RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32
|
I am sure some 3PP has already jumped on this, but I was having a sleepless night and the idea of giving counterspelling more love kept rolling around in my head.
To be honest, I have never seen counterspelling done in a game. I haven't played too many PCs that could do counterspelling well, and I honestly haven't played with too many people who play with more advanced tactics. Maybe it is done more often outside of my games, but I just don't see have any love.
I am not really surprised seeing as there are a total of two feats in the Pathfinder rule books (CRB, APG, UM, and UC,) that make it easier. Improved Counterspell, which lets you counterspell with a spell of the same school, and another one I can't find right now that gives bonuses to spellcraft to identify the spell and on dispel checks.
So what other feats can we create to help make counterspelling more fun and viable?
How about making counterspelling an immediate action?
Immediate Counterspell
Requires: Improved Counterspell, Quickened Spell
You may counterspell as an immediate action with a quickened spell. This counts as your one quickened spell per turn, thus on your following turn you may not use a quickened spell. You still need to identify the spell being cast normally, but at a -2 penalty.
Or we can add a bit more oomph to counterspelling by having other effects.
Harmful Counterspell
Requires: Improved Counterspell, Caster level 5
When you succeed on a counterspell you deal damage to the target caster equal to the spell level of the spell used to counterspell.
Overwhelming Counterspell
Requires: Improved Counterspell, Harmful Counterspell, Caster level 9
When you successfully counterspell, roll an opposed casterlevel check against the the target caster you just counterspelled. If you succeed, your spell affects them as if you casted it normally. If you fail, no additional effects happen. You cannot use Immediate Counterspell or Harmful Counterspell with this feat. Dispel Magic and Greater Dispel Magic do not work with this feat.
What are your thoughts?
I also have rarely seen counterspelling in games. If there were enough enemies that cast spells, then counterspelling might be more useful. But I, like you, don't know what happens in other people's games.
I like your general idea (to make counterspelling more useful and to increase its presence in the game).
I seem to recall a feat (from 3.5e maybe) that allowed the caster to counterspell with any spell of the same school. This seems like a rather big improvement. I mean, if you want to try to stop some enemy caster and don't know any of the spells he has, you're out of luck unless you happen to have a bunch of dispel magic spells handy.
I think that making a counterspell do more (like you suggest with the ability to cause damage) might be one good way to improve the ability. I think making it easier to do might be helpful too.
Maybe an ability that allows a caster to use a spell of a higher level than the spell he's trying to counterspell would be handy. Sure, you're burning up a potentially useful spell, and it might feel out of balance because you're out a higher-level spell, but, if it meant you could use any of your spells to try to take out a lower-level one, it might be worth it to you.
Also, being able to use your counterspelling acumen to also stop things like spell-like abilities or supernatural abilities could be very cool. How amazing would it be to stop a fiend or dragon in its tracks by being able to thwart it with some kind of counterspell-like power?
Dave
|
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32
|
Pathfinder also has Improved Counterspell, which lets you use a spell of the same school. You may use a higher level spell with that feat.
I also thought about counterspelling spell-like abilities, but forgot to post about that here. It would be great to be able to do that.
Are there any balance issues with the feats I created?
I played a druid in 3.5 that used Improved Counterspell. We got ambushed by a bunch of rakshasa one time, and I got to cancel out fireballs and lightning bolts by burning through my flamestrikes. Since I was also the primary healer, this was actually a better use of my resources that burning through a couple wands of cure light wounds or heal spells.
I agree there should be more counterspelling options. Feats that let you counter spell-like effects would be really useful, especially since lots of monsters use spell-like effects, like pretty much all outsiders.
Counterspeller might also work as a really good archetype for sorcerers, wizards, maybe even witches and clerics, oracles and druids.
COUNTERSPELLER ARCHETYPE for Wizards.
Improved Counterspell: You gain Improved Counterspell as a bonus feat.
This replaces the standard wizard’s Scribe Scroll feat at 1st level.
Counterspelling Talents (Su): At 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th level, you gain one of the following abilities.
This replaces the standard wizard’s bonus feats at 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th levels.
Counter Magic Item: You gain the ability to counter spell-completion and spell-activation magic items as if they were spells, using the magic item’s equivalent spell level and caster level.
Counter Spell-like Effect: You gain the ability to counter spell-like abilities as if they were spells, using the spell-like effect‘s equivalent spell level and caster level.
Disrupt Magic Item: When you use your counterspell ability to counter a magic item, the user of the item must make a Will Save with a DC of 10 + ½ your wizard level + your Intelligence modifier or lose the ability to activate the item for 1d4 rounds. You must have the Counter Magic Item talent before selecting this talent.
Disruptive Counterspelling: When you counterspell a spell, the spellcaster of that spell must make a Will Save with a DC of 10 + ½ your wizard level + your Intelligence modifier or lose the ability to cast spells or use spell-like abilities for 1 round. You must have the Retributive Counterspelling talent before selecting this talent.
Greater Counterspelling: When you use the Improved Counterspell feat to counterspell, you may use a spell of the same school of the target spell’s level.
Necrotic Counterspelling: When you counterspell a spell, the spellcaster of that spell gains a temporary negative level for 1 hour per level of the spell you countered. You must have the Retributive Counterspelling talent before selecting this talent.
Potent Counterspelling: You add your Intelligence modifier to your caster level checks made to counterspell.
Resist Counterspelling: If an opponent attempts to counterspell one of your spells using dispel magic, greater dispel magic, or a similar method, you increase the DC of the caster level check to dispel your spell by an amount equal to your Intelligence modifier (minimum +1). If an opponent attempts to counter one of your spells using the Improved Counterspell feat, you increase the level of the spell slot required to counterspell your spell by an amount equal to half of your Intelligence modifier (minimum 1 spell level).
Retributive Counterspelling: When you counterspell a spell, the spellcaster of that spell takes 1d6 points of damage per level of the spell you counterspelled.
Sudden Counterspelling: You gain the ability to use the Improved Counterspell feat or use dispel magic to counterspell as an immediate action without having to ready an action to counter spell as normal.
I think that is a good start, but why make it an archetype for wizards? Why not make it a school? The counterspell school sounds pretty neat. I will have to look into this further, as I haven't yet tried to create a school of magic.
This might fit better as a sorcerer archetype, honestly
In 3.5 there is a feat that allows a divine spell caster to spend a turn undead use to counterspell as an immediate action. Memorize lots of dispel magic, and take the inquistion domain which gives a +4 bonus to all dispelling checks.
One of the archetypes for The Secrets of Tactical Archetypes, the Mechanist gunslinger archetype, can do an immediate action counter-spell. With a bullet to the face. It's very expensive though.
One thing to keep in mind is that the Counterspell subschool gives this ability at level 6, and even then for a very restricted number of times per day. Maxes out at 4 times per day. This is a powerful ability, so should be pretty expensive.
|
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32
|
Immediate Counterspell isn't much help really. Blowing a spell level 4 levels higher than it really is to counterspell? Yeah, that'll get used >.>
If Immediate Counterspell simply allowed you to counterspell as an immediate action (keep in mind it costs a feat and burns your swift action in the following round) then it would see some use. There are a LOT of mages who wouldn't take it, but there are a fair number (I'd estimate perhaps 20%ish) who would.
For people horrified of effective feats that actually change gameplay, you could specify Immediate Counterspell doesn't work with Dispel Magic.
That is a good suggestion. I had forgotten that quicken spell increased the spell level by 4.
|
|
Ooh, I've got one!
Metamagic Counterspell
Requires: Improved Counterspell, any metamagic feat
You may use metamagically enhanced spells to counter a spell of the same school as though their spell level was that of which the metamagic feat applied to it akes it take up.
Example: A spell enhanced by Quicken Spell takes up a spell slot four levels higher. With this feat, a Quickened Magic Missile could be used as though it were a 5th-level spell for purposes of countering evocation spells. If you prepare your spells, the metamagic feat(s) must already be applied to the prepared spell in question, just as if you were casting the spell normally.
I admit, this works better for spontaneous casters, who could therefore ready an action to counterspell and then counter a tactical nuke with a cantrip. Especially if you're willing to take a variety of metamagic feats, meaning you could mix and match feats and get any spell level you needed added to a 0- or 1-level spell. I can smell the cheese potential here, but counterspelling is so underused I'm not sure how worried to be about it.
|
|
Okay, here's another idea I had.
Countershock
Requires: Caster level 1st, Con 13
Whenever you counter a spell, the spell's caster takes force damage equal to the level of the spell plus your Con modifier.
More people might look at counterspelling as a valid tactic if it were possible to actually kill someone with it?
|
|
I was thinking "Concentration check = Con modifier". Plus, Con seems like such an underused stat-- everybody wants it, but nobody does anything with it (except barbarians). Maybe a number of d6 equal to the spell level, like the Arcane Blast feat?
That is a good point about readying a spell, though.
There's already a feat in UC that does damage when you dispel. Or maybe UM.
Also, Con hasn't been related to Concentration checks for 3 years now :)
And apparently it doesn't do damage, but something much worse.
There should be some fun and interesting carrier effects or options added to counterspelling. Counterspelling is usually kind of passive, so when it is done, and done successfully, there should be something else happening. Successfully counterspelling is basically saying "it could be worse." Kind of meh. Adding some spice makes it a more attractive option.
|
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32
|
There should be some fun and interesting carrier effects or options added to counterspelling. Counterspelling is usually kind of passive, so when it is done, and done successfully, there should be something else happening. Successfully counterspelling is basically saying "it could be worse." Kind of meh. Adding some spice makes it a more attractive option.
This is the point of what I want to do. Provide additional effects and spice to make the option more attractive.
I've never seen counterspelling used, but how I would probably do it:
Make counterspelling an immediate action, not a readied action. You don't have to use the same spell, or a spell of the same school, to counter spell. You do expend a spell slot of the same level or higher as the spell you want to counter. (So countering a fireball uses a 3rd level spell slot of yours).
After spending the required spell slot, make opposed caster level checks. If you spent a spell slot higher then necessary to counterspell, add the difference between the two to your caster level check. (If you spent a 5th level slot to counter a fireball, you add 2 to your caster level check because fireball is only a 3rd level spell.)
You don't have to have the same spell memorized, your just using raw magical energy to disrupt the other spell (represented by the spent spell slot), so your more likely to be able to counter the spell. Even slot you spend counterspelling is one less you can use offensively.
|
My thoughts on counterspelling, from quite a while back...
Alternate Class Feature for Wizards specialized in Abjuration
Abjurant Counterspell
You can counterspell another spell with any prepared arcane Abjuration spell of equal or higher level, regardless of the school of spell being countered. You still need to make a Spellcraft check to identify the spell you wish to counter. To develop this feature, you must use your 1st level Feat choice to learn the Improved Counterspell feat, and you do not gain the Arcane Bond class feature, or the Scribe Scroll bonus feat (you can purchase the Scribe Scroll feat normally, although a non-Human will have to wait until 3rd level before being able to do so).
.
And some Feats;
Absorptive Counterspell
Prerequisites: Improved Counterspell
Benefits: When you successfully counter another spell, you have a 50% chance of drawing in sufficient energies to replenish the spell (or slot) you used to counter the spell. This percentage cannot be increased by any means. If you are using a higher level spell to counter a lower-level spell, the chance of replenishment is reduced by 10% per level of difference.
Example: If you use dispel magic to counterspell a casting of glitterdust, you only have a 40% chance of retaining your dispel magic spell (or slot) if successful.
.
Reflective Counterspell
Prerequisites: Improved Counterspell, Absorptive Counterspell, must be a Wizard specialized in Abjuration
Benefits: If you successfully counter a spell, you can choose *not* to absorb the energies to replenish your own expended spell slot (per Absorptive Counterspell), and to instead attempt to turn the spell back as if you had cast it yourself. If the spell has a single target, it must be the caster, but you can turn an area spell back as you see fit, so long as the caster is within the area affected. There is a 50% chance of this being successful, with a bonus of 10% for every level by which the spell you used to counter the incoming spell overpowered it.
Example: An Abjurer uses dispel magic to counter an enemy Sorcerers scorching ray. He has a 60% chance of reflecting the spell (the entire spell, he cannot divide up the rays among separate targets) back upon the Sorcerer. If he instead counterspelled a fireball, he would be able to place it as he wished, so long as the Sorcerer were within it's area of effect.
.
Countermagic
Prerequisites: Improved Counterspell, must be a Wizard specialized in Abjuration
Benefits: You can counterspell a spell-like ability. The Spellcraft DC to identify a spell-like ability that duplicates a pre-existing spell is +5. For a spell-like ability that does not have a spell equivalent, such as a White Dragons Freezing Fog ability, the difficulty to identify it is +10, and you cannot counter it unless you have an ability such as Abjurant Counterspell or a spell such as dispel magic or greater dispel magic (of the appropriate level!) prepared that specifically can be used to counter any spell.
|
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32
|
My thoughts on counterspelling, from quite a while back...
Alternate Class Feature for Wizards specialized in Abjuration
Abjurant Counterspell
You can counterspell another spell with any prepared arcane Abjuration spell of equal or higher level, regardless of the school of spell being countered. You still need to make a Spellcraft check to identify the spell you wish to counter. To develop this feature, you must use your 1st level Feat choice to learn the Improved Counterspell feat, and you do not gain the Arcane Bond class feature, or the Scribe Scroll bonus feat (you can purchase the Scribe Scroll feat normally, although a non-Human will have to wait until 3rd level before being able to do so)..
And some Feats;
Absorptive Counterspell
Prerequisites: Improved Counterspell
Benefits: When you successfully counter another spell, you have a 50% chance of drawing in sufficient energies to replenish the spell (or slot) you used to counter the spell. This percentage cannot be increased by any means. If you are using a higher level spell to counter a lower-level spell, the chance of replenishment is reduced by 10% per level of difference.Example: If you use dispel magic to counterspell a casting of glitterdust, you only have a 40% chance of retaining your dispel magic spell (or slot) if successful.
.
Reflective Counterspell
Prerequisites: Improved Counterspell, Absorptive Counterspell, must be a Wizard specialized in Abjuration
Benefits: If you successfully counter a spell, you can choose *not* to absorb the energies to replenish your own expended spell slot (per Absorptive Counterspell), and to instead attempt to turn the spell back as if you had cast it yourself. If the spell has a single target, it must be the caster, but you can turn an area spell back as you see fit, so long as the caster is within the area affected. There is a 50% chance of this being successful, with a bonus of 10% for every...
Excellent! This is the type of thing I was looking for!
|
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32
|
Immediate Counterspell
Requires: Improved Counterspell, Quickened Spell
You may counterspell as an immediate action. You still need to identify the spell being cast normally, but at a -2 penalty.
Harmful Counterspell
Requires:] Improved Counterspell, Caster level 5
When you succeed on a counterspell you deal damage to the target caster equal to 1d6/spell level of the spell used to counterspell.
Spell-like Counterspell
Requires: Improved Counterspell, Caster level 11
You may counterspell spell-like abilities as if they were spells cast normally. You may use any feats or class features that affect counterspelling normally.
I made some adjustments and created the last feat.
Are they balanced right? Are the requirements too much or too little? Is the wording alright? (I am on some medication right now, and I don't trust my typing.)
Arcane Countermastery (feat)
You have refined your magical theory and practice to unravel enemy spells with precision and flexibility.
Prerequisites: Improved Counterspell, Spellcraft 5 ranks, Knowledge (arcana) 5 ranks
Benefit: You gain an arcane focus pool equal to half your caster level (minimum 1). When an enemy casts a spell, you may expend one use of this pool and a spell slot at least one level higher than the spell being cast (minimum 3rd-level slot) to attempt a counterspell as an immediate action. This functions as the arcanist's counterspell exploit. You must identify the spell being cast with a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell level). If the check succeeds, you may attempt to counter the spell by making a dispel check as if using dispel magic (1d20 + your caster level against DC 11 + the enemy caster's caster level). Unlike Improved Counterspell, this feat does not require the expended spell to be of the same school as the spell being countered.
Each additional use of this ability during the same encounter costs 1 additional point from your arcane focus pool (the first use costs 1 point, the second costs 2 points, the third costs 3 points, and so on).
Your arcane focus pool refreshes after 8 hours of rest.
Special: You cannot use this feat with spell trigger or spell completion items. Using this feat requires an immediate action, which also uses your swift action on your next turn.
Normal: Without this feat, counterspelling requires a readied action and you can only counter a spell with the same spell or (with Improved Counterspell) with a spell of the same school that is one or more spell levels higher.