she attacked me again, I would show her the same courtesy. After that we got along a little better.
I now mostly get along with both my parents, for the record, but I remember the things they did wrong when I was a child, why I moved out on my own in the middle of highschool, and I will never forget these things, and I intend to take the time to consider if that sort of discipline is really called for with my own children, instead of the "Well it's what my father would have done" that I got from my own parents.
Some people I know are terribly permissive parents who think spanking is barbarism and that they key to good kids is they have to be friends. I think that's the dumbest and most destructive thing I have ever heard.
You know? I agree with you here. Simply being the child's buddy isn't going to teach them morals, or philosophy, or what matters in life. Sometimes you need to discipline a child, and in some cases (running out into traffic, etc) I can understand why spanking is needed. I'm not saying all corporal punishment is bad, I'm just saying that it's important to take care and make sure you dont cross the line between corporal punishment and abuse, because odds are, nobody is going to be there right before you take a swing at the kid to tell you "Woah now, you're about to take this too far."
I guess if I have an agenda here at all, it's to illustrate that people should not be easily dismissive of how anyone conducts their family. High-browed criticism, in my experience, often falls under the appropriately mocked expression "Those that can't do, teach."
Fair Enough.
I spank cause it is an avenue my kids don't want to travel down. I spank because in life, dumb decisions have merciless consequences, but kids aren't living life yet. They can't get fired or dumped. They don't sometimes look at a lifelong friend and wish they could have that one night or that one conversation back. And we all know that the consequences of adult mistakes, of having low character in our weak moments, hurt far more and far longer than any mistake we got spanked for as a kid.
That's very true, and as I said, I dont necessarily disagree with all corporal punishment; and I think that childhood *Should* be life with training wheels on. Its the time to teach them right and wrong, teach them about self control, self-discipline, morals, respect, and honor, as well as teaching them what sort of crap they can expect the world to throw at them, while still kept in a safe environment. But you need to take care that you don't take corporal punishment to the extent that they resent it because you're being unreasonable, or because you took it too far; or there could be serious consequences. Maybe your kid resents you for it a bit, and every once in a while they tell you (once they're an adult) "You know, I get that you tried, but man, you really screwed up as a parent, and if you had just listened and talked rationally instead of resorting to violence..." Maybe they disown you completely. Or maybe you go off the deep end and you lose the kid, hopefully because Children's Aid took them away before you put them in the hospital, or worse.
I haven't seen you discipline your child. From your followup, it sounds like you're well within the bounds of what is reasonable. But not everyone plays within the "what's reasonable bounds". My parents never seriously hurt me, but I often got punished when I didn't deserve it, and that's never been something I took well. I know other people who ended up with dark purple bruises from where their dad punched them in the torso a bunch of times 'because they mouthed off', or got pulled down the stairs by the hair because they decided they didn't believe in their parent's new religion (the mother had become a Jehovah's witness), decided they didn't want to go to "Kingdom Hall" (JW Church), and had the audacity to ask why they couldn't go to their old catholic church instead.
Can I take a single swat to get an Occutard's attention? Can I flick my players on the head when they are checking their email instead of planning their combat round?
Hmm. Well, when I was in highschool, I found throwing dice at the players when they get distracted mid-combat got their attention, but then I had to hunt down the dice afterward. Nowadays I just say "no internet access while my game is running."
I have to object to the term "Occutard" though. While I don't think their movement is going to change anything useful directly, they're bringing alot of attention to many of the things wrong with the governments in this continent. With enough "Occupy X" people protesting, eventually someone is going to have to start taking these concerns seriously. I know when I email my Member of Parliament (not a clue what that works out to in the american system, but I believe its a more local rank than senator; they're in the federal government, but there are like 5 in my particular city, divided by region) if its not towing their party line, I'm completely ignored, and I dont even get a response. I acknowledge that our government (and your government) are not representing the interests of their people.
Do I think the Occupy X groups have a good approach? Not really, but I dont have any suggestions for an alternate approach that would be any more effective. I think its a better approach than protests I've seen in the past.
~DH
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I'd like some input from those who also believe it's okay to use corporeal punishment in raising their kids.
Because of very bad arthritis, I can't use my hands properly to spank, nor hold any instruments of spanking to the desired effect.
So I've developed another way of "spanking" - since what I CAN do is turn a dial.
So I've set up a device that can administer jolts of electricity through small pads. I've tested it so that the amount of pain is similar to what regular spanking with my hand or another instrument would be.
I hope you can agree that it's quite ingenious, plus it has the added effect that I can't ask them to choose the belt or branch themselves, but they CAN choose the wire and pad colours.
So, in lieu of a "proper" spanking I electrocute my kids to the same effect.
Clever, huh? :-)
As for my thoughts on this: I'm not seeing a big problem so long as nobody turns up the power, etc.
And as I mentioned in the post right before this; just be careful not to take it to far, because after the fact, its not something you can take back.
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I'd like some input from those who also believe it's okay to use corporeal punishment in raising their kids.
I prefer incorporeal punishment. Sicking a ghost on the kids really scares them into going straight.
I'd like some input from those who also believe it's okay to use corporeal punishment in raising their kids.I prefer incorporeal punishment. Sicking a ghost on the kids really scares them into going straight.
Corporeal: Of, relating to, or characteristic of the body.
Corporal: 2. an obsolete word for corporeal;-)
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I'd like some input from those who also believe it's okay to use corporeal punishment in raising their kids.I prefer incorporeal punishment. Sicking a ghost on the kids really scares them into going straight.
I believe in capital punishment. No repeat offenders!
Oh, wait, that's why this thread exists.
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Corporeal: Of, relating to, or characteristic of the body.
Corporal: 2. an obsolete word for corporeal;-)
Corporeal: Of, relating to, or characteristic of the physical body [as opposed to the soul].
Corporal:1. Of the human body; bodily
2. Zoology: Of the body proper [as opposed to the head]
3. Personal [as possessions]
4. An obsolete word for corporeal [when used in the sense above].
;P
I'm a big fan of incorporeal punishment under Kirth's use of the term.
DH, I think your experiences in some way mirror mine, which might explain why I am pretty strict with my kids and more prone to lecture than to spank. Having said that, we both recognize that parenting isn't easy and imperfect people will raise imperfect kids imperfectly. This does not excuse people going off the handle.
FInally, I use the term Occutard to refer to insolently ignorant types who latch on to the 'movement'. While there is no small amount of bitterness among conservatives for the false assertions made about Tea PArty events compared to the a priori free credibility OWS was presented, there are, in basic principle, statements by the movement I agree with and feel can be well defended. But to me, the unethical conncetion between government and the corporate world should be about real-world examples (Solyndra, Goldman-Sachs), and not about ephemeral rich people donating money through corporations to shape the economic environment they need to compete.
For anyone who does not intuitively understand what I mean when I say 'Occutard', my apologies. I have felt these last moenths that the interviews and crime blotters ahve separated the Occutards from the minority contributing protestors pretty well.
FInally, I use the term Occutard to refer to insolently ignorant types who latch on to the 'movement'. While there is no small amount of bitterness among conservatives for the false assertions made about Tea PArty events compared to the a priori free credibility OWS was presented
Have you heard of Fox news? They're now the largest cable news channel, typically with double the ratings of their nearest competitor and around 40% of the market share. They tend to praise the Tea Party and look down on OWS. While alone, they aren't the majority, even if all other media did as you say, that makes it only a 60/40 split, but it's far from a free pass for OWS.
Perhaps in the last century, the media was dominated by liberals, but since 2003 (when Fox saw a 300% increase in viewership) that can longer be said to be true. You can't claim that the biggest player in town is the oppressed little guy.
Perhaps in the last century, the media was dominated by liberals, but since 2003 (when Fox saw a 300% increase in viewership) that can longer be said to be true. You can't claim that the biggest player in town is the oppressed little guy.
Sure you can. All you need is a platform to speak on and a complete disregard for the facts.
Now where would fox news get either of those.
Perhaps in the last century, the media was dominated by liberals, but since 2003 (when Fox saw a 300% increase in viewership) that can longer be said to be true. You can't claim that the biggest player in town is the oppressed little guy.Sure you can. All you need is a platform to speak on and a complete disregard for the facts.
Now where would fox news get either of those.
Actually, you'd consider quantity in addition to quality. Sure, Fox News beats out combined opponents in viewership, but that doesn't mean millions aren't getting their information from the NYT, the other cable channels, etc. Liberal rag blogs outnumber conservative analogs. And almost without exception, OWS was glossed as our own Arab SPring, among other things, with little regard for its organized astroturf roots. Are you going to tell me you didn't hear about Tea Party racists and didn't have associates repeating the mantra sans evidence of the claim?
As far as complete disregard for the facts, the number of examples of the center-left media massaging or ignoring material facts is legion. Got one from Fox News? Not saying they aren't there. I am just saying it's very en vogue to trash the network without knowing of any examples. So..I'lltake authentic examples, but I've played this game a few times, and never without the offering being really lame.
Not that that has anything to do with corporal punishment.
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As far as complete disregard for the facts, the number of examples of the center-left media massaging or ignoring material facts is legion. Got one from Fox News? Not saying they aren't there. I am just saying it's very en vogue to trash the network without knowing of any examples. So..I'lltake authentic examples, but I've played this game a few times, and never without the offering being really lame.
Dude, there's a whole documentary about how Fox News distorts the truth.
And while it's a comedy show, The Daily Show often points out the misinformation that comes out of Fox News. Seriously, take off the blinders. :-)
And almost without exception, OWS was glossed as our own Arab SPring, among other things, with little regard for its organized astroturf roots.
Speaking of things you keep hearing but aren't proved... source?
Got one from Fox News?
The threat of a democratic congress with ominous clouds and lightning bolts comming out of the sky over the capitol.
Their support of the birther movement
Is A VOTE FOR OBAMA A VOTE FOR THE DEATH OF ISRAEL! find out why joe the plumber thinks that A VOTE FOR OBAMA IS A VOTE FOR THE DEATH OF ISRAEL!
Death panels!
We have no idea why these wallstreet people are protesting. If only there were some way we could walk across the street and ask them.
Mismatching footage of a rally people actually went to with a story about a much smaller anti health care rally
Any time a republican is involved in a sex scandal they'll "accidentally" ]replace his R with a D.
"Hey, perhaps the millionaire shouldn't have a lower tax rate than his secretary" = CLASS WAR FARE!
"Perhaps we should return to pre regan economics"= Communism!
This is off the top of my head.
We don't know how the tides work!
Glenn Beck. Need more be said? I really don't think that john Soros is going to use the girlscouts in a satanic ritual in a crop circle to bring about the end of days, but its on a blackboard! It must be true.
Glenn Beck. Need more be said?
Yeah, because the stock answer is that "Beck and O'Reilly are entertainment shows, not news!" Which means, essentially, that they pretend to be news but actually just present lies and made-up statistics.