| Brakiri |
Hi folks,
i was browsing the SM II choices, and i noticed that there isn't even one decent choice for combat among them.
The eagle from SM I seems to be the better choice every time. Even more if you keep in mind that you can summon 1d3 eagles with a SM II spell.
Most of the SM II choices have a melee score of 2 or 3 and only one attack, while the eagle also has a melee score of 3 but 3 attacks.
The only half-decent choice seems to be an earth elemental.
Is that an oversight or did paizo this on purpose?
| hogarth |
Mud and ice elementals (from Bestiary 2) also have their charms -- mud elementals can entangle and ice elementals can stagger with their slam attacks.
I agree that the non-elemental choices are pretty slim pickings. But then again, I'd say the same thing for Summon Monster I (only the eagle is worthwhile, unless you think that the riding dog is supposed to be on the SM I list).
| Remco Sommeling |
Don't forget that the eagle has only reach 0 ft so it will often provoke attacks of oppurtunity when attacking foes that are larger than tiny size and are useless in providing or getting flanking positions. Augment summoning will increase damage to 1d4+2(x3), but not increase the AB at all since it is dependent on weapon finesse.
Earth elemental is pretty good in that regard, if you have augment summoning you can summon a flanking elemental and attack with a +10 modifier for 1d6+11 damage on a Power Attack, not bad at all for a 2nd level spell, still a bit squishy but with 17 AC and 17 hp and crit/sneak/flank immunity quite likely to stick around for more than a single attack aimed at them. Also darkvision and tremor sense are quite useful. The other elementals have their uses in specific situations.
Giant Frog is awesome since the grab ability has been revised, it has a decent chance to hit with it's tongue touch attack to attempt a grab on medium size or smaller creatures and can provide flanking, AoO from 15 ft distance.
Giant spiders have a neat web ability which can be used at creatures up to large size, a touch attack with a +5 AB or spend a standard action trying to break free from entanglement with a DC of 16 or 18 if you got augment summoning. They also have a fair ammount of hp and poison, though low ac and non-intelligent.
| Abraham spalding |
Lighting Elemental -- combat maneuvers on metal using foes (+18 on trip attempts), also has electrical damage.
Ice elemental can stagger with successful hits (with a save on each hit and the DC increases with augment summoning).
Giant Spider has the web ability.
Lemure's have nice immunities, early DR, see in darkness, and two attacks.
Granted none of these are going to lay planets low, but for an additional combatant at level 3 I think you might be expecting a bit much.
| hogarth |
Don't forget that the eagle has only reach 0 ft so it will often provoke attacks of oppurtunity when attacking foes that are larger than tiny size and are useless in providing or getting flanking positions.
I think you're confusing eagles and hawks. Eagles are size Small and have the normal 5' reach.
I neglected to mention that lightning elementals are not bad against metal-equipped enemies, as noted by Abraham above.
| Remco Sommeling |
Remco Sommeling wrote:Don't forget that the eagle has only reach 0 ft so it will often provoke attacks of oppurtunity when attacking foes that are larger than tiny size and are useless in providing or getting flanking positions.I think you're confusing eagles and hawks. Eagles are size Small and have the normal 5' reach.
I neglected to mention that lightning elementals are not bad against metal-equipped enemies, as noted by Abraham above.
I know eagles are small, but according to bestiary they have reach 0.
| hogarth |
| Remco Sommeling |
Remco Sommeling wrote:
I know eagles are small, but according to bestiary they have reach 0.Huh. In the PRD, it doesn't mention anything about 0' reach. Maybe it was errata'ed?
No errata, so either eagles are supposed to be tiny really or small with a space and reach of 2 1/2 ft and reach 0 if I'd were to believe it was not a mistake.
probably just a mistake, though I have to say the summon lists don't play nicely with the PF bestiary, eagle is too powerful in comparison to other options, some misnamed summon options and the like don't help. From a balance point of view the 0 reach would have made sense. oh well.. I dont really use summons as written anyway.
jjaamm
|
Don't forget that the eagle has only reach 0 ft so it will often provoke attacks of oppurtunity when attacking foes that are larger than tiny size and are useless in providing or getting flanking positions. Augment summoning will increase damage to 1d4+2(x3), but not increase the AB at all since it is dependent on weapon finesse.
Earth elemental is pretty good in that regard, if you have augment summoning you can summon a flanking elemental and attack with a +10 modifier for 1d6+11 damage on a Power Attack, not bad at all for a 2nd level spell, still a bit squishy but with 17 AC and 17 hp and crit/sneak/flank immunity quite likely to stick around for more than a single attack aimed at them. Also darkvision and tremor sense are quite useful. The other elementals have their uses in specific situations.
Giant Frog is awesome since the grab ability has been revised, it has a decent chance to hit with it's tongue touch attack to attempt a grab on medium size or smaller creatures and can provide flanking, AoO from 15 ft distance.
Giant spiders have a neat web ability which can be used at creatures up to large size, a touch attack with a +5 AB or spend a standard action trying to break free from entanglement with a DC of 16 or 18 if you got augment summoning. They also have a fair ammount of hp and poison, though low ac and non-intelligent.
small thing-sm earth is +9 due to power attack, but yes I love them.
giant frog- just used one to tounge grab an ally and pull out of spider swarm filled pit. yea, 5' at time.| n00bxqb |
Lighting Elemental -- combat maneuvers on metal using foes (+18 on trip attempts), also has electrical damage.
Ice elemental can stagger with successful hits (with a save on each hit and the DC increases with augment summoning).
Giant Spider has the web ability.
Lemure's have nice immunities, early DR, see in darkness, and two attacks.
Granted none of these are going to lay planets low, but for an additional combatant at level 3 I think you might be expecting a bit much.
Agreed, I really like the Lightning Elemental. Actually, pretty much any of the Elementals are solid.
The Hyena is probably the best damager (1d6+3 plus trip), but doesn't have the special abilities of the elementals.
| Brakiri |
Hi folks,
thank you for your insights.
Now i have a better understanding of potentially good choices for SM II.
In retrospect my impression that SM II is to weak seems a bit hasty now :)
BTW: I just noticed that i played the eagle wrong. Because of weapon finesse, the strength boost due to AS has no effect on the melee attack bonus. Damn. ;)
The giant spider seems to be a very good choice for some battlefield control. If you use SM III and summon 1d3+1 spiders, you could easiely tone down a number of enemies.
Thanks again for your insights!
| E-G |
Air elemental is pretty great. Make sure to learn Auran and tell it to whirlwind attack. The DC isn't great and it only lasts for one round. Depending on the enemies' set up, however, you can hit a lot of people in one turn and you're likely to pick one up and injure another. Fly out over a body of water or some other unpleasant terrain and drop. One enemy is out of the fight for at least a round or two and with 100' of perfect flight the elemental can charge someone else on the next round.
The trick to the Elementals is knowing which one to summon in what circumstance. Tremorsense is a great power for a level 2 summon. If you're a wizard or summoner, have your Earth or Mud Elemental target an invisible enemy before using Glitterdust. It's more effective for ground-based invisible creatures than detect invisibility, which you probably haven't memorized/learned anyway.
| hogarth |
Air elemental is pretty great. Make sure to learn Auran and tell it to whirlwind attack. The DC isn't great and it only lasts for one round.
A Small air elemental's whirlwind can only pick up Tiny or smaller creatures, so that's pretty limited.
Creatures one or more size categories smaller than the whirlwind might take damage when caught in the whirlwind (generally damage equal to the monster's slam attack for a creature of its size) and may be lifted into the air.
| E-G |
PRD wrote:Creatures one or more size categories smaller than the whirlwind might take damage when caught in the whirlwind (generally damage equal to the monster's slam attack for a creature of its size) and may be lifted into the air.
Gah! I'm a big, fat cheater. I've been using the d20pfsrd (navigation is easier) and it only mentions whirlwind volume as a restriction. Small Air Elemental gets demoted to useful out of combat or for one round against fine or diminutive swarms.
| E-G |
What about against swarms?
Swarms made up of Diminutive or Fine creatures are susceptible to high winds, such as those created by a gust of wind spell. For purposes of determining the effects of wind on a swarm, treat the swarm as a creature of the same size as its constituent creatures.
| Wiggz |
Its elementals all the way for me. I have a Master Summoner who - for RP purposes - ONLY summons elementals, and I've never regretted it once.
Foes at range, flying or in a hard to reach place? Air Elementals and Lightning Elementals both have fly 100 even at the lowest levels - Lightning Elementals are wicked against armed or armored foes while Air Elementals have a Whirlwind that can, among other things, toss foes off ledges, walls or balcony's.
Want some devastating ground pounders? Try Earth Elementals - I've even used them to ambush because of their burrowing ability. Ice and Magma elementals have some wicked tricks and in the water Water elementals are king. Mud Elementals entrapment ability has a dozen uses and I've found as many for Fire Elemental's Burn ability as well.
A few points though:
I convinced my GM to alter the Augmented Summoning feat to allow for a +4 Dex, +4 Con bonus whenever a creature has Weapon Finess as a skill.
I built tiny elementals and a weaker version of medium elementals to round out my summoning lists at spots I and III. With Summon Monster IX you summon 2-4 Elder Elementals, pre-buffed. And I can do it 16 times a day with 20 minute durations each time. I laid seige to a capital city once all on my own - it was great.
I'm currently designing some new elementals - Ash, Stone, Steam, Slime and others, all pending GM approval. You can really get creative there.
| Wiggz |
Small Earth elementals and giant spiders are fantastic. Don't forget your earth mastery bonus.
Small earth elementals aren't so small.
If you take into account Earth Mastery, Power Attack and Augmented Summoning, you get a slam attack that's +9 to hit and deals 1d6+9 damage. Slap a Mage Armor buff on him and you've got a tank with a 21 AC, Improved Bullrush, all of the elemental immunities, darksight, tremorsense and the very useful ability to walk through walls.
Summon two and you're a much bigger melee threat than any 3rd level fighter could hope to be, and you can do it sitting back sipping on lemonaid...